I'm about to watch Star Wars 8. Can someone remind me what happened in 7?

[Ogoid]

Am I the only one who didn't think the Prequels were completely bad?

I'll own up to having some fondness for The Phantom Menace, probably as much out of nostalgia as for my being a sucker for bittersweet stories (and it doesn't get more bittersweet than rooting for an idealistic, bright-eyed kid who we know will grow up to be Space Hitler).

Attack of the Clones, though, basically killed my interest in the trilogy, and I only went to see Revenge of the Sith to get some of my friends to stop pestering me about it.

 

[Trunkage]

Does google and Wikipedia not exist anymore?

*Quick check*

Nope, they still exist.

Ohhh right, it was an attempt at making a statement and stir up controversy, while also 'virtue signalling' (I'm using that right, right?) to a certain type of nostalgic fan, lol, silly me

No, that the completely wrong way to use virtue signalling. It can only be against people who are progressive, just like the term PC. Conservatives would never virtue signal or demand people use certain terms for political discourse. Virtue Signalling thus cant be in Star Wars unless you talk about diversity

 

[Hawki]

I object to that statement. What makes the original trilogy memorable isn't the story. It's a perfectly decent story, it gets the job done, but that's not why Star Wars caught on. What makes Star Wars memorable is the iconography and I do think at that point there had been nothing in film that looked quite like it. Sure, it wasn't the first movie to do pulpy science-fiction but in Star Wars, it looked real. These worlds existed and people lived in them and they used that technology and they flew those starships and they wore those clothes. It didn't feel artificial, it felt, for the lack of a better word, immersive.

That's part of it, but while the story of the OT is relatively simple, it's presented in a very competent way - old tropes repackaged and all that.

but the way the prequels look and feel takes you out of them. A lot of the things they show look sterile and lack presence. For what it's worth it might be an artistic decision, I don't know, but the entire cinematography, the CGI, the greenscreens, the sets, remind you that you're watching a movie and that the world in front of your eyes isn't real.

I never really had that problem in terms of immersion bar a few scenes. As for the aesthetic, it is different, but I'd say it adds to the charm, that this is a different era. Aesthetic is a sticking point for me in Star Wars, and it's one of my gripes with stuff like Rogue One (which I have plenty of gripes with) and Empire (which is a weirdo film for me in regards to articulating why I'm not fond of it), but in the prequels, I'd say it works.

Otherwise the prequels are decent movies, if you ask me. In a lot of ways they're actually quite a bit smarter than the OT.

Better worldbuilding and concepts, I'd say that.

If we want to get into specifics, I'll agree that Last Jedi is far from being shit, but Rian Johnson sure did a shit job at what was his job. Well maybe half shit. He's credited as the main writer, and that's the movie's biggest fault. The performances were fine, but only for the material the actors had, which again comes back to the script. But every merit in TLJ's favor? Not due to Johnson. The cinematography was great, but that's what DP's are for. The music? He didn't make it. Special effects? Thank the thousands of office rats, not Johnson.

The director has final say over all those things. He has to frame the shots for the CG, has to decide how the editing is done (including music), etc. I'm not diminishing the work of those people (because movies, especially blockbusters, are very much collaborative efforts), but for better or worse, the director has to take the credit/blame for at least aspects of those things.

Course I also believe in scrutinizing the product more than the person, but the Internet doesn't seem to agree there.

TLJ's script under any scrutiny reveals itself to be both completely inept at storytelling as well a thorough ruination and assassination of nearly everything that's iconic about the series.

And still disagree.

It's not flawless, mind you, but I'd hardly go as far as that. Whatever flaws Last Jedi has (and it has them), it's still a net positive for me.

Edit: And now, on my Star Wars films ranking, TFA and TLJ have switched places AGAIN.

Gah!

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Oh you just want to bash Episode 7.
Look I hated it too but don't pretend this is about something else.

 

[Squilookle]

'A New Hope' was basically a western genera film, IN SPACE.

Where do I get my hands on all these mystical westerns with sword fighting and high speed aerial dogfights in them?

-Hell, all the baddies wore black while all the goodies didn't.

Thank god the Stormtroopers were never too far away to save the day eh?

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

'A New Hope' was basically a western genera film, IN SPACE.

Yes and no.
It totes the semantics of a Western - desert plains, saloon fights, gunslingers, bounty hunters, etc. - but structurally it's high fantasy through and through. But I'm sick of anybody quoting and explaining Campbell like it's a great find so I won't.

 

[fix-the-spade]

But all I can say is right now the second movie completely disregarded anything the first movie was building upon. Recent news and developments says that JJ Abrams had a plan to how his trilogy will pan out, and Rian Johnson pretty much scrapped everything.

If that name was anyone but JJ Abrams I might believe it.

