I'm a Democratic Socialist and here's why...

Recommended Videos

Ken Korda

New member
Nov 21, 2008
306
0
0
So, as a response to the thread with the 40 minute youtube video espousing neo-liberalism/the republican party here I present the counter-point and why I consider libertarianism to be an exceptionally bad idea.

(brace yourselves for a wall 'o' text)

First of there is a fundamental difference between the traditional American and European conceptualisation of property rights. The original assumption of those who first colonised the US was firmly based on the ideas of John Locke. That is (in summary) 'If a labour on nature then the product of my labour is rightfully mine and no one else has a claim to it'. This idea can be seen repeated throughout American political thought, form Objectivism to Libertarianism to Neo-liberalism.

However, the European perception is very different. In a region of relatively high population density (at the time), long established states and a history of feudalism property was considered in a very different manner. In Europe it was more common to encounter the belief that the state 'owned' the country and anything you gained from it, be it natural resources or personal wealth, you were allowed to take with the states permission. Thus, citizens owed their taxes to the state for the continued right to exploit the countries resources for personal gain.

This is not the main part of my argument but I hope it demonstrates why ideas of low taxation and minimal welfare are more common place in the US than in Europe. Both regions have very distinct concept of property.

So, in the 1950's at the University of Chicago an economics professor by the name of Milton Friedman developed what become know as Monetarist theory of Neo-liberalism. Basically, Friedman and his team produced a series of computer models which they claimed 'proved' that if markets are completely free and governments played as minor role in the market as possible then the GDP of a state would increase without fail. Competition will drive down prices and inefficient companies will fail leaving only the best quality products at the lowest possible prices. Furthermore, with low taxation and minimal regulation individual's will freely begin their own enterprises. Government institutions which are not run for profit have an unfair advantage over private enterprise and thus distort the market. Consequently any form of government welfare (including education and healthcare) must be completely removed.

I present now some criticisms of Friedman's model:

Firstly, it assumes that economic actors have complete understanding of the outcomes of their decision and perfect knowledge of the market. However, this is clearly not possible; it is very easy to imagine a situation in which, for example, a company does not fully understand a technology into which it invests thus artificially, it just follows the trends of the market so the price is overinflated and results in a 'bubble' a particular sector (for example ICT technologies in the 1990's). Economic actors are not perfectly rational.

Secondly, Freidman assumed that companies make decisions solely based on cost/benefit analysis. That is any choice by a profit making entity will be based on the cost such action will entail and the subsequent benefits gained from it. The choice which results in the greatest benefit for the minimum cost is the one which will always be chosen.

Yet, this again is not true. If a company only used these criteria to make a choice then every decision would be almost 'predetermined'. No matter who made the choices or which company made them the outcome would always be the same. If this were the case then human beings would not be required to run an economy, it could be done by a computer (as it was in Freidman's models). If there is anything to be learnt for the Soviet Union it is that a centrally planned economy breaks down under the weight of inefficiency. Companies use many other factors than costs and benefits to make decisions, such as long term company goals, research and development environmental preservation etc.

Finally, all historical attempts to introduce this doctrine have resulted in huge inequality and political repression.

The first state to attempt to introduce this ideology was Chile. The University of Chicago, funded by the American Government had, in the 1960's developed an exchange programme by which the best economics students of Latin American were allowed to study in Chicago and become indoctrinated by the neo-liberal ideology. However, at the time Latin America was experiencing a period of growth led by Democratic, Socialistic Governments and the 'Chicago Boys' were left outside of Politics.

However, in 1973 the Chilean military over-through the democratic government and installed General Augosto Pinochet as a new dictator. Soon the Chicago Boys were brought into the government and the restructuring began. In short the economy was destroyed and almost twenty years of violence, repression, growing inequality and torture followed. Despite Milton Freidman frequently visiting Pinochet and encouraging him to take his reforms even further.

This pattern was copied all across Latin America with both Brazil and Argentina experiencing the same fate.

Anyway, that is why Libertarianism, Objectivism, Neo-liberalism, Laissez-faire economics or whatever you want to call it is a bad idea. I realise I haven't actually, said why Socialism is better but this post is long enough as it is. If there is any interest in this thread I will happily demonstrate why I believe Governments have a very important role to play in the managing of the market economy.
 

