I'm getting tired of the hyperbole being thrown around about Bioware and "art"

[veloper]

Someone still needs to define "art".

Then they can follow it up by defining "artistic integrity".

'Cause those terms are becoming pretty damn meaningless.

Becoming? I thought they pretty much started off that way.

I'll accept 2 definitions, the common broad defintition and the narrow definition:

1. art = anything made by man
2. it's Art if it costs a fortune

Oh god why the ignorance.

Art is anything intentionally made by man to be primarily judged on it's aesthetics(meaning no rational thought is involved in judging). Art doesn't mean deep, good, magnificent, or whatever.
It's just a word used to label certain things. Video games are art. The fact that it's even discussed on BBC baffles me. It's retarded.

Fucking hipsters.

I'm sorry, but we cannot use your definition. Games aren't made to be judged on aesthetics, rather games are made for profit and judged on entertainment value.

Look up the definition of aesthetics. Aesthetics doesn't mean looks.

I think he understood the definition just fine.

Hardly, since aesthetics mean entertainment value, and video games turn a profit only if they're entertaining.

I guess we really need to feed you your own advice and quote the definition for you:
"Aesthetics is a branch of philosophy dealing with the nature of beauty, art, and taste, and with the creation and appreciation of beauty."

Entertainment nowhere in sight. Moreover, games are based on rational concepts.

Gameplay design is mathemetics and empirical data. For strategy games it's unit costs, opportunity costs, dps, etc. Effective character builds in RPGs like WOW are basicly math problems, solved by a few and copied by everyone.
For flight sims and realistic racing games: does it handle like the real vehicle. Empirical data. Even for a platformer it's still a question of how well do our playtesters perform.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No it is and always will be their choice.

And yet, if their choice, upon receiving feedback, is to say "I guess we will change it", we get to hear about how they're setting the medium back decades and how they've sacrificed their artistic integrity? We get to hear you wringing your hands about where it's all going to end? I don't see much allowance for "choice" in that formula.

I've said "This is crap, change it because you CAN", not "Change it because you MUST". I think it's in their best interests to change it. Hell, I think it's in the best interests of ART to change it. But I've never said they MUST change. Others, however, you included, and MovieBob up there, are saying they MUST NOT.

And nowhere have I ever said the fans should be IN CONTROL of the franchise. I've argued against authorial fiat, not in favor of turning around and giving it to fans instead, which would be equally retarded.

Edit:
Btw on your none point of your choices making a difference. Your choices do make a difference.
http://www.abload.de/img/jhtqyrqxxg.jpg

Oh TREMENDOUS differences, yes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Oh ok

"This is crap, change it because you CAN" isn't you demanding change. Got it. You dont want control....

No, that's feedback.

"Don't change it, you mustn't change it, you are sacrificing your artistic integrity, we're all going to go tumbling down a slippery slope" is no less grasping for control if you're going to be absurd about it.

If you respect the creator so fucking much, respect that they decided to listen to feedback. Why is that hard to understand?

 

[HemalJB]

To all who feel that "art is somehow an unequivocal expression of its creator" I give you this link:
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-role-of-the-player
Hopefully this vid will show you why a lot of people are pissed about the lack of choice in the ending of ME3, of how our choices eventually did not have as great a consequence on the outcome as we originally thought and why we're angry with it.
And for all who agree, share this link with all who feel we are wrong.

 

[veloper]

Mathematizing something doesn't make it math. You can mathematize music, and it will still be art.

Aesthetics, what you defined, is a branch of philosophy, I mentioned aesthetic judgement, which is something different.

GTFO and take a philosophy class.

You haven't actually posed YOUR definition of aesthetics (or aesthetic judgement like you want to call it just now), beyond saying "meaning no rational thought is involved in judging"
I proved there is much rational thought involved, both in the creation AND judging, so games are not a matter of aesthetics then.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And again you go for something I never said.

Please point me to my quote where I am going against them changing it rather than going against the people demanding them to change it.

Like you do. Feedback stops at "this is crap". An order begins the second you put in the "change it" No matter what your reasons are.

So this is now boiling down to semantics with you, then?

1. This is the worst pile of shit I've ever seen, bar none = acceptable criticism.
2. This is the worst pile of shit I've ever seen, bar none, maybe you should consider changing it = the end of all art as we know it.

I'll leave this PA quote here, from Tycho:

Ownership is a very complicated business when it comes to cultural product, though. They succeed by virtue of the fact that we, as players, incorporate these stories into our lives. I?ve always wondered what the conflux of digital goods, interactive storytelling, algorithmic content creation, and democratized funding mean for an idea like authorship. I think we?re beginning to find out.

