I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[AngelBlackChaos]

Snip snip

Isn't this part of the problem though?
I get that you were harassed because you're a women but hiding the fact doesn't really help you at all, it's is the online equivalent of disguising yourself.
Maybe if women did become more vocal and more prevalent in the online community by actually pitching in then maybe this nonsense would eventually go away.

I find it frustrating playing with females because they refuse to use their voice programme software, I play a lot of DotA and up until recently I played with a friend who would never, ever use her voice to communicate.

I get harassed for being British because of my accent, my dental care or because of stuff that happened in the past that I am somehow responsible for.
This mockery and harassment is something that happens online for everyone involved, regardless of sex, religion or race. If I'm going to be 100% honest, I'm not sure why women refuse stand up against people in these games by just blocking/muting communication and getting on with playing the game but rather starting threads like these (not that I have a problem with that mind you).

I was in a guild a long time ago that played a few MMOs, part of the sign up rule was "We don't care if you have a vagina, you don't get special privileges. You get treated like every other member, yes you will be the butt of sexist jokes and yes you will be told to get back in the kitchen. If you can't handle that then don't sign up."
I've never, ever, been in a regular guild that had more female members than that guild did. The mockery wasn't exclusive to women, everyone was on vent as it was a mandatory requirement and everyone was totally chill about it.
After being in that guild it was apparent to me that we can get a long, it just takes a little work and a little understanding from both parties.

And, you may have missed it in my post, I am no longer avoiding voicechat. Its annoying, but if it gets people to grow the hell up, so be it.

 

[Treblaine]

What I'd really like is for you to reconsider all the character you hold these conclusions of "unfortunate implications" for.

I'll meet you half-way.

For every extensive evidentiary discussion of why a particular female depiction should not have unfortunate implications, I'll strike that depiction from my proverbial 'list'.

If you want me to abandon the very idea of unfortunate implications - sorry, they're there whether you like them or not. That's the 'unfortunate' part.

Well that's more than half way, as close to reconsidering as I could hope for.

I obviously couldn't ask you to drop the "idea" of unfortunate implications, the idea certainly exists.

 

[Signa]

What bugs me OP, is by saying things like "How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it!" is that it's skirting the issue. I really doubt there are many guys out there that think it's "boys only" like some grade school tree house. It's that we love gaming in the shape that it is. We got into gaming because gaming is fun for us. We happen to be guys, so I guess that incidentally excludes girls that don't like things that guys like. When a girl comes up to us and tells us to change the things we like so that she can enjoy it too, we say "no! get your own thing to like!" It's not fair to expect someone to make something they like into something they don't like just so another party can enjoy it. It doesn't work that way.

Let me put it another way. I'm constantly raging on the mass appeal and homogenization of games today. Games have already changed to bring in greater audiences, and I HATE it. It has nothing to do with the genitals between those newcomer's legs. It's that my hobby is no longer fun, because they couldn't just get their own games, they had to invade mine. I have no problem with grandma or grandpa wanting to play games, and I love them more for it, because it's now common ground I can share with those people. Making "Half-Life 5: Now with invincibility pickups in every room!" makes me hate gaming, the people that wanted HL5 to be that way, and the devs that made their game completely different than what we originally fell in love with (See Diablo 3).

This speaks nothing about scantily clad females in games, but I don't even know how to have an opinion on that.

 

[BRex21]

Well, since violence against men is far more pervasive in our society, and treated with far less severity, perhaps we should be talking about how the acceptability and glorification of violence against men in our media influences violence against men.
And while women are often marginalized as sex objects, which gender do we throw away when they stop being productive?

A lot of people decry any depictions of violence at all, for many of the reasons you state. But, not really anyone here, so I don't know what else to say, except this is a discussion for another thread, maybe?

A lot of people say it, but you didn't, and the problem with your post as it was worded, was that it is dismissive of this. The problem with your post, these threads and often society at large can be summed up by an old joke:
"World Ends, Women Affected Most"
Since we are talking about "sexism" and not simply "discrimination against women", and yes there is a difference, we need to discuss if this is bias directed at women or is this simply another "woman in the blue bra" wherein the same poor treatment of males and females is considered an attack on women.
The arguments that these hollow female characters in fighting games are sexist really falls apart when you realize that every character is a hollow caricature of some nerds power fantasy. They are poorly written and can't compare to the well rounded characters of more story driven games, not inherently sexist.

 

[Something Amyss]

I know it's uncouth to quote the first post, but I do have a couple points here:

I bet you are all sitting there thinking 'Oh yay another gender thread!' This isn't a thread about how much clothes female characters are wearing or whatever (Apart from a small comment at the end*) it's about the simple attitude some guys have towards women playing video games.

