I'm fine with e-sports. but not in the X-Games, Not Cool.

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gargantual

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http://xgames.espn.go.com/events/2014/austin/article/10823607/major-league-gaming-host-call-duty-tournament-x-games-austin

Shoehorning that shit in, does insult BMXers Half-pipers, Parkourers who're are literally putting in the practice and conditioning.

Are media executives just wrapping "all that youth culture stuff with taco-bell burritoes and Mt Dew on the side" into one giant confusing bubbly insulting mass that cuts off folks 37 yrs and up. Because I'd hope none of us that understand what extreme sports, and competitive gaming are could think this is a good idea on principle. To me its not worth the cash.


To disavow competitive gaming from physical activity and body strain? Probably as long as it means more cash. Its sad that young entrepreneurs my age don't have the means, capital or media power to keep these entities as separate respectable things, which would one would think is common sense.
 

tippy2k2

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It's the same reason that Mountain Dew became a big partner of the X-Games; cross-markets.

You think any of those athletes drink Mountain Dew (or pop in general)? Most people who are in THAT great of physical condition are going to be like my step-brother, who refers to pop as poison. However, Mountain Dew is a young man's drink and the X-Games are a young man's sporting event and gaming is a young man's hobby, ergo...
 

gargantual

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I understand the cross market reasoning, but theres a whole cultural and definition lexicon of what these events are, thats in danger of getting diluted. Us internet folks and the parcipants know its bullshit, but also we can recognize older casual olympic sport events, for what they are even if we dont like em or understand them. But as we get older itd suck if our generation wrote x games and competitve pro gaming, two different things as part of the bulbous mass of youth culture they dont understand like dubstep. When theres significant differences in talent and skill to be recognized.
 

Phlogiston

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
That being said, e-sports at the X-games is confusing to me. Its worse than the suggestion of having skateboarding at the Olympics. Its horribly out of place.
Completely agree...in fact I don't really see how there are any subjective 'style' events at Olympic level where positions are judged on how pretty it looked: figure skating, synchronised swimming, artistic gymnastics, dressage to name a few from just peeking at the list of sports.

I understand there's skill and strength involved but the Olympic motto is "Faster, Higher, Stronger" - not - "Stylier"
 

USIncorp

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Phlogiston said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
That being said, e-sports at the X-games is confusing to me. Its worse than the suggestion of having skateboarding at the Olympics. Its horribly out of place.
Completely agree...in fact I don't really see how there are any subjective 'style' events at Olympic level where positions are judged on how pretty it looked: figure skating, synchronised swimming, artistic gymnastics, dressage to name a few from just peeking at the list of sports.

I understand there's skill and strength involved but the Olympic motto is "Faster, Higher, Stronger" - not - "Stylier"
Dude, I figure skate and I completely agree. The judging systems are totally effed. Basically the way they do it is they set a standard, which imo just diminishes skating's value as an artistic medium, but that's just me.
 

dyre

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Meh, I can't imagine the actual athletes are "insulted" by this...X-games competitors just don't seem that insecure to me.

But yeah, it's pretty out of place. Hopefully it'll just be a temporary measure, and once they get the Call of Duty "proof of concept" for E-sports on TV, maybe they'll add a bunch of other games and just make an annual gaming event. Like E3, but with competitive gaming.

Phlogiston said:
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
That being said, e-sports at the X-games is confusing to me. Its worse than the suggestion of having skateboarding at the Olympics. Its horribly out of place.
Completely agree...in fact I don't really see how there are any subjective 'style' events at Olympic level where positions are judged on how pretty it looked: figure skating, synchronised swimming, artistic gymnastics, dressage to name a few from just peeking at the list of sports.

I understand there's skill and strength involved but the Olympic motto is "Faster, Higher, Stronger" - not - "Stylier"
Be quiet...figure skating is awesome! >_>
 

gargantual

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
gargantual said:
Shoehorning that shit in, does insult BMXers Half-pipers, Parkourers who're are literally putting in the practice and conditioning.
You wouldn't believe how much time e-sports professionals put into practice. Teams of 5 playing 12+ hours a day 6/7 days a weak for a month for example.