I mean, god forbid, as we watch a new medium mature as an art form, that we adopt our concept of authorship to fit the nature of the medium. Rather than clinging to antiquated notions of authorship as it applies to other mediums, and forcing this new one to adhere to them.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

And that is the second time you tried to mislead the argument.

Btw you still havn't quoted me being against them changing the ending, rather than the people demanding it changed. You dont get to drop that and then just leave.

But let us use your method. See if i can do this

Change your ending because you can = not an order

Draech, your slippery slope argument, posted in a thread about the hyperbolic presumption that a change to ME3's ending would be an assault on Art, came across as "if this is changed, god help us all". As you've since refined your position to indicate you're worried about fans feeling empowered to assume a position of authorial control over the content they're fed, I changed the tone of the discussion. Presumably because I thought this was a DISCUSSION, and not a slap and tickle fight in which you bicker over semantics, fuss about the nebulous distinctions of "demands vs feedback", and persist in comparing a video game to a television show.

Oh you just give it away in the hopes from an argument from authority?

You do believe you have ownership over it. Just stay with your stance then. You should have kept arguing that video games were different from other mediums because they are publicly owned.

I quoted a perspective that I thought nicely summarized a perspective I hold that has never changed. If you want to view that as an appeal to authority, you go right ahead. Appeals to authority do seem to be your stock and trade, as you've been trumpeting the righteousness of authorial fiat since this debacle started.

I believe that the player of a game has more...not complete...more ownership/involvement in the experience then the reader of a book or the viewer of a show. Yes, I do.

 

[veloper]

You know Google exists?

Aesthetic judgement is judging (wether something is apealing or not) based on your sensory-emotional response to it. Which can be shortened to "not judging it with rational thought".

You didn't prove shit. You simply stated something.

You need to up your comprehension skills.

No need to become rude. We are judging games with rational thought. I even gave examples and there is no counter argument. Not an aesthetic judgement then.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Aesthetic judgement is judging (wether something is apealing or not) based on your sensory-emotional response to it. Which can be shortened to "not judging it with rational thought".

There are people that are still clinging to the artificial distinction between "emotion" and "rationality?"

Let's put it this way: if something annoys me or makes me happy, it does so for reasons. I can unpack these reasons and express them as a "rational" judgment of the thing I am reacting to. Other people might or might not find this judgment persuasive, depending on what reasons they have for liking or disliking things.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I have no clue what you are talking about. Please quote it.

If this method of thinking becomes common place I fear for where it could end.

Given the OP and the discussion in the thread, I misunderstood WHICH slippery slope you were concerned about.

Regardless, I do think you are completely overstating the ability, or even the volition, of an audience to "bully" developers into doing what they want. Can you acknowledge that part of the reason the pressure on Bioware is as high as it is, and the clamor as loud as it is, is due to the fact they bungled it as badly as they did? If you've managed to almost universally antagonize your fan base with your artistic choices (and seriously, can we not agree that the "art" is not the only thing at question when it comes to the quality issues with that ending), then are you not looking at what could most charitably be described as failed art? Why NOT revisit it, at that point? What is there to be lost? A piece of shitty art that few people enjoyed?

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I agree but good luck getting any of the "Video games are art" crowd to believe that. They are pretty set in their ways. As I said in another thread, we are way too blanket about the whole "video games are art". Even if they were, not all of them are. A lot of them are just cash grabs, designed to suck as much money out of you as possible, hell, I'd argue the majority are. Therefore I find it hard to get all upset about Bioware changing a god awful ending to their game. It isn't like they made that ending out of the warmness of their hearts, they rushed it because that is what Bioware does, at least since they became part of the EA machine.

 

[Karnesdorff]

Edit:
Btw on your none point of your choices making a difference. Your choices do make a difference.
http://www.abload.de/img/jhtqyrqxxg.jpg

Wait, what? I'd confidently say about 75% of that stuff isn't in the game. You have actually played through the game to see this for yourself, yeah?

K.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

thats actually a really good point.. we have a mass effect novel full of plot holes, continuity errors and characters that were changed for no reason and bioware said they would change it.. i dont remember anyone talking about artistic integrity then and i dont see it any different from whats happened with ME3

Presumably it's because this time a few of the more fiery detractors had the temerity to use the word "demand", changing it from a request to a loaded gun.

Wait, what? I'd confidently say about 75% of that stuff isn't in the game.

Eesh, you're right. I just took a closer look. A lot of that stuff ISN'T in the game.