If you need wikis/walkthroughs/videos just to play the game, isn't it just bad design?

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Jesterscup

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Terraria, Minecraft, Don't starve, the binding of Issac.....

Sure you don't 'need' the wiki... but jeez it's useful trail and error over thousands of combinations of items, mechanics that are never explained. But these are still good games, but that's partly because you still have the discovery mechanic, and it's only when you think/know there is 'something' but don't know what, or how to get past it. Needing a wiki doesn't mean it's a bad game in and of itself.
 

Dalisclock

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I would normally say yes, but the exception is "Kerbal Space Program". I haven't played it in a while so it's possible it's gotten better but the game doesn't really tell you much about how to do anything. You get a couple of tutorials on how to launch, how to change orbits and really not much else.

If you want to reach orbit, you need to either be familiar with how real spacecraft reach orbit or go to you tube and watch a user made video. That or a lot of trial and error. Not to mention you need to have a rocket able to actually reach orbit, which will probably take you a couple tries to design.

However, KSP has a very active user community and despite the lack of an actual manual, this is the one place I'm willing to say that it works.
 

TitanAura

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My general rule of thumb is this: If it is required to beat the game and get the default ending, you should NEVER have to look it up in a walkthrough to solve it. If the player can't figure it out, it should be their fault for not noticing the clues/hints left for them by the designer. However if it IS without question a "trial and error" solution, the designer is at fault.

As for optional side quests and such, those can be as hard or obtuse as the designer pleases.

I'd say that FEZ is one of the best examples of this. You can ABSOLUTELY beat the game without looking anything up and even find some of the hidden extras without help but getting 100% of everything? Literally impossible for one person to accomplish.
 

CaitSeith

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Bad design? Lack of resources (to include a competent tutorial)? Padding? Or intended gameplay? It depends on each case and in the expected player's skills.
 

Bad Jim

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I'm not entirely sure. It's usually just as easy to refer to the wiki as to read in-game documentation, and wikis are often far better. Official documents have errors, while errors on wikis are soon corrected. Wikis are usually updated whenever a patch changes the game mechanics. Wikis also document bugs and limitations of the game engine, which is almost unheard of in official documentation. Official documents often have vague descriptions of important mechanics, while wikis are generally very clear and thorough.

Wikis do tend to offer strategies and tips without spoiler warnings though. I'd like to try and figure out how to beat something myself.
 

Duster

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zinho73 said:
As long as you can complete the game it is not bad design. It might be, however, a design decision that you do not like, which is quite fair.
This I disagree with. I feel a video game is doing a bad job if it isn't remotely engaging.

Making an engaging experience is easy. You can hook with narrative, awe, challenging gameplay, whatever you want. When a game requires me to not have fun to progress, such as having a walking simulator session where you walk all the way from blight town to the top of the bell tower through mobs you've already killed many times and back, i'm not engaged.
 

zinho73

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Duster said:
zinho73 said:
As long as you can complete the game it is not bad design. It might be, however, a design decision that you do not like, which is quite fair.
This I disagree with. I feel a video game is doing a bad job if it isn't remotely engaging.

Making an engaging experience is easy. You can hook with narrative, awe, challenging gameplay, whatever you want. When a game requires me to not have fun to progress, such as having a walking simulator session where you walk all the way from blight town to the top of the bell tower through mobs you've already killed many times and back, i'm not engaged.
Let me complete my answer: what I meant is that it is not necessarily bad design. Of course it is possible that a game can be completed and is bad designed, but I was answering in the context of the topic.

There are a million things involved in game design. One of them is structure - if the game structure permits that you finished the game without external help, this little bit was well designed. However, simply ending the game might not give you access to many secrets, areas or some kind of unlockable that may be very hard to achieve without a guide - that's a design decision that people may or may not like, but it has nothing to do with the quality of the design itself.
 

Joccaren

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Does anyone remember when games had instruction manuals?
Was that 'bad design' as they needed a manual to explain the basics of the game so you'd have some idea of what you're doing, rather than just opening up the game and interrupting even experienced players on new installs with an in-game tutorial where it spells out the bare basics for you?
Honestly, the latter is bad design IMO, the former is good design, just not the normal.
These days, most games are obvious. Especially to people like us who have played games before. We see a health bar and mana/stamina bar, we know what it means. We know that if we control a character from 1st or 3rd person, it'll be WASD to move in most cases. Birds eye view is click to do most things in most cases. I is for inventory, J is for quest journal, and M is for map. It becomes really obvious when you see new people playing the game though, that this isn't stuff that you can just 'know', and it does need to be spelled out for some people.
You could include a tutorial in game, however that'll annoy experienced players, and if you're trying to make the game immersive can be a bit weird. You can include the tutorial, but alongside the story and interwoven with it. Still annoying old players. Make it skippable and you still annoy old players, as they have the choice of having how to play the game spelled out to them, even though they know, or skipping some of the story.

I doubt this is what OP had in mind when he posed the question, but with games coming online through digitial distribution these days, there are no instruction manuals - the trusty aid that would explain to you how to play a game. Not only does this necessitate a tutorial, it necessitates a very long, in depth and complex, boring, tutorial for more complex games. Think of the civilization series. They simply have advisors instead of a tutorial, as if it were to sit there and spell out how to do everything to you, it would take an age, and you'd stop playing of boredom.

Another example would be Dwarf Fortress. You NEED the wiki to get into the game. I mean, you kind of don't, but you won't at all get what is going on if you don't use the wiki. It has no tutorial, as its still being made, and no instruction manual. Is it bad game design?
Not really. An instruction manual would be the best option for the game, rather than an in-game tutorial, and even with that you wouldn't really get how to play the game. You'd understand its basic mechanisms, but you probably wouldn't see how they all come together. That's not bad game design. The design of the game is good and accomplishes exactly what it sets out to... Or at least part of that so far. Its just a very different, in depth and complex game that isn't easy to pick up. Its got a hefty learning curve that never really slackens. Its very fun because of this though, and the things you can accomplish because of the game's complexity make up for its difficult barrier of entry.

So, it really depends on the game IMO. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but in all likelihood the design flaw lies somewhere other than in you not being able to just play the game without needing to go through a manual of some sort, whether that be included with the game, or on an online wiki.
 

laggyteabag

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When I played Minecraft for the first time, all I knew was that I could punch trees to get wood, and that was the end of my minecraft knowledge. For the first 10 or so hours, I needed to have the wiki open just so I knew how to actually do things. I got better of course, and I was starting to memorise crafting patterns, but reading up on how to actually make things was pretty much a requirement. I didn't mind reading up on that, but Minecraft isnt even the most difficult game out there. Hell, look at Dwarf Fortress. I don't even want to know the amount of time it would take a person like me to understand what the hell I am meant to do. Is it bad game design? I don't know. Is it something that I am interested in? Not at all.