I'm getting tired of the hyperbole being thrown around about Bioware and "art"

[9thRequiem]

I'm in the same position - the "OMG Games are now not art and are ruined FOREVA" rhetoric is both unhelpful, and in my book, purely a knee-jerk defensive reaction to something that is perceived as potentially causing us harm (something MovieBob has previously spoken out over - go figure).

Fact is, all art forms change pieces as a result of criticism, either informed ("This sucks and I have to look at it!") or through money ("I'm not paying you for this crap"). Its been long happening with paintings, sculpture, music ... The difference was, in the recent past, media has allowed things to be spread quickly and irrevocably before patron influence could force this change.
I'm sure were it easier, many artists would revisit and amend their work later on.

On top of that, Fallout 3 already did this exact thing, and I'm pretty sure the sky didn't fall.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"This is crap i wont buy from you again" isn't "this is crap change it"

I have no problem with people voting with their valets.

I say for the last time. It is the demands I have a problem with.

The demand is identical either way, Draech. Bioware is acting out of a perceived necessity to salvage the popularity and fan appeal of the IP they spent 5 years developing. Unsurprisingly, they are unwilling to adopt scorched earth tactics with their fan base to protect the dubious integrity of the ending they clearly slapped together with little to no concern for quality or consistency.

That's where all the force of this "demand" is coming from. Not the language. The THREAT TO LEAVE. That's the "bullying" you're so concerned about. That's WHY they're giving in. The "bullying" is consumers exercising the only real right they have...the right to take their business elsewhere. And because they're GOOD consumers, because they're LOYAL customers, they're telling Bioware why, and what they could do to fix it.

And because they're being LOYAL CUSTOMERS instead of just fucking off and taking their business elsewhere, they get called names.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It is no where near the same

The Rhetoric of "we deserve", petition and your own opinion of you having part ownership of the medium is not "we are just letting them have feedback the will be unable to ignore".

Voting with your valet and leaving your complaints on the forums isn't the same as Demanding refunds and content.

Demanding refunds and content is a completely impotent gesture. It is not in any way, shape or form "bullying", nor does it force the developer's hand.

Stating that you're done as a fan and slamming the brand at every opportunity can and apparently will force the developer's hand.

When you complain about "bullying" you're complaining about effective protest. You're complaining about the result. I could demand you change your career this instant, but you wouldn't feel "bullied" into action no matter how strident I became.

If you want to turn this entirely into a Miss Manners column and talk about how to ask more nicely for things, we can do that, but you've waded into the deep end on the defense of artistic integrity, and authorial control, drawn analogues to traditional media, etc, etc. You haven't exactly done a great job of staying on message.

And really now, this is the second time you've said "voting with your valet". I let it go the first time, but it's too funny a typo to consistently pass up. How would that work? Would you give him your id and send him to go vote for you?

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

For one, The ending being changed hasn't even been confirmed yet so all this wahhh now it's not art BS can stop.

For two apart from scale, why is this different from movies having test screenings, then changing the ending when they're told it currently has a fucking stupid one?
Or how is it different from a director's edition being released, normally they have radically different endings.

A test screening is still not the final product. It's basically the movie equivalent of a demo and can still be changed. (Remember how the NBA Elite demo more or less led to the cancellation of that game?) And as far as director's editions go, people aren't calling for them to replace the original theatrical release. People aren't demanding that all original versions of Superman II be destroyed and replaced with the Richard Donner version. Besides, in Mass Effect 3's case it's not the director that wants to make the changes.

True but the argument some people seem to be making is that as soon as something is changed that's it, we've royally fucked up and games are no longer art. Even though Fallout 3 already changed its ending with DLC and noone said this back then.

 

[lacktheknack]

But if I went crazy maybe half the things on the Internet would make sense.

<youtube=dZfmPREbTd8>

Do you WANT things like this to make sense?

