I'm getting tired of the hyperbole being thrown around about Bioware and "art"

[Lytrise]

I think the real reason it gets to me though is just the general attitude of the people who are so desperate for the whole world to think of games as art.

Seriously, throughout all the different ME3 ending threads as well as threads like this I've seen around two dozen posts all from separate people saying how the people who didn't like the ME3 ending didn't like it simply because they're all to stupid to see the "art" in it.

I think they might be confusing the difference between it being complex and it being strange and obscure. I don?t have any doubt that whomever put the endings together had some sort of vision in mind for them (it? It was really more just one largely), but regardless it had trouble coming across to the people playing.

What a lot of people forget is the fact that it is an interactive game in general and that is why people are so livid about it. With something like a movie, you spend a few hours watching it and it is very outside of yourself. With something like a game, particularly something as interactive as Bioware?s games, there is a difference in how people will receive it both for how personal it becomes for you experiencing it and also the sheer amount of time you invest in it. In some ways I think it?s probably harder to make a game because of those differences an opposed to more passive mediums.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Like I told guppy.

You are still at the mercy of the original artist. You have no choices they artist didn't make for you.

It doesn't matter what kind of medium it is. The artist is still in charge of his art. You may be under the false impression that because you have influence within the artwork that you should have influence outside.

You are still the audience. No more no less. You only get what the artist provides.

Yeah but the door is OPEN to branching, parallel narratives. This is why books and films are such poor analogues. Outside of Clue and Choose Your Own Adventure there really aren't any good examples of parallel narrative in these mediums. As soon as you invite the player to be part of shaping the narrative, have you not given them an invitation to exert a degree of authorial influence?

Imagine you and I were sitting down, and I told you I was going to tell you a story. And at numerous intervals, you could tell me which way the story was going to go. Then we got to the ending, and I said "Whoops, hands off the ending! You can't change that." Doesn't that seem a little arbitrary?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

At this exact point, you kinda lost all your credibility.

I don't agree with Draech on his fundamental position regarding the request to have the ending changed, but his posting of an erroneous flow chart doesn't say anything about his "credibility". All it says is he has a confirmation bias, as do we all. He was pretty sporting, too, and owned up to it, which is a credit to him.

 

[zefiris]

Where is the petition to change the ending to lost?

This is not a logical argument, it's a bad, bad argument, and here is why:

There is no such petition to lost since people didn't care enough to make one. That's all.

Exactly like in the real world. Some people go and return bad products. Other people think it's too much of an effort.
Just because one customer didn't return a bad product doesn't mean the next customer that returns a bad product and demands a satisfactory one is wrong.

The mere fact that you thought this argument had any merit whatsoever is troubling

And yes, books got endings changed (like Sherlock Holmes). So did movies. Artworks got changed at the request of the one requesting it, if they weren't satisfied. And video games got their endings changed, too - see a certain game starting with F.

Face it: These things change already. This isn't new. Thinking that it is totally new shows you don't know much about art.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ill tell you how I see it.

You are dungeon Master in a game of dnd.

Because I am playing with you I think i should have as much power as you.

That is the argument i see you doing.

The players in a tabletop RPG have significantly more power and input than you're suggesting fans of Mass Effect should expect to enjoy. Much like if Bioware expects to retain any kind of fan base they need to consider and listen to what people are telling them regarding their product, if a DM expects anyone to show up at his games he needs to take the opinions and wishes of his players into account.

This is not an all or nothing scenario. You keep wanting to draw a thick black line between absolute authorial divinity and the lunatics running the asylum. There's a middle ground.

 

[Vegosiux]

Ill tell you how I see it.

You are dungeon Master in a game of dnd.

Because I am playing with you I think i should have as much power as you.
That is the argument i see you doing.

Well, I always saw the DM as the one who manages the story, not necessarily tells it. A good DM will not railroad his players to force them to go through his plot, but will instead adapt to what the players want. A bad DM will go all butthurt if the players stray from "his" story and pull a rocks-fall-everyone-dies.

Basically, a good DM does let the players have some authorial influence in the story, a bad DM thinks of a D&D game more like his script that everyone should follow.

 

[guitarsniper]

It might be just me but I feel like the definition of art is something that is totally unique to a person. I, for example, think that neither video games nor most films or music can ever really be art because my personal definition of art is that it clearly reflects a SINGLE PERSON'S artistic vision. That's just how I feel about it. This means that for me, the discussion is somewhat moot. Also, because I'm getting somewhat fed up by the rage, I'm gonna go and replay some of the best 20 hours in gaming ever--the REST of Mass Effect 3.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Key words

Opinion and wish

Not orders and demands

My entire stance summurized.

This is quite the rabbit hole of semantics you're tumbling down. I understand that you're fussed about a selection of people not asking nicely enough, but that doesn't mean the act of asking is inherently wicked.

 

[goliath6711]

For one, The ending being changed hasn't even been confirmed yet so all this wahhh now it's not art BS can stop.

For two apart from scale, why is this different from movies having test screenings, then changing the ending when they're told it currently has a fucking stupid one?
Or how is it different from a director's edition being released, normally they have radically different endings.

A test screening is still not the final product. It's basically the movie equivalent of a demo and can still be changed. (Remember how the NBA Elite demo more or less led to the cancellation of that game?) And as far as director's editions go, people aren't calling for them to replace the original theatrical release. People aren't demanding that all original versions of Superman II be destroyed and replaced with the Richard Donner version. Besides, in Mass Effect 3's case it's not the director that wants to make the changes.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"It is crap change it"

Is not asking.

This is quite a position you're putting players in.

They can't tie their dissatisfaction with a threat to no longer purchase Bioware products without you perceiving it as 'bullying'.

By the same token, they can't vote with their wallets by not buying any more Bioware products because the effect on the bottom line and the message received by Bioware are the exact same thing.

So what are we left to do at this point? Without us "forcing their hand"? Because I assure you, any capitulation on their part is entirely due to a perceived threat to the bottom line, not because some ingrate on the internet used excessively demanding language.

 

[applesandoranges]

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