I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[itsthesheppy]

I'm saying that its what they have to do. I'm also saying that I'm sick and tired of these damn threads. Basically, what they have to do and what I prefer are not the same.

So you're saying you disagree with your own opinion?

No, I'm saying that I don't think discussing it here will do anything, and as such think its a waste of time and that we should quit it and go talk about something else.

You know, nobody is forcing you to post or even read these threads. The title was very clear about what the content was; it was your own choice to poke your head in and read. Perhaps you're not as sick and tired of these threads as you claim.

Spoiler: It's certainly not like the problem is going away.

>youtube
I assume you'll be using /b/ to prove your point next?

No you're right, I'm sure whatever wrote those comments and then "liked" them enough to get them both into the top comment position weren't actual human beings. Or maybe they were being hilariously sarcastic! It's so easy to tell, because of stuff and things and I'd really rather I didn't live in a world where people might be sexist all the time everywhere oh god.

 

[Schadrach]

Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer. Secondly gaming does not belong to men. Yes the devs often cater to lads over women because of demographic but that does not mean they have some sort of divine right that makes their opinion more valid.

No, it doesn't. In fact, in current western society, I'm pretty sure nothing "belongs to men" -- that's a right that only belongs to women. Will elaborate below.

You see when someone says 'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it! They are doing two things. They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

It's more like "How dare people come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it!" I'm not exactly sure why someone like Anita Sarkeesian should be expected to get any different of a reception than Jack Thompson. Is telling everyone who pulls a "we demand your hobby be changed to meet my preferences" being treated identically regardless of what those preferences *are* or who is saying them the absolute height of egalitarianism? There were certainly no kind words given regarding Jack Thompson either, though they had a different tilt to them since pejoratives are inherently demographically sensitive (but with a bit of a look you can find some pretty horrible things directed at him too, and he's even a presumably straight white male so he should get treated with the utmost respect and not massive amounts of bile, vitriol, and outright hatemongering, right? Oh, no, wait, it's the internet.).

That?s not actually how I see it represented, which is the fundamental failure in the communication of the two sides. They see it as someone coming into a hobby they?re enjoying and telling them something is wrong with it. The difference is quite subtle, but there is a difference nonetheless. Surely you can understand where the reaction comes from? I certainly don't want someone telling me I shouldn't enjoy something because they don't like how they interpret it.

If they shared their opinion as an opinion, I don?t think the problem would be as escalated as it is. The problem is that people who share their opinions publicly aren?t representing them as opinion; they?re representing them as fact.

Something like that, yeah.

Also there is some sort of reaction of 'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.' This works on the assumption that all developers are male and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them (if that was true forums like this wouldn't exist.)

It?s a valid response to be honest. Nothing is preventing them from creating their own companies and competing in the open market by creating games they feel better represent their positions.

Actually, given that the marginal cost of creating games for PC is really quite low if anyone with the underlying skills is interested (and the one for writing is just a shade higher than nothing) and things like Kickstarter exist, it's a really good argument. More diversity is in what is available is always better. Trying to force everyone else to do what you want at the cost of other things isn't. If there's a niche for it, it'll open some eyes, especially given how easy it is to get a game on Desura, though somewhat harder to get one on Steam or Origin.

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

This hits on one of those things that I think is inherently problematic, that I can blame on feminism specifically (because of the position it holds in gender discourse and the underlying framing of the discussion), and something that I think actually influences the genuinely misogynist edge of the whole argument (as opposed to people who simply don't want their hobby trampled to meet someone else's taste, or perhaps just plain disagree with you). "Women's Space." It's defined by feminists and based on men, that is to say, that the term as discussed in feminism essentially is space in which men are not welcome, and thus solely for women. Perfectly reasonable description for something that certainly needs to exist in some form.

What becomes problematic is that the same people then turn around and define anything from which men are not explicitly excluded as "Men's space." Which is not exactly the same thing. So, for example, a public mall in the eyes of these people is "men's space" because men aren't barred from being there, but isn't "women's space" because men aren't barred from being there, depsite women not being barred from it either.

I'm going to refer to this concept (space that is not restricted anyone on the basis of gender) as "ungendered space" for simplicity, and use "Men's space" to refer to a gender-flipped version of "Women's space."