Ago Iterum

New member
Dec 31, 2007
1,366
0
0
You don't need to say why the socialism part is better anyway, socalism's the way to go. A lot of my thoughts are similar to some of the points you've made here, I've just never sat and put it into words like you have.

A good read :)
 

mrfredy5

New member
May 22, 2008
39
0
0
Bravo my dear comrade. I agree with you to a high extent. I would agree with Ago Iterum though there needs to be a greater explanation off why socialism is a good thing.
 

mattttherman3

New member
Dec 16, 2008
3,105
0
0
Socialism is better, but not to the point of communism, there has to be a line in the sand somewhere. I prefer a society that helps everyone and not just the rich(fuck you fox news).
 

letsnoobtehpwns

New member
Dec 28, 2008
1,628
0
0
In my eyes, socialism was started because people wanted money by stealing it from the rich but their to lazy to. Obviously I really hate Obama.

edit: If you don't like the way how I see politics, then you might as well complain about my taste in games or call me a fag for wearing tight jeans. I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just giving a 15-year-old's view on socialism. Also, stop calling me retarded just because I said "to" instead of "too".
 

beddo

New member
Dec 12, 2007
1,589
0
0
That argument doesn't contain enough economic theory or application.

Though I agree that having no regulation doesn't work simply because corruption distorts the economy.

Minimising costs is a major part of business but like you say doesn't apply to all companies. For example it doesn't explain areas like high fashion and other goods and services that rely on ostentation to appeal to a niche and remain competitive.

Rising GDP isn't the same as a universal rise in the economic standard of living so it's not necessarily good for the Country.
 

beddo

New member
Dec 12, 2007
1,589
0
0
letsnoobtehpwns said:
In my eyes, socialism was started because people wanted money by stealing it from the rich but their to lazy to. Obviously I really hate Obama.
Ironically under Obama you would have had a better education and learnt the difference between 'too' and 'to'.
 

chipmunk2510

New member
Jun 7, 2008
56
0
0
letsnoobtehpwns said:
In my eyes, socialism was started because people wanted money by stealing it from the rich but their to lazy to. Obviously I really hate Obama.
Actually it started to create a utopia where everyone really is equal.
Well Communism is anyway.
Socialism is just one of the steps towards complete ownership by the state i.e Communism.
 

letsnoobtehpwns

New member
Dec 28, 2008
1,628
0
0
chipmunk2510 said:
letsnoobtehpwns said:
In my eyes, socialism was started because people wanted money by stealing it from the rich but their to lazy to. Obviously I really hate Obama.
Actually it started to create a utopia where everyone really is equal.
Well Communism is anyway.
Socialism is just one of the steps towards complete ownership by the state i.e Communism.
Thank you for clearing it up for me. I always looked at it as a form of communism.
 

Del-Toro

New member
Aug 6, 2008
1,154
0
0
Ago Iterum said:
You don't need to say why the socialism part is better anyway, socalism's the way to go. A lot of my thoughts are similar to some of the points you've made here, I've just never sat and put it into words like you have.

A good read :)
Of course he has to explain his point of view otherwise it carries no weight to those who don't share it. Also, saying that something is the way to go without giving your arguement some substance just makes you sound like an idiot. I may not share the original poster's viewpoint but I see it's well thought out and I respect that. On top of that, seeing as it is well explained it can be well followed and rebuked, at least I can make a point deeper than "nuh uh" or "no u". First of all, that video did give an example of a situation where laissez faire worked, Hong Kong. sure, there is poverty, but every society has some poverty, that is unnavoidable without putting Communism into action, and even then it would have to be executed perfectly, something nobody has managed to pull off yet. I don't know much about this 'Friedman" business, so I can't really comment on that, it's just a story I havn't heard so I really have no right to say anything about it. Socialism tends to work in small doses, things like a Welfare safety net and Universal healthcare being examples, but the consequences of such things are increased taxes. In other words, there is no one perfect system, so you can't really tout one way as "the way to go". Personally I'm an Authoritarian/moderate socialist, so I guess a Moderate Stalinist. Hell, Che Guevara swore on a picture of Stalin to free Cuba so I can emulate his philosophy and not be a mass muderer.
 

beddo

New member
Dec 12, 2007
1,589
0
0
letsnoobtehpwns said:
In my eyes, socialism was started because people wanted money by stealing it from the rich but their to lazy to. Obviously I really hate Obama.
Seriously though, why do you hate Obama?