OT: Meh, it'll die out soon.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You can buy it or leave it. Dont mistake the producers seeking your approval as ownership. There is an entire attitude out there like you. Because you played it you get to decide the ending. Because you paid for it you get to decide the ending.

Because I paid for it and played it, I have the right to tell them the ending they provided me with is crap. I have the right to say "fix it, or this is the last of your products I'll be buying". They have the right to listen, or to risk me walking away by hand waving the problems as art. I'm glad there's "an entire attitude out there like me", of people who feel they have the right to question being served up garbage because someone got lazy/cut corners at the last second. You go on defending it though, because you're fussed about the semantics of the word "demand". You go on defending the noble corporation against the vagaries of its sinister fan base, and you go on defending lazy, slipshod garbage under the auspices of art. If that's what floats your boat, you're welcome to hold on to it as tight as you can.

 

[Smithburg]

Why does something suddenly become art when it's shitty... >.>

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I dont go defending nothing. Dont paint me with a brush I didn't use.

I am saying show the same respect you would show a movie or a book. Your opinion and nothing else. Its not much to ask.

I'm showing them MORE respect than I traditionally would. That you can't recognize that speaks volumes of your understanding of the fan/creator dynamic.

 

[Smithburg]

I am saying show the same respect you would show a movie or a book. Your opinion and nothing else. Its not much to ask.

Have you seen what has been happening with star wars? people go nuts over that...

But this is slightly different, this is a game about player choice, where one of the advertising hooks were the different endings and seeing your choices affect it. That did not happen plain and simple. So at the least it is lying in advertisement. And this is video games, not movies, not books, not sculpture, not painting. The same way that criticism to movies does not apply the same to sculpture, even though they are both art, is the same way video game criticism doesn't apply to movies, or books. You can compare, but it isn't a perfect comparison there are differences. Video games are their own art and will have their own problems because of that.

 

[flames09]

NO it is no longer art,

When it is made to be mass produced to the consumer and not just to show the inner creativity of the team who made it, it is no longer art.

Those who sell a product to a consumer base have a moral obligation to listen to whom they sell there product to, if it does not meet the standards many of these people may $60 or more for than they should either change it or find another way to address the problem

LIKE ANY OTHER MASS MARKETED PRODUCT

 

[Smithburg]

I am saying show the same respect you would show a movie or a book. Your opinion and nothing else. Its not much to ask.

Have you seen what has been happening with star wars? people go nuts over that...

But this is slightly different, this is a game about player choice, where one of the advertising hooks were the different endings and seeing your choices affect it. That did not happen plain and simple. So at the least it is lying in advertisement. And this is video games, not movies, not books, not sculpture, not painting. The same way that criticism to movies does not apply the same to sculpture, even though they are both art, is the same way video game criticism doesn't apply to movies, or books. You can compare, but it isn't a perfect comparison there are differences. Video games are their own art and will have their own problems because of that.

I dont think the collective shit people took over SW is a good example to use on how to handle being a fan.

Thats just it though, people went nuts over it. I think people are going overboard on this but I do think the end to ME3 was badly written and hastily done. Hell, if they really wanted it to be viewed as an art form for things like creative vision, then they shouldn;t let their creative vision slip away during crunch time when EA tells them to hurry up, they could have delayed the game a bit. That would be standing by your artistic integrity

 

[Andothul]

Art for the sake of art and Art for profit are two different things.

You wouldnt ask an artist to redraw his creation because you saw it on the street and didn't like it but if you commissioned a painting of your mother and it came out looking like E.T. you would tell him to change it and get it right.

As consumers we have every right to demand the level of quality that is advertised.

 

[ablac]

You make good points. However Moviebob is not level headed. even when hes right it tends to be for the wrong reasons and when hes wrong he can be so petulant its truly incredible for a guy who has shown himslef capable of making a good argument. I think its pointless to change the ending because it only came about via whining and Bioware was forced. The whole situation is bad. However the ending was against everything the game stood for before, about making your choices matter. Thats whats wrong not false advetising as that sounds too clinical for something so sentimental.