Which usually attracts "this again" ire. This has recently been highlighted by the dude who sniffed his female teammate and defended sexism as part of fighting game companies and comes up in most things like "PVC nuns!" and "Tropes v wimminz!" In the method of "if youdon't like it, don't play it!"

Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer. Secondly gaming does not belong to men. Yes the devs often cater to lads over women because of demographic but that does not mean they have some sort of divine right that makes their opinion more valid.

Understand that the very concept of gaming lingered for decades underground, attributed to mouth-breathing, basement-dwelling man-children. While evolution has brought the modern gamer into the sunlight, the primitive portion of the brain still fearfully guards against the dreaded "wimmins."

Evolution is imperfect, and often species cling to legacy issues.

They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

Actually, it's "because they are different." You will note this happens to virtually anyone who questions the status quo, even if they're male. Ask a black or gay gamer how they're treated when they talk about this sort of thing.

Maybe I'm preaching to the converted here, Escapists tend to be intelligent people, but diversity in games isn't a bad thing.

It's also full of people who will tell you to STFU and get back in the kitchen and make them a sammich. Because, you know, that never gets old.

*PS. As an aside I had an idea about adding a toggle to games to change the outfits of female characters (and I guess, maybe even male characters.) That way we can stop women feeling put off by PVC clad nuns without depriving the lads of their eye candy. Seems simple doesn't it. Considering a lot of games already have costume changes I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either. Other methods of reducing sexualisation while not pissing some people off might be more difficult, but one step at a time I guess. One step at a time

Two things:

1. This is more or less a band-aid, or maybe an intermediary step at best. If gaming is going to mature, it needs to get beyond this whole thing. at best, this allows women to play largely behind a partition only, as long as they avoid the menfolkz. It also doesn't change the context, unless you ask for two separate stories.

2. You are asking this of an industry that (in general) won't even put female protagonists in shooters because it's "too difficult," even though our own Jim Sterling dismissed that.

 

[Lyri]

And, you may have missed it in my post, I am no longer avoiding voicechat. Its annoying, but if it gets people to grow the hell up, so be it.

Yes I did, I misread the post.

 

[Phasmal]

And, you may have missed it in my post, I am no longer avoiding voicechat. Its annoying, but if it gets people to grow the hell up, so be it.

You just missed my point.


You completely misunderstood what I was saying, how does not using your voice chat make people grow up?

After that, I just stopped using voice chat, generally had my gamertag to something ambiguous, and refused to acknowledge what sex I was

You didn't fix anything, you just ignored it.

If women actually are playing games in numbers that they're supposed to be playing in, then they shouldn't be a silent player at all.
They should be out there playing, having their tags showing their gender, using voice chat to communicate and not backing off from having their fun willingly because people say "AH A GUURRRL SHOW ME UR BOOBZ LOLOLOLOL"
It's really no different from someone calling you a ******, ****** or whatever else. You just block it and get on with it.

She said she is NO LONGER avoiding it.
Which means she is using it now, in the hopes that people hearing a female voice more often will make people more used to it.
You missed her point twice.

 

[Lyri]

She said she is NO LONGER avoiding it.
Which means she is using it now, in the hopes that people hearing a female voice more often will make people more used to it.
You missed her point twice.

Misread, twice.
Welp, go ahead and crucify me now.

 

[Jun_Jun]

.

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

I don't support segregating women from Game Cons, but I think your making assumptions about what these women(who are we talking about exactly?) are there for.

Well I don't think it's the kind of segregation you're thinking of there, they're not going to go make their own 'girly con' with shirtless firemen and beefy spacemarines, (also Gaymercon oh geez I can't remember the name, don't lynch me.. Keep that con in mind as well because it's pretty much the same sort of community feel they're going for here.) I guess it's more about feeling comfortable in that space, feeling that it's a space where they are safe from the criticism, stares and sexism that comes with attending normal cons. Hmm it's kind of the same dealy as those women only train cars in Japan etc. It's less about a 'no boys' club and more about a place where women are free to relax and not constantly be on edge and watching out for gropers or men trying to take pictures of you constantly (trust me I've been there..). I guess for the while a 'girlcon' is a good temporary solution until the industry and community grow up a bit and learn that women make up to 40% of the gaming population. (sorry if this seems aggro and ranty this issue really annoys the everloving crap out of me)
Also I'll add last time I heard GeekGirl Con wasn't a girls only arrangement, and sadly I've read more than one story about guys attending just to snag the illusive gamer-girlfriend, which probably is ruining both sides' time.

 

[BRex21]

snip

I spoke of violence against women as it relates to society because this is a discussion that is primarily about sexism. Violence is a secondary element of that, in this regard.

Violence towards men is more a discussion of violence in general, since it's primarily depicted as man vs. man. And since violence is kinda secondary in this thread, the primary discussion being about sexism, I felt it appropriate to leave the discussion regarding men aside.

