I'm getting tired of the hyperbole being thrown around about Bioware and "art"

[Smithburg]

I am saying show the same respect you would show a movie or a book. Your opinion and nothing else. Its not much to ask.

Have you seen what has been happening with star wars? people go nuts over that...

But this is slightly different, this is a game about player choice, where one of the advertising hooks were the different endings and seeing your choices affect it. That did not happen plain and simple. So at the least it is lying in advertisement. And this is video games, not movies, not books, not sculpture, not painting. The same way that criticism to movies does not apply the same to sculpture, even though they are both art, is the same way video game criticism doesn't apply to movies, or books. You can compare, but it isn't a perfect comparison there are differences. Video games are their own art and will have their own problems because of that.

I dont think the collective shit people took over SW is a good example to use on how to handle being a fan.

Thats just it though, people went nuts over it. I think people are going overboard on this but I do think the end to ME3 was badly written and hastily done. Hell, if they really wanted it to be viewed as an art form for things like creative vision, then they shouldn;t let their creative vision slip away during crunch time when EA tells them to hurry up, they could have delayed the game a bit. That would be standing by your artistic integrity

I dont really have a problem with them changing their product according to feedback.
I have a problem with how the so called "fans" are acting.
The whole "take Mass Effect back" embarrassment.

By all means and accounts developers far and wide are able to handle critique, but we are no where near the a place were we can handle that responsibility.

I kinda think both sides are being embarrassing, the fans that are taking it too far, and the industry people that are just making fun of the fans like we're all just spoiled brats. There are arguments to both sides, but it needs to be handled more responsibly on both ends

 

[Smithburg]

Art for the sake of art and Art for profit are two different things.

You wouldnt ask an artist to redraw his creation because you saw it on the street and didn't like it but if you commissioned a painting of your mother and it came out looking like E.T. you would tell him to change it and get it right.

As consumers we have every right to demand the level of quality that is advertised.

Assumed quality. As it applies to creative works, quality is subjective.

Bioware was not given strict guidelines as to how the series was to end, so it cannot be said that they failed to follow them.

An artist makes paintings of dogs. You commision them to "make a painting" under the assumption that they will make another dog. Then they make a cat. Would you then demand that they paint you a new one, and preferably, for no extra cost?

In this instance it could be said that they said they were going to paint a dog after you said make a painting, then made a cat. The problem is the whole "Choices changes the ending for multiple differences, endings are tied up, questions answered" which didn't happen, which would technically be false advertising.

 

[Smithburg]

I am saying show the same respect you would show a movie or a book. Your opinion and nothing else. Its not much to ask.

Have you seen what has been happening with star wars? people go nuts over that...

But this is slightly different, this is a game about player choice, where one of the advertising hooks were the different endings and seeing your choices affect it. That did not happen plain and simple. So at the least it is lying in advertisement. And this is video games, not movies, not books, not sculpture, not painting. The same way that criticism to movies does not apply the same to sculpture, even though they are both art, is the same way video game criticism doesn't apply to movies, or books. You can compare, but it isn't a perfect comparison there are differences. Video games are their own art and will have their own problems because of that.

I dont think the collective shit people took over SW is a good example to use on how to handle being a fan.

Thats just it though, people went nuts over it. I think people are going overboard on this but I do think the end to ME3 was badly written and hastily done. Hell, if they really wanted it to be viewed as an art form for things like creative vision, then they shouldn;t let their creative vision slip away during crunch time when EA tells them to hurry up, they could have delayed the game a bit. That would be standing by your artistic integrity

I dont really have a problem with them changing their product according to feedback.
I have a problem with how the so called "fans" are acting.
The whole "take Mass Effect back" embarrassment.

By all means and accounts developers far and wide are able to handle critique, but we are no where near the a place were we can handle that responsibility.

I kinda think both sides are being embarrassing, the fans that are taking it too far, and the industry people that are just making fun of the fans like we're all just spoiled brats. There are arguments to both sides, but it needs to be handled more responsibly on both ends

I havn't really seen this disrespect of the fans you are talking about. Can you link me what you mean?

The closest I have seen was Moderators deleting posts of how to hack the game to show that the model for Javik was on the disk, but I still think that they are well within their right to do that.

One of the ones I've seen recently was the game unrelated to ME poking fun at the fans by adding something to the ending, theres an article on it on the front page on the bottom right now.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/116484-Mass-Effect-3-Outrage-Causes-Unrelated-Game-to-Change-its-Ending

But I've seen a few instances of bigger name developer people from other games making fun of fans and such. A few of the articles on here were about it.

As to the moderator thing, I don't think any form of hacking like that is allowed in the forums, but im not sure.