That being said, e-sports at the X-games is confusing to me. Its worse than the suggestion of having skateboarding at the Olympics. Its horribly out of place.
I'm not dissing pro gaming. I know there is massive mental human fatigue, each sport has its own risk levels. but the people who ARE insulting all of it, are these marketers who put it into the X games. E - sports needs more of its own public establishment first. Shoehorning it into the X Games, IMO demeans it to the public eye as just 'that youth culture stuff' which we KNOW it isn't.
 

Therumancer

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I think it's a financial issue, and probably a good thing. People are thinking about this in terms of association, and while I see that point, it also occurs to me that the "X-games" are a much bigger label, have been around longer, and have deeper pockets. This alliance gives E-sports access to more resources, and a wider audience, not to mention deeper pockets for putting on events and competitions.

I'd imagine that the two are going to split up again once E-sports gets a bit bigger if this works, but right now your pretty much seeing the X-games giving "Major League Gaming" a boostie so to speak.

For the record, while many people disagree with this, I do not consider video gaming a serious sport, at least as it stands now. That said I do believe it can be a serious competitive pastime. I personally put it more in the league of chess, poker tournaments, and other competitive games. Yes a group of people can put in some huge amounts of time playing games to get ready for a tournament, but the same applies to other things less chess and other similar games with competitive aspects. It's just that one type of game is played with physical media, and the other is played electronically.

The big problem I see with E-sports, is the same one that applies to other forms of competitive gaming, and that is that it's not very exciting from the spectators perspective. Yes there are some people who can enjoy watching other people play StarCraft for example, but it's not something that rivets tons of people to their seats and is going to have people so psyched up that they say decided to start "fantasy StarCraft leagues" where they pretend to recruit the best players to put together fantasy teams and such for example. It's sort of like poker and chess, it has a niche, and it has been televised (as had pro-gaming occasionally) but it's small potatoes compared to sports.

One of the big things I think that hold back pro-gaming as well, and will continue to be a problem (aside from the rest of this discussion) is the human factor, or relative lack thereof. As a general rule when it comes to *most* games (but not all) the computer is pretty much king. The only reason a person can say beat a computer at a game like "Street Fighter" is because even on the highest difficulties the game is programmed to be beatable. Barring exploiting some kind of glitch, if you just flat out unleashed the full power of a computer on real people for a lot of these games (there are exceptions) it would be literally impossible for someone to win since no person can react faster than a computer can when it comes to this kind of thing. In comparison something like Chess is "human" enough where it wasn't just about the technical aspects of the game, and it took a long time to come up with a computer that could actually reliably beat human grandmasters and such. In comparison if a company like Capcom just flat out designed a fighting game without creating the AI to be beatable and win at any costs, even guys like Daigo, Justin Wong, or whomever the best are probably couldn't even touch it unless they found some kind of glitch or hole in the AI to exploit (beating it on a technicality rather than outplaying it). AI tends to be stupid in a lot of games like "StarCraft" and such as well because it's designed to be "challenging" not to just flat out overrun the player as a computer is probably capable
of doing, if Blizzard for example just flat out set out to make StarCraft unwinnable for humans, I'd imagine they could probably do it. This point actually adds to the entire mystique of the entire thing, the nature of chess for a long
time was something that couldn't be automated... and even now there is still a lot of question as to how often even a supercomputer can beat an actual grandmaster (most demands for a rematch have been rejected, largely because the point was more that the computer could technically do it, not how often it could), and even so computers were still programmed with algorithims based off of people and the analysis of countless games. It wasn't a matter of say the computer being able to say set build queues down to a billionth of a second, or simply react faster than a human hand could possibly move on a controller. I suspect for this reason it will be a very long time before anything electronic that is reflex, timing, or real time based will catch on in the mainstream even if it could be made flashy enough to be fun for the average person to observe. The very fact that there can be an E-gaming controversy over "botting" (ie having the computer do the work faster and more accurately than a person) sort of demonstrates the problem. People want to see things that it requires people to do.
 