Women's space is sacrosanct, and gets treated as such. The idea that women's space needs to exist and is important to have and protect is essentially unquestioned. Men's space however is essentially vilified, and is something that needs to be turned into ungendered space, kicking and screaming if need be. As a result, there is very little that qualifies as men's space these days, and anyone attempting to create such is a sexist, misogynist, probably homophobic monster; or a den of pedophiles. Let me put it this way: Pre-PAX women-only (but otherwise publicly accessible) party = awesome idea; Men-only (but otherwise publicly accessible) LAN party = misogynist asshole. So yeah, I'm going to guess the few who *actually* view it as encroaching on a space "belonging to men" do so out of a lack of other such spaces.

I've always been somewhat apathetic towards the whole "Girl gamer" thing, but, from what I can tell, there are two types:

The "Gamer Girl", or the camwhore who pretends to be into games for attention.
And the girl gamer, who is just that. A girl who plays video games.

And, yeah, there is quite a bit of sexism in gaming. It's a really disappointing fact, and it really needs to go away, but there's no way we can just make it disappear overnight. Just try to fight it, and reduce the problem as much as you can. And make sure to always discuss it logically (Which you have, for the most part). Nobody likes it when someone's acting like they have a Gundam up their ass, even if they are, for the most part, in the right.

It's like the "men are pedophiles, so let's have a policy in which we throw them out of their seat on an airline if we decided to sit them next to an unaccompanied child to begin with" thing (thanks Virgin for such a great recent example). Sure, some of them are (and some "Gamer Girls" are just doing ti for attention), but they're a minority. They're just large enough of a minority to be in people's minds, and just problematic enough to stick there, though. Thankfully gaming isn't nearly so serious as sexual abuse, but that just sets the bar for "problematic enough" lower.

I'm not depressed about video games I'm depressed about the attitude towards my gender. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a guy.

Norah Vincent tried, you can read about her experiences easily enough. Or listen to her interview on NPR July of last year. It's really an interesting series of experiences on her part.

What I don't like is that when men create their own space where they can be away from women there is an immediate uproar. Some dudes just want an area or an activity where there is no women not for sexist reasons but for their own well being because everyone needs a break from the opposite gender. Women have their own safe spaces and their own activities so why cant we?

I just don't like how we must accommodate women for everything; I want a mens only video game club where I can relax, make crude comments and rape jokes, play video games and drink with other dudes. Some men aren't comfortable around women; they can suffer from anxiety, turn into competitive assholes trying to impress the girl or whiteknights.

Just don't make a big deal out of it everyone can play games.

You want a video game club like that, go make one.
Problem is when some dudes try and turn the whole thing into a guys club when it really isn't and nor should it be.
Games are a medium of entertainment. They're not a dude thing. Not a lady thing. They're just a thing.

I'm not asking to be `accomodated`, especially not when I've been here the whole damn time (longer than a bunch of the dudes who think gaming is `theirs`). Just asking people not generally be fuckheads. Do it privately!
If you wanna get your own mumble server for being as rude as you like on, I would support that 100%.

See above about gendered spaces. =)

If you don't like normal events, sure make your own, but don't then segregate them based on gender, just have less booth babes.

So...PAX, then? They cretainly haven't held up to *no* booth babes, but they can certainly claim *less* booth babes.

Note, again, that the nature of those attacks had absolutely nothing to do with her credibility. They had to do with her gender. It was a massive misogynist shitstorm, because she was trying to compile the very evidence that Devil wanted to see. I thought it relevant to the discussion, as it speaks to the mindset of the specific element of gamer culture I was talking about, and it serves as an example to edify those who try to say that sexism in gaming isn't an important problem to address. I never once said anyone here was misogynist because they didn't think Sarkeesian was credible, nor for any other reason.

Also note that she literally incited it. She posted her video on YouTube (funny that she ran that Kickstarter for a month and didn't post the video on YouTube until near the end, isn't it? That's usually the first ting these people trying to raise money do), pre apologized for the shitstorm she was about to receive, then heavily spammed 4chan.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I bet you are all sitting there thinking 'Oh yay another gender thread!'

Yes. Yes I am.

(If you have nothing to say other than 'I am sick of these threads' then please just don't post it isn't helpful or constructive.)

neither is posting the same god damn thread for the past several months.