 

[Susurrus]

SNIP

It became fairly obvious in about season 2 of Lost that the writers didnt have a clue what they were doing, and were writing from week to week. There were fewer expectations of an ending that wrapped it all up because of this. The assumption with Bioware is that they had an end in sight to the trilogy. Clearly they didnt.

 

[Snowy]

Loved this post, and agree with it. Frankly, a lot of people seem to think that Bioware is immune to this because they weren't set "Guidelines for Quality" or "You should expect X". We were, in the month's leading up to the release of ME3, there are numerous quotes of Casey Hudson/Mac Walters and others talking about the ending in interviews, saying things that now, in hindsight, are complete lies.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/995487-mass-effect-3/62267857 - Condensed List.

Edit: This one gets me the most:

"It?s not even in any way like the traditional game endings,
where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got
ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and
variety in them.? - Hudson

 

[Mr Pantomime]

-snip-

What really gets me about this whole ME Ending thing is the sheer audacity of people to demand a change an ending to a videogame. Not commenting that its bad, not simply returning or trading in the game. Actually walking right up to Casey Hudson, spitting at his shoes, and saying "no, you dont get to decide how this series ends. Its not your decision". Then forcing him into his chair and killing one Bioware employee every hour until they get their ending. Where do they get the nerve? These people need to grow up.

Not you of course. You're an Angel.

 

[mirage202]

A little detail everyone seems to be missing.

Nobody had to hand Touchstone money to watch Lost.
We can go to a library and read a book for free.
You can visit a gallery or museum and view any "art" we choose either for free, or a "voluntary" donation.

We do however, have to hand Publishers/Developers money to play games.

"Artistic integrity" is a steaming pile of BS as long as they continue to make games solely for financial gain. You know, the kind of thing the elitist pricks in charge/control of the artistic community would brand you a sell-out for.

-"Selling out" is the compromising of integrity, morality, or principles in exchange for money or "success" (however defined).[1] It is commonly associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream audience. Any artist who expands their creative path to encompass a wider audience, as opposed to continuing in the genre and venues of their initial success, may be disdainfully labeled by disapproving fans as a sellout. Sometimes a sellout is seen as a person that is disloyal to one's group that he or she belongs (usually ethnic group) in order to gain money or become "successful". Selling out is often seen as gaining success at the cost of credibility.-

The dumbing down of the RPG elements, open world gameplay, and the much maligned inclusion of the multiplayer mode, are all tailored attempts at appealing to a wider audience to maximise profit.

With practices like that, is it any surprise that the artistic community scoffs at the suggestion of games being an art form? Yet the master of dumbing down, mainstreaming and milking, Electronic Arts, are one of the hardest pushers for recognition. The snobs calling the shots are never going to accept anyone that has "sold out" before getting their foot through the door.

 

[Teh Jammah]

CBA to read the whole four pages of the thread to see if anyone's made this point yet or not. So this may be repetitious.

But for all those whose position is 'Oh it's art! It's ART dahlings! Would you ask Davinci to add new details the Mona Lisa?'... Davinci didn't scribble a note on the Mona Lisa saying the renaissaince art equivilent of...

Spoiler: Congrats, a winner is you, now go buy our upcoming DLC

... yeah, can't slap an 'art' label on that. Art and blatant profit-mongering have nothing to do with each other.

So you're saying that just because a book or a movie or whatever leaves room for a possible sequel, it suddenly loses the "right" to call itself art?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I have no problems with sequels or even sequel bait - I could make that a point since the trilogy itself was suposed to end here.

But the whole 'you can't ask them to change it because its art' arguement falls apart when you end the game itself for an advert for future aditional content - which is them TELLING you, straight up, that their 'artistic masterwork' ISN'T complete and that we have to pay more for the complete artistic vision.

And before you ask otherwise, the above isn't a rage at DLC in general. I like post game DLC - stuff like that usually adds to a game's experience and longevity. And its a fair assumtion that there was going to be mass effect 3 DLC anyhow.

but openly admitting it and ending the game encouraging you to buy it? That's not art. And to use your analogy appropriately, that would be like finishing Harry Potter and being told to go buy an upcoming Harry Potter artbook that shows several scenes dramatically recreated to add to your reading experience.

 

[lordtec]

I did not like the ending to Lost. I wasn't the only one. With the amount of people see it I bet you I wasn't the only one either.

Chances are more people will have seen and been disappointed with that ending that they did with ME.

So where is the petitions to get the ending changed?

That is my entire problem. It isn't about artistic integrity. It is about Gamers being unable to accept their position as audience.

If we find it al right to bully a creator into changing their creation to fit our sensitivities then where is the end to that?
If we say yes to this then we say yes to change any works to fit our preferences. Should we remove violence from Mortal Combat to satisfy a more squeamish part of the potential audience?

No
It has to be the original creators choice to change it. Everything you produce will have consequences, how you deal with that should be your choice. You may want to reconcile with your audience, then it is your choice. As it should be.