Abrams writes script by taking someone else's existing script (Godzilla, Star Wars, ET and so on) then scribbling out a few lines and writing the words PLOT TWIST in red marker pen five or six times. Then he throws it at some poor schmuck who has to figure out a vaguely coherent story and they get the blame for the resulting shit show, even though Abrams is producer and gets final say on the script, which he usually re-writes again anyway.

His mucking up Star Wars is no worse than his mucking Star Trek, which was UNFORGIVABLE.

 

[Hawki]

His mucking up Star Wars is no worse than his mucking Star Trek, which was UNFORGIVABLE.

Abrams didn't "muck up" Star Trek. Prior to the Kelvinverse, Star Trek was dead, at least on the small screen and big screen (so that leaves, what, books?) Since the Kelvinverse, the movies have come back (and are among the highest rated Star Trek movies there are), and while less attritubale to the Kelvinverse directly, Star Trek's returned to the small screen via Discovery.

Whatever you think about those works, if you want to look at "mucking up" Star Trek, you might want to look at Nemesis (killed the film series) or Enterprise (ended the TV series), neither of which were under Abrams's tenure (they were under Rick Berman's, but I don't want to name names there because I understand that Berman is quite controversial, and I'd rather the product be analyzed rather than the person). Unlike Star Wars, the Kelvinverse didn't retcon anything to exist.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Neo-Nazis, having idolized the previous Nazis and noted their two Death Stars, proceed to build their own Death Star with modern technology, aided by the apathy of the government that beat the Nazis and had convinced themselves that Nazis weren't a problem anymore.

A core group of people who noticed that Nazis were on the rise again use their woefully crippled budget to try and fight back. Meanwhile, an ex-Neo-Nazi helps an antifa member escape and meets up with a force sensitive gal that the Darth Vader fanboy Neo-Nazi leader has an unhealthy crush on. The enn and the gal try to get info to antifa about the neo-Nazi's fanboy Death Star before the Neo-nazis can bring down the government.

They fail, but antifa manages to make it a pyrrhic victory. Meanwhile, Force gal manages to squeak out a win against the Vader fanboy who, in the span of 15 minutes had killed his old man, been shot by a gun that rag dolls normal people, got a laser sword injury from the only person in history to lose a laser sword fight against someone without a laser sword, and then run a few hundred meters, all while not trying to kill her.

Force gal then meets up with Aging War Hero who accidentally radicalized Darth Fanboy.

(Incidently, the "try to make fun of a thing by pretending to have a terrible memory" schtik is really funny, but maybe not why you think)

Also, "remember these classic movies? Why aren't modern movies as classic" thing is largely survivorship bias. Like, Star Wars, the original trilogy, has been with me my entire 33 years of life. It was the subject of movie marathons for literal decades. Of course I remember it better than a movie that is been around for three years. That's kinda obvious.

 

[wizzy555]

Does google and Wikipedia not exist anymore?

*Quick check*

Nope, they still exist.

Ohhh right, it was an attempt at making a statement and stir up controversy, while also 'virtue signalling' (I'm using that right, right?) to a certain type of nostalgic fan, lol, silly me

Virtual signalling is a real biological concept, it's a type of social signalling and can be divided into both costly and freeloading varieties (the freeloading ones are usually the ones people instinctively hate).

However social signalling theory has a few critics, they usually point out that everything can be defined as signalling in some shape of form.

But then of course you are obviously already know all that, you were just signalling to the left that you disapprove of the OP.

Or am I just signalling my superior smug intellect

Or am I just being too self aware now.


ARGH

 

[Dalisclock]

'A New Hope' was basically a western genera film, IN SPACE.

Yes and no.
It totes the semantics of a Western - desert plains, saloon fights, gunslingers, bounty hunters, etc. - but structurally it's high fantasy through and through. But I'm sick of anybody quoting and explaining Campbell like it's a great find so I won't.

Not to mention Liberal plundering from Kurosawa's hidden fortress and a almost complete copying of the 2nd half of "The Dam Busters".

Seriously, go watch "The Dam Busters" and right after that watch the attack on the Death star from "A New Hope" back to back. Lucas was pretty shameless there.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

No, that the completely wrong way to use virtue signalling. It can only be against people who are progressive, just like the term PC. Conservatives would never virtue signal or demand people use certain terms for political discourse. Virtue Signalling thus cant be in Star Wars unless you talk about diversity

Virtual signalling is a real biological concept, it's a type of social signalling and can be divided into both costly and freeloading varieties (the freeloading ones are usually the ones people instinctively hate).

However social signalling theory has a few critics, they usually point out that everything can be defined as signalling in some shape of form.

But then of course you are obviously already know all that, you were just signalling to the left that you disapprove of the OP.

Or am I just signalling my superior smug intellect

Or am I just being too self aware now.