Look. This whole debate... stupid. You wanna know what the real threat of stripper nun assassins is? Nothing.
No one is saying that gaming is for guys only.
And I maintain girls aren't treated differently online or in gaming: they are treated just as shitty as everyone else. You just have different types of shittiness. that same random douche begging you for nude pics? He's spamming my inbox with comments about how i'm a dickless ****** and that he had sexual contact with my mother in recent moments. but i'm not bitching about it. Grow up and stop whining. you can either be mature enough to ignore it, or get upset about it.
Stupid is stupid, and that's a universal fact. Are girls forced to put up with more stupid? maybe. But really, I doubt it. they have to deal with different KINDS of stupid. Instead of the squeaky 12 yr old saying he's a 80th level blackbelt and he's gonna beat the shit out of you, hes asking for your email address. He's an irritating pissant either way. The moron at work who won't stop hitting on you? he's telling us long, boring, made-up stories of how great he is.
But saying Cammy needs a pair of pants won't fix the problem with that asshole: he's an asshole. That's who he is

Why? You came in a thread that you don't want to read just to complain that it exists?

ooookay.

Yes. Because some of us are sick of this bullshit. even if you dont agree with me, and think there IS an issue to discuss, everything has already been said. You, yes, you, Moonlight, have NOTHING NEW TO SAY. You might as well have Ctrl+c'd this whole thread

You are not special. You do not have some amazing new insight. You do not have a fascinating new angle to shed light upon. You have the exact same parroted thoughts as every other person who has posted one of these threads.
So why post?

there remains nothing to be gained from these threads. So I say they need to go away. Is it less a waste of time to discuss whether or not superman needs to fuck wonderwoman, or what the best movie about haberdashery is? no, but at least they are NEW discussions.
*goes to make new thread*

 

[DannyBandicoot]

In response to your last comment..
If you are going to ask for that can I ask for an option to make every single male protagonist in my games ever not an overly masculine douche thug? No, I can't. Women are sluts in games and Men are overly 'manly'.

Just accept it and enjoy games in which you can make your own character, maybe you can't play a big fat woman yet but you should take what you can get.

 

[Schadrach]

Also note that she literally incited it. She posted her video on YouTube (funny that she ran that Kickstarter for a month and didn't post the video on YouTube until near the end, isn't it? That's usually the first ting these people trying to raise money do), pre apologized for the shitstorm she was about to receive, then heavily spammed 4chan.

Note, however, that none of those things are actually true.

She announced the drive at the time she started it, apologized primarily for her youtube comment section (which was the initial wave in the tsunami of incoming shit), and there exists no proof whatsoever that she posted anything on 4chan.

So yeah, don't try to justify sexism with bullshit. It doesn't work.

She announced the drive on her blog, when she started it, May 17.

She didn't post the video for the drive to YouTube until June 5 (two days before her blog post about the shitstorm she received, and less than two weeks before the end of her month-long drive). You'll note that it had been pretty quiet and uninteresting until that point -- you'll also note that she doesn't have any examples of the hatestorm she was on the receiving end of that predate the YouTube posting of the video, despite the project having been kicking around Kickstarter for 18 days prior (and being on the front page of KS, and in the KS blog). Likewise the WP vandalism does not predate the YouTube version of her video (the vandalism being wholly on June 5-6, after the YouTube post and before the page was protected and care taken to not go into actual criticism of her -- also apparently Destructoid is not a valid source according to the talk page, despite being valid for non-Anita topics). If it was really about "male gamers" as an undifferentiated ego mass wanting to destroy her work, you would have expected some signs of them trying to do so before the chanspam happened.

When she posted the video to YouTube, she pre-apoloized for the incoming shitstorm in the video's description (which is what I was referring to in the previous post, not her June 7 blog post which was only mostly about the YouTube post).

As for the chan spamming, *someone* (I will concede that there's no way to actually prove it was her; it may have merely been a really diligent fan or detractor who started the spam flood within a minute of the video being posted, but I find it easier just to look at the pre-apology, the timing of the spamflood and that a shitstorm could only be to her benefit and take it as a reasonable conclusion -- looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc) engaged in a pretty hefty campaign of chan spamming immediately after the video went up on YouTube. This did exactly what one would expect, and acted as provocation, ensuring that what she pre-apologized for would come to pass.

She's internet-savy enough to know that irritate chans = shitstorm, and a shitstorm could be nothing but good for her funding levels.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Again you are acting like gaming is some kind of sacrosanct male space, it isn't, when I play TF2 online for example I have every right to be there as much as a guy.

The truth is men are welcome at geek girl con so saying it makes men only lan parties okay is silly.

Nobody should be excluded from what they want to do for either gender or race.

Also acting like Anita Sarkeesian is Jack Thompson is a bit illogical as she is basically saying 'We want our sex to be treated with more respect within this medium' not 'Video games are bad and make people kill each other m'kay' which has no grounding in reality.

If women didn't care about video games we wouldn't be complaining. Someone else on these forums said over-sexualisation is 'the icing of the cake' for male gamers. Well for me it's like someone took a big shit on an otherwise perfectly good game.