What about him is so bad that you 'hate' him?

The current economic situation is largely due to the removal and alteration of legislation and regulation by the Bush administration.

Ironically as a lot of people vote based on their misguided Christian principles they will often vote Republican even though the Democrats will likely be able to offer them a better economic standard of living in respect to social welfare and healthcare.
 

Hallow'sEve

New member
Sep 4, 2008
923
0
0
The way I see it we can either have another Great Depression and still be American and keep to the Constitution. OR. We can change our government but burn our Constitution as a result, as the change in government will no longer make us true Americans.
Taking the first route will obvisouly be hard but we will still remain our identity. I have no idea if it will take another WWIII to get us out of it, it depends (who knows, we could solve it as a world issue, together). The second choice just has too much bad karma in it that'll come back to bite us in the ass.

(BTW, I don't see how socialism CAN'T lead to commusim)
 

Glerken

New member
Dec 18, 2008
1,539
0
0
Nivag said:
Ken Korda said:
The original assumption of those who first colonised the US was firmly based on the ideas of John Locke.
To not leave the island?
If only they had listened to him! These damn flashed wouldn't be happening.
 

Cliff_m85

New member
Feb 6, 2009
2,581
0
0
Socialism is nonsense. If you want world peace you need to have consumerism. It's money, trade, financial interdependance. That's what allows world peace. Peace is not love, it's business.

The french and english used to make war ever couple of minutes, they still despise each other but they decided not to fight because they'd rather trade with each other, collect the cash, and have a better life.
 

AntiThom

New member
Oct 26, 2008
66
0
0
Once upon a time there was socialism, and it was this really really dumb political theory, poorly implied by corrupt bastards, and widely accepted by morons. Wipe your own ass, live you own life, and I'll live mine.
 

Cliff_m85

New member
Feb 6, 2009
2,581
0
0
Del-Toro said:
Ago Iterum said:
You don't need to say why the socialism part is better anyway, socalism's the way to go. A lot of my thoughts are similar to some of the points you've made here, I've just never sat and put it into words like you have.

A good read :)
Of course he has to explain his point of view otherwise it carries no weight to those who don't share it. Also, saying that something is the way to go without giving your arguement some substance just makes you sound like an idiot. I may not share the original poster's viewpoint but I see it's well thought out and I respect that. On top of that, seeing as it is well explained it can be well followed and rebuked, at least I can make a point deeper than "nuh uh" or "no u". First of all, that video did give an example of a situation where laissez faire worked, Hong Kong. sure, there is poverty, but every society has some poverty, that is unnavoidable without putting Communism into action, and even then it would have to be executed perfectly, something nobody has managed to pull off yet. I don't know much about this 'Friedman" business, so I can't really comment on that, it's just a story I havn't heard so I really have no right to say anything about it. Socialism tends to work in small doses, things like a Welfare safety net and Universal healthcare being examples, but the consequences of such things are increased taxes. In other words, there is no one perfect system, so you can't really tout one way as "the way to go". Personally I'm an Authoritarian/moderate socialist, so I guess a Moderate Stalinist. Hell, Che Guevara swore on a picture of Stalin to free Cuba so I can emulate his philosophy and not be a mass muderer.
I don't like Che at all. When Che and Fidel Castro seized Cuba it was to the great delight of Che that he was given the task of being in charge of the firing squads. He set up a system for trials that lasted a few hours and named himself the judge of the individuals. He was the only judge. This would usually lead to low level Batista's being shot. But doesn't that sound a bit like a dictatorship? Che as the only judge deciding the fate of individuals in a trial system he set up where he would decide if the prisoner lived or died? "Alright, it is dictatorship. It's criminal to think of the needs of the individual," claimed Mr. Guevara. Add the famous quote of his: "The people you see today tell you that even if they should disappear from the face if the earth because an atomic war is unleashed in their names... they will feel completely happy and fulfilled." Yeah, great role model.
 