For some reason Games seem to put themselves and their medium of choice in a special pen where they have influence over the Artist because they have influence within their creations.

The difference between a game and a tv show like Lost is that you have to pay to be able to play the game. For a tv show you just turn on the tv. If you don't like the end of the hsow you haven't lost any money unless you are so stupid to buy the dvd's of something you know sucks.

Gamers are also a different kind of audience compared to movie, tv or theater audiences. A gamer is activly involved in the story (especially in a game like ME), this way we become part (not creative) of the storytelling. That means we are more involved with the story compared to a show or movie.

And other audiences are often cowed into thinking nothing will change even if they complain about it, but gamers know the internet better then most other audiences. We are much more vocal than the cowed audiences. (Which isn't always a good thing.) We know that we are consumers and as consumers it is our duty to make ourselves heard if we aren't satisfied. And the internet is just the place to do just that.

If Bioware/EA changes the ending it means they do so out of their own free will, we aren't forcing them at gunpoint. We made our dissatisfation known and we make sure they know it and we keep telling them. If they really don't want to change it, then it is their choice, but they will need to live with it. We will tire of complaining eventually and then this will all die down. But bioware might find itself with a much smaller fanbase and a lot less credid.

Also, I'm tired of people saying games are art. Games can be art, but most are just products created to sell. And if every game is art, it is a form commissioned art and for commissioned art the customer can demand changes from the artist if he/she isn't happy with the product. the difference with games and commissioned art is that you don't get to see what you pay for until you get it, so if you see it isn't what you wanted you can only complain and hope people are listening and when enough people complainsomehting has to be done.

I'm sorry if other people already said things like this, but I just had to say it myself.

 

[Justanewguy]

Then that still begs the question.

Where is the petition to change the ending to lost?

It is the same problem, different audience.

Unless you want to argue you have more right to change video games than you have other mediums your whole point falls flat.

You know...some of us did like the ending to LOST. In fact, more than half of the people I talk to who saw the show (which is not nearly as many as who've played ME3, though I generally have a young group of friends) enjoyed the ending. Maybe the difference is that LOST's ending wasn't uniformly hated?

Just wish to point out that ME3's ending isn't uniformly hated as so many people like to believe. It's just that the haters tend to be the more vocal group.

I'll put it this way. I liked the ME3 ending. I didn't love it, but I also didn't dislike it. I thought that it was something that was meant to be interpreted, and so I did. That being said, using my earlier example, I've talked to a great deal of my friends and so far I have as of yet to find one who agrees with me. The fact that LOST, in a smaller test sample, came out with about 60% liking and 40% disliking, while ME3 has come out with 99% dislike and 1% like, leads me to believe that ME3's ending is more disliked. In fact, assuming a reasonable margin of error, it's fully plausible to call it uniformly disliked, at least from the talking to people that I've done.

 

[zehydra]

Someone still needs to define "art".

Then they can follow it up by defining "artistic integrity".

'Cause those terms are becoming pretty damn meaningless.

Art = "That which is designed to evoke emotion in the human/person which experiences the art."

 

[zehydra]

there is no artistic integrity with me3 as no one with artistic integrity would of let that ending pass. it smacks of a couple of people writing it in isolation and someone in charge of money goin "no more delays that ending will do"

Right, because stories are the only ways in which a game can be artistic [/sarcasm]

 

[ElPatron]

1: Conan Doyle did not go back to the book after he finished it and wrote it a new ending. He just ret-conned the entire thing in a different book. That is not what people who demand a change to the ending want. What they want is to have Conan Doyle go back and rewrite the ending to the book.

There would be no way to physically remove the old ending from the books that had been already sold.

In a game, it is possible to release a content patch that overwrites a game's installation/forces the console to ignore the old endings.

 

[flames09]

I don't think you understand, you cannot mass market and sell what many consumers see as a'sub par product', if any other industry sold a product and it did not meet your standards than the company would be obliged to give you your money back or fix the problem. Video games should stop being called an art when they are sold en'mass to make a profit for the publishers and producers.

One obvious difference between art and games like Mass Effect is that you can win the game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Though I do want gaming, as a medium to reach the level of 'art', it just has not reached that yet.

 

[Something Amyss]

You are going to have to prove it is publicly owned.

Burden's on you, Draech, even if you did just shift the goalposts. AND your example sucked like Hell.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Bethesda also retroactively changed Fallout 3's infamously bad ending with DLC, exactly how Bioware is planning

Unlikely. Not to mention that Bethesda didn't change what was already there, they just added more after the endgame. Bioware has already said multiple times that they won't add anything after the ending. It's much more likely (and I believe they stated) that if they add anything concerning the ending it will be before red, green of blue and all it will do is help explain it.