The Witcher for example is really fun to play but I can't play it because of how it treats women.

 

[GamerAddict7796]

The only problem with posting this here, on the Escapist, is that everyone here is super tolerant and most people on here don't care.

 

[JWAN]

Games are aimed at men and mostly made by men...so, generally speaking, unless women can get into the industry or raise enough hell to get their attention, that will remain the status quo.

I can't help the fact that I am a guy who enjoys "guy games" and I can't really represent anything other than what I am. Sure, if a great game that came out would more fairly represent both genders I would probably pick it up but I am first and foremost a realist. The realist part of me is saying that it would have to be a really great game.

The real question is, "How long is it going to be before women can get into the game industry in large numbers?" Answer: "Whenever, because I cannot predict the future gaming/production demographic"

 

[Ninjamedic]

In any case, I begin to think you don't have much to add to any meaningful discussion (Sarkeesian's issue being nothing more than an indication of how much of a problem misogyny is in gamer culture - which we know already), and I don't think you'll drop your agenda, so you're on my ignore list. I haven't the patience for you, sorry.

So am I a misogynist then?

 

[Ninjamedic]

]
How should I know? Do you tell women you meet in CoD to suck your dick then get back in the kitchen?

No, and I'm going to assume that 90% of the "gaming community" don't do that either.

Was I even talking to you? Where did I personally accuse you of anything?

Well if you're going to state that there is a inherent misogyny in the gaming industry I'm guessing that you're saying that most male gamers/developers are misogynistic.


Or this whole thread is a non-issue built on loose examples that either fall apart when put into their actual context or were just created by blatant title manipulation.

Who knows?

 

[Sean Steele]

I'm against the toggle suggestion at the end, and would instead vote for better designed armor for female characters as opposed to giving every male player "Stripper Vision." A crazy super power that takes normal and conservatve outfits and makes them appear like the stripper version of one.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip.

I'm sorry, I have literally no idea what your point is.
If you feel that there needs to be more safe male spaces then create some, or campaign for some. I will not at all stop you from having private dude-clubs (I can't say I'd really understand, I'm not one for private lady-clubs either, but you do what you want).
But dudes cannot demand that females stay out of an entire medium of entertainment, simply because the majority are men.

Meh, girls who game aren't going anywhere. Hopefully all the childishness will cease at some point. I'm just going to go back to counting the seconds til GW2.

 

[Ninjamedic]

I have never used the word inherent, for instance. I said misogyny is a problem. It is, I've seen it. Moon's experienced it firsthand. It really bothers her a lot, which is why she started this thread - to talk about how her real life experiences with sexism in gaming bother her.

And as many have pointed out from their experiences, these incidents are not consistent with every person. Couldn't be it just down to a bad group of people? Why are anecdotes suddenly infallible evidence of a supposed issue?

Misogyny is a real thing that really exists in the gaming community, and it really does affect real people. When I, or anyone else, says "hey, guys, misogyny is a problem, we should do something about it" that is not the same as saying "everybody who plays videogames is a sexist asshole."

See this statement is nebulous. There is Misogyny in the community but how much exactly? Or is this a matter of 4Chan and random youtube comments representing the entire internet as it is convenient to your argument?

That is stupid and it is not what anybody said ever. And if you think it is something somebody said in this thread then you need to go back and actually read it this time, because you're wrong.

Well from what I've seen people have put forward logical and well thought out counter arguments to the OP only to be either dismissed or talked down to. Tell me, why is that when racism, homophobia or ageism are brought up in online gaming, it is left to The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, yet when its misogyny its all of a sudden a major issue that has to be immediately rectified?

 

[Elate]

snip

snip

-snip-

Go reread what I said, I think you misunderstood greatly. The point I'm getting at is that (the way it looks like anyway) female gamers want /all/ of gaming changed, and no, no that doesn't happen, for anyone. You carve a niche with what you want, you do not demand an entire industry cater to your needs.

As with the film example, the same is said for books, there are plenty of manly action books that feature strong male antagonists but not many male, yet we don't see women trying to change them. The same is for gaming, I'm all for more diverse games in the industry, I love ones that push the boat, but even if I don't enjoy playing Modern Battlefield 5, or Cogs of Battle 6, I will not go in there and tell them to change it because I don't agree with it. I will buy games that cater to MY wants, and vote with my wallet by supporting devs that take a risk and make games like that. The way the majority of "girl gamers" seem to want it, is that games as an entirety must change to meet their wants, and that isn't how the world works.