Phlogiston

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SF2 sure, relatively simple situations with usually a perfect 'optimal' move for an AI to choose at any moment. Strategy games, nope. Way too much information and variables for an AI to be able to decide on what to do. Sure it'd be incredibly efficient but it can't strategise or plan ahead. Should it attack building A or unit B first, what about if it gets attacked at base, should it come back to defend or press on with it's attack? There's way too much that would need to be programmed and it could still be outplayed. It's why in most strategy games the AI is given buffs on the harder difficulties even in relatively discrete games with only a handful of options each turn.

I'd imagine MLG/Activision just stumped up a bucket load of cash to hang with the cool sporty kids.
 

Maximum Bert

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Therumancer said:
The big problem I see with E-sports, is the same one that applies to other forms of competitive gaming, and that is that it's not very exciting from the spectators perspective. Yes there are some people who can enjoy watching other people play StarCraft for example, but it's not something that rivets tons of people to their seats and is going to have people so psyched up that they say decided to start "fantasy StarCraft leagues" where they pretend to recruit the best players to put together fantasy teams and such for example. It's sort of like poker and chess, it has a niche, and it has been televised (as had pro-gaming occasionally) but it's small potatoes compared to sports.

One of the big things I think that hold back pro-gaming as well, and will continue to be a problem (aside from the rest of this discussion) is the human factor, or relative lack thereof. As a general rule when it comes to *most* games (but not all) the computer is pretty much king. The only reason a person can say beat a computer at a game like "Street Fighter" is because even on the highest difficulties the game is programmed to be beatable. Barring exploiting some kind of glitch, if you just flat out unleashed the full power of a computer on real people for a lot of these games (there are exceptions) it would be literally impossible for someone to win since no person can react faster than a computer can when it comes to this kind of thing. In comparison something like Chess is "human" enough where it wasn't just about the technical aspects of the game, and it took a long time to come up with a computer that could actually reliably beat human grandmasters and such. In comparison if a company like Capcom just flat out designed a fighting game without creating the AI to be beatable and win at any costs, even guys like Daigo, Justin Wong, or whomever the best are probably couldn't even touch it unless they found some kind of glitch or hole in the AI to exploit (beating it on a technicality rather than outplaying it). AI tends to be stupid in a lot of games like "StarCraft" and such as well because it's designed to be "challenging" not to just flat out overrun the player as a computer is probably capable
of doing, if Blizzard for example just flat out set out to make StarCraft unwinnable for humans, I'd imagine they could probably do it.
I agree with your point about it not being very exciting for a lot of people mostly because its hard for people to understand whats going on and they dont realise what the gamers are doing sports are very easy to understand sure some of the rules may be a little confusing but really they dont require much effort on the watchers side to understand, chess does and thats one of the reasons I dont think it pulls in the numbers as well.

Disagree a bit on the human factor its true that the computer could win every match in a lot of games but outside of high score chasers (which has a really niche audience even within gaming) competitive games are played against other people. Take away the human factor from fighting games or RTS for example and they would never have become as popular as they are (which is not to say they are hugely popular), the competitive side of them would not exist outside of human vs human matches its just not satisfying to face the comp or watch someone facing the comp for any long period.

I find this placement a bit weird I cant see their being a huge crossover market between fans of Xgames and competitive gaming but I guess thats why they chose Call of Duty as at least it stands the best chance of people being able to understand it on a basic level, I would be surprised if many found it interesting to watch though.
 

briankoontz

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Therumancer said:
The big problem I see with E-sports, is the same one that applies to other forms of competitive gaming, and that is that it's not very exciting from the spectators perspective. Yes there are some people who can enjoy watching other people play StarCraft for example, but it's not something that rivets tons of people to their seats and is going to have people so psyched up that they say decided to start "fantasy StarCraft leagues" where they pretend to recruit the best players to put together fantasy teams and such for example. It's sort of like poker and chess, it has a niche, and it has been televised (as had pro-gaming occasionally) but it's small potatoes compared to sports.
That's cultural, as South Korea can tell you where Starcraft is a really, really big deal. It's also a matter of capital investment in marketing to build an audience (one aspect of building a culture).

It's impossible to say how American, South American, and European culture is going to change in the coming years, but one plausible outcome is an increase in the importance of E-sports.

There's a lot of room for improvement in the presentation of E-sports and more games can be designed with esports in mind, both of which will greatly help the emerging esports culture.