Anton P. Nym

New member
Sep 18, 2007
2,611
0
0
Hallow said:
The way I see it we can either have another Great Depression and still be American and keep to the Constitution. OR. We can change our government but burn our Constitution as a result, as the change in government will no longer make us true Americans.
I really don't see where "letting financiers play roulette with everyone's money and then run off with the winnings while leaving their losses for everyone else to pick up" fits into the US Constitution.

(BTW, I don't see how socialism CAN'T lead to commusim)
The Germans, Swedes, Danes, French, Dutch and Swiss have succeeded at holding off the creeping tide of Communism for a minimum of fifty years. Now admittedly it's possible that Americans aren't up to matching the fortitude of the French, but I'd like to think they could give it at least a close miss.

-- Steve
 

Ken Korda

New member
Nov 21, 2008
306
0
0
Well I'm glad there has been some interest in this topic so I will now attempt to produce a series of measures which I believe should be enacted by governments. However, I want to point out that any points I make here are not my own but those I have read from other sources. Secondly, these will be reduced and simplified arguments for the sake of space and for ease of reading (and typing) and as such I will be happy to expand in them in more detail if I fail at making my arguments clear.

Firstly, I believe the most important step Governments across the world should take is to control the power shareholders have in the decisions made by private industry. Now, the neo-liberal/objectivist/libertarian would argue that if an individual has put their money into a business then they should have a say in the running of said business directly proportional to the amount of money they contributed. Superficially, this would appear to make sense however where it has been established it has had rather unfavourable outcomes.

The major problem is the nature of shareholders. Most shareholders are not private individuals. It is much more common for shares to be owned by banking organisations. For example, on of the largest shareholder's in the USA is a pension fund. This form of shareholder is only interested in the maximisation of short term profits. If you can buy and sell shares as it suits you, you do not care about the long term interests of a company only short term increases in its share value.

Let's take the example of Boeing and Airbus. Boeing was previously, world leader in aviation and in the 60's/70's developed, at the cost of huge short term losses the 747 which eventually paid them substantial dividends. However, as stock markets were deregulated and shareholders were considered more important Boeing was too concerned with its share prices to perform the same trick and produce a 'super-jumbo'. It didn't want to risk the dip in share value associated with such large expenditure It then fell to state-owned company Airbus fill the gap in the market. Airbus developed the A380 and is now the market leader in civilian plane manufacturing whilst Boeing has to rely on its production of air traffic control equipment to stay afloat.

Allowing shares to be freely traded and for owners of these shares to have the sole voice in the running of a company results in businesses which are more interested in raising their share prices in the short term then managing the long term interests of the company.

For an example of an alternative, let us look at Volkswagen. Volkswagen is a company which does almost everything neo-liberalism says you should not do and yet who got the massive bail out form their Government, Volkswagen or GM?

Volkswagen's workforce work a 28.8 hour week for up to £23 and hour. Its workforce is highly unionised and its largest shareholder is the state of Lower Saxony. It is Europe's largest car manufacturer and in the period 1993-2002 its market share in Europe increased 3% and in the US 2% (largely at the cost of Ford and General Motors). Additionally, it limits its shareholder to 20% of the votes when making decisions.

This brings me to my next point: Trade Unions. Trade Unions in the UK and the USA have been largely removed form the business equation and it is time they were brought back. Probably the best example is found in Germany where 'works councils' represent employees and are given the right to be consulted on decisions regarding the companies future. Furthermore, these councils help identify problems in production relatively early and can rapidly bring problems to the direct attention of the management , thus making the company more efficient.

Finally, I wish to briefly discuss the matter of welfare. I believe it to be very important that workers be entitled to unemployment benefits and government funded training.

Unemployment insurance allows the workforce to become much more flexible. Companies will find it much easier to shed employees if these employees know they will have access to Government money until they find a new job. Most importantly, unemployment insurance increase the geographical flexibility of labour. Workers are much more likely to move to where companies need them if they are insured against the risk entailed. The same is true with entrepreneurs; people will be much more willing to begin their own companies if they are assured that should they fail they will not become destitute.

I feel the idea of government funded training is fairly straightforward and needs little explanation. If a government trains its citizens it greatly increases the availability and flexibility of workers throughout its economy.

There are a few other points but I won't go into them in this post. Anyway, I hope this is provocative enough and furthermore I hope it shows a possible model for co-operation between elements of market capitalism and democratic socialism.