You didn't decide to leave it aside, you decided to pretend it did not exist, the problem with this is that the vast majority of violence directed at women in videogames puts them on par with men, IE two people, one of which happens to be a woman, are fighting, as opposed to specifically singling out of women as targets of violence. When it is specifically gendered violence women tend to have the "morally superior" position either way, IE a man attacking a woman is a bad man, a woman attacking a man is an empowered woman or at the very least an inferior man who deserves it. This is pervasive in all our media. The most pervasive element of sexism, that is discrimination based on gender not "discrimination against women", is that it is mens place to absorb violence, not womens.
The ironic thing is that the definition of "sexism" you have to use to make your point is inherently sexist.

 

[Mouse One]

You know, I do think there's a difference between what I think of as "gamer culture" and just plain old gamers. The folks I play online games with (ME3, Warhammer and L4D right now for the most part) are just regular Joes and Janes. Rough guess, about a quarter of them are women. And no one makes B.S. sexist remarks-- oh, we'll razz each other, sure. But nothing like what you see on FatUglyorSlutty.

I'm sure as heck not saying that sexism doesn't exist among gamers, or that it's not a problem. But sometimes, it's just the company you keep.*


*as I write this, it occurs to me that part of my happiness comes from mostly playing coop games. Way easier to boot people as necessary, and after a while you end up mostly playing with friends and friends of friends.

 

[Naroiden]

snip

I'm not depressed about video games I'm depressed about the attitude towards my gender. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a guy.

Good point, Moonlight Butterfly.

Example: I hate the fat man who play a game with female character because she is sexy. That`s because I hate a chooseable female character in games. They are play all the game with naked female character. It is like, game companys made chooseable female character for fat men, not females.

I see ''I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...'' like topic everywhere. But you females must know, some games for males, some games can be for females. Because, there is no a lot female gamer as male gamer. If you make a COD like game with just woman soldier, your game not be successful. No one buy that game, except some females. Because most games are build some man stuffs. Like COD, GTA, BRINK... But some other games not. Like fighting games, Tomb Rider, Silent Hill, Resident Evil... Because fighting, adventure, fear and survive not for males. Both of can do these. But woman + soldier? There is not much a woman with a gun in real life. All new games is are in man theme. Of course there is no female characters. Of course they make games for males. New games for little kids and the fat men who play a game with naked female character these days. You think most Skyrim buyers are female gamer?

I understand what you are saying but you have to see that sometimes the opinions people have can be accurate. I mean anyone with eyes can see Ivy from Soul Calibur is an oversexualised representation of a woman that makes some women feel demeaned and uncomfortable, I have a theory women tend to put themselves 'in the shoes' of their avatars more than men (which leads to these problems). Both Susan Arendt and I both stopped playing the Soul Calibur series because it just felt like playing in a strip club eventually.

Yeah, that`s because I don`t play Soul Calibur. Because, I want a fight, not boobs. The boobs
make this hard.

 

[Gladys Knight]

Hmmm... so it appears that, for the sake of equality, we need to call for change if one specific group is subjected to what a number of others have been putting up with. And we pay special attention to whether someone calls attention to someone's gender in a negative way, rather than look at the overall issue of people saying negative things in the first place.

Additionally, if a black girl is called something racial and a white girl is called something negative based on gender, the black girl is not a victim and there is no epidemic or sense of being unwelcome but the white girl is a victim and there has been a direct assault on her entire gender.

Additionally, problems with the internet and anonymity apparently = problems exclusive to gaming. Like, I guess, if a school overall has bad test scores we blame each individual classroom now.

Additionally, if someone garners a lot of hate due to making accusations of sexism amongst a culture, any vitriol received in return is an attempt to support an environment that she is speaking out against. It's impossible for a person taking a stand to just suck and be unlikable.

Additionally, interactions between males and females that reflect how males and females commonly interact = problems exclusive to wherever they happen to be interacting at that time.

Or maybe the world just has jerks in it and consists of a bunch of things that a bunch of people don't like...

I feel more bad for people with lower income trying to play "core" video games right now than I do any group of people...

 

[Ryotknife]

snip

I'm not depressed about video games I'm depressed about the attitude towards my gender. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a guy.

then you would have to deal with being the convient whipping boy in the media or watch the majoiryt of TV shows which depict men as cave men (with good intentions of course).

Women are also excluded from all of the bad stereotypical aspects about gamers (greasy virgins, man children, etc)

Yes, it can seem that the gaming cummunity is disrespectful towards woman's opinions, but the media/TV/hollywood can seem like they are depicting men as inferior to women.

Not saying we have it worse, just that life gives you crap no matter where you go.

Hey, at least women tend to live longer, so you can dance on our graves to your heart's content.