ARGH

Twas a phrase I believe to be particularly meaningless, considering any opinion about anything placed in any public environment would basically fall into that, from the usage of the phrase online so far. Hence the not using it casually or comfortably. I was merely virtue signalling my distaste for it in the hopes of cookies and heroin, while also virtue signalling I know of google and Wikipedia, while knowing how to google and Wikipedia, for these knowledges are late-game knowledges and should grant me great internerespect...interespect? Weblove? Leetcred? Wtf term is it?

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Dont bother as a lot of stuff set up in SW7 is thrown out in SW8. Yes Rian was given freedom to do whatever he wanted, but even he should know as he was doing a sequel that was carrying on a story he should have intergrated his story with SW7. Personally, it would have been better if he had his own original movie instead of making the next part of an ongoing sequel.

 

[Squilookle]

'A New Hope' was basically a western genera film, IN SPACE.

Yes and no.
It totes the semantics of a Western - desert plains, saloon fights, gunslingers, bounty hunters, etc. - but structurally it's high fantasy through and through. But I'm sick of anybody quoting and explaining Campbell like it's a great find so I won't.

Not to mention Liberal plundering from Kurosawa's hidden fortress and a almost complete copying of the 2nd half of "The Dam Busters".

Seriously, go watch "The Dam Busters" and right after that watch the attack on the Death star from "A New Hope" back to back. Lucas was pretty shameless there.

That's where the dialogue came from, but for the actual death star trench run itself- There's a different movie you should see.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

His mucking up Star Wars is no worse than his mucking Star Trek, which was UNFORGIVABLE.

Abrams didn't "muck up" Star Trek. Prior to the Kelvinverse, Star Trek was dead, at least on the small screen and big screen (so that leaves, what, books?) Since the Kelvinverse, the movies have come back (and are among the highest rated Star Trek movies there are), and while less attritubale to the Kelvinverse directly, Star Trek's returned to the small screen via Discovery.

Whatever you think about those works, if you want to look at "mucking up" Star Trek, you might want to look at Nemesis (killed the film series) or Enterprise (ended the TV series), neither of which were under Abrams's tenure (they were under Rick Berman's, but I don't want to name names there because I understand that Berman is quite controversial, and I'd rather the product be analyzed rather than the person). Unlike Star Wars, the Kelvinverse didn't retcon anything to exist.

Now, see, I hate that argument. "Abrams saved Star Trek because it wasn't being made anymore." Saved it from what? Being forgotten? No chance of that happening. Same way Star Wars wasn't about to be buried in history just because there hadn't been a movie in 10 years (and no decent movie in over 30). Star Trek was doing fine being left alone, it stood on the history of 10 films and over 700 episodes of tv. It was in the past, but it wasn't dead.

I'm not as vitriolic about the Kelvinverse movies as I used to be, but only because I've learned to compartmentalize them from actual Star Trek. I'll have a spirited discussion with anyone about whether or not Berman killed Trek, or how bad Nemesis really was (or wasn't), or how good Enterprise really was (or wasn't) or really anything about Star Trek, seriously, I'm a raving mad fanboy, but J.J. Abrams didn't "save" it. That'd be like saying the Hobbit movies saved the Lord of the Rings movies.

 

[Hawki]

Now, see, I hate that argument. "Abrams saved Star Trek because it wasn't being made anymore." Saved it from what? Being forgotten?

Saved from going out on a low note maybe?

I'm not much of a Star Trek fan, but if the films had to end, far better to go out on Beyond (or heck, any Kelvinverse movie) than Nemesis). And while Enterprise is...okay, overall, it's my least favorite Star Trek TV series, and that isn't an uncommon opinion.

You can also thank the Kelvinverse for bringing Star Trek to a much wider audience. You could say that's bad, maybe, but financially and culturally, Star Trek 2009 was a revival of the brand.

Same way Star Wars wasn't about to be buried in history just because there hadn't been a movie in 10 years (and no decent movie in over 30).

Star Wars had its last "good" movie with Revenge of the Sith. TFA, TLJ, and Rogue One are average at best.

Star Wars also needed to retcon the majority of its lore to return to the silver screen, Star Trek didn't. The Kelvinverse is an example of how to handle a reboot/rebranding. The Force Awakens? Not so much.

I'm not as vitriolic about the Kelvinverse movies as I used to be, but only because I've learned to compartmentalize them from actual Star Trek.

I'm so sick of this argument. "No True Scottsman" is irritating enough by itself, but seriously, what's "actual" Star Trek? "Actual" Star Trek varies from person to person, series to series, and even within series. At its best, TOS is an analogy to the political situation of the sixties and the Cold War. It's also the series that goes on acid trips with Spock's brain, Greek gods, time travel, and parallel planets to Earth. Cut to Deep Space 9, and Star Trek has become something completely different. "Actual" Star Trek is a morphic concept.

You don't like the Kelvinverse? Fine. But the "it's not real Star Trek" argument is a hollow one.

That'd be like saying the Hobbit movies saved the Lord of the Rings movies.

Not the same thing, those are movie adaptations, Star Trek is its own franchise.