Improving the JRPG for the Next Generation.

[PedroSteckecilo]

I notice a lot of hate for JRPG's on this board so I propose a question...

What conventions should JRPG's either discard, change or add in order to sever their ties with the past and bring themselves into the Next Generation of Gaming. Try to avoid the straight "JRPG's are stupid! Only Oblivion is allowed!" arguements one sees so often on these board and try to keep things in the tone of a discussion rather than a fight.

Here are some of my personal suggestions...

1) Non-Random On-Screen Encounters: Is the seperate Battle Screen so necessary anymore? Chrono Trigger discarded it way back in the day, FFXII did it recently and most WRPG's don't use it as a rule.

2) Less Luke, more Han Solo: I am tired of playing as barely out of puberty 17 year olds who look like girls. Give me some mature heroes with real motivations, not some fresh of the farm Luke Skywalker clone! I want some bad ass pirate, or a grizzled war hero as my lead. Balthier or Basch should have been the main character of FFXII, for example, not Vaan.

3) Save the World? Been there, done that: While this seems like the most "epic" plot available, why not shake it up, this has been the convention for YEARS. Give me Political Intrigue with Earthly Goals! Let me have a dark tale of betrayal and redemtion without a "save the world" plot tacked onto the end. Why not do a survival tale, or a mystery, there are many other stories out there, and they can be just as epic. These have been done (see Suikoden Series) and can be done again, give it a try.

That's all the time I've got right now, more later.

 

[sammyfreak]

Basicly what you said, especially more of Balthier types instead of Vaan's.

I also would like some evolution of the battle mechanics, FFXII improved them alot and XIII looks like it will take them even longer.

 

[Necrohydra]

Regarding your comments on the hate for JRPG's on these boards...well, that seems to be the prime user base here *or, at least, the most vocal ones*. Try saying anything negative about half-life here..I can guarantee you'll cause pages of responses that will basically amount to "What are you thinking, half-life is AWESOME." There are those of us who like and play JRPGs, let me say that.

As for you suggestions, I..agree entirely. Particularly on the random-encounters one - systems have more than enough power to show the enemy blips on the screen.

@sammyfreak - there are some games out there that do the whole *turn based I-hit-you, you-hit -me mechanic differently, or don't do it at all. Grandia's battle mechanics are far different than, say, Valkyrie Profile's. And both of those are different from the battle mechanic you may be thinking of from FF1 days.

 

[Nugoo]

I suspect that almost every suggestion on this thread will amount to, "Make them more like wRPG's." That being said, I'd love a hybrid of Japanese and western style RPG's. The biggest change I'd like to see in jRPG's is different armour. The main character wearing chain mail shouldn't look exactly the same as when s/he wears plate mail.

 

[sammyfreak]

Yeah I guess I base my view of JRPG's on the FF games since they are the only ones i have played. Except Golden Sun but that was a 100% rippof.

 

[Noobzorz]

When I saw that people who loathe JRPGs are overwhelmingly represented, I decided that it was time to consider signing up for an account.

When I saw that people are willing to defend Half-Life to the death, that was it. It was immediately time to sign up.

Here's the problem with JRPGs:

It's no secret that Japanese gamers are, in general, of lower ability than their North American gamers. Stop for a second before you say "LULZ, NOEZ." It is true. It is most certainly true, and the massive difficulty rebalancing that occurs to increase the challenge offered on Japanese games during localization is a testament to this fact.

That's kind of irrelevant, except that most Japanese games tend to be kind of mindless and robotic. JRPGs are this in spades.

If you play Final Fantasy for the gameplay, you're insane. As a series veteran, I stand by this 100%.

So the logical things to play Final Fantasy for are the story development and just the plain ol' fun of building super characters.

It's also no secret that Japanese stories tend to be off their ****ing rocker. See MGS and FF7 for why this is true. Final Fantasy has become a little less insane as of late, but the FFXII story still had massive glaring problems (what the **** happened to the Occuria? why did Venat and whatshisface turn into a giant monster? etc. etc.).

Essentially, they're dense, they're tough to get into, they offer almost no immediate satisfaction, and they often just aren't very good. Buoying them in North America is a massive culture of anime nerds, and that is why they have made it this far.

So yes, essentially I'm doing exactly what you guys anticipated, but that's just how it is. The truth hurts.

 

[Hanji]

Vaan was not the main character of Final Fantasy XII. The narratives of Bathier, Basch, Ashe, and even many NPCs were all more elaborately conveyed. Describing the magnitude of Vaan's participation as excessive or superfluous is still reasonable. Falsely magnifying said magnitude, however, skews the issue entirely.

Random-Encounters: I find them detrimental to game flow, but feel omission of them lessens the potential gravitas of any battle. In FFXII I missed the ornate execution of more powerful spells. Thundaga was a modest spark compared to FFVIII, wherein the air blackened and the ground wrinkled, harbinger of an incandescent paroxysm. Such severity is more reasonable when time is allowed to pause and all combatants have a fixed position. Even FFXII withdrew from its open vista to perform Quickenings. I understand and appreciate the benefits of removing random encounters, but am not against their inclusion.

Personae: This is incredibly variable, as adhering to any mold of character design causes problems. I like or dislike characters (in critique of their composition) individually, groups and classifications are irrelevant. If it is well done, it should not matter, and usually does not.

Objectives: A gist similar to Personae.

As I have rarely been disappointed by the gameplay of JRPGs, I would primarily enjoy deeper undertones. Most I have played are philosophically insignificant outside of their Canon, regardless of quality. There are some moments of lasting intrigue, such as SMT: Nocturne, or the ideals of Vayne and Venat in FFXII, but few. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, WRPG, albeit unfinished and mechanically erroneous, is sublime in what I gained from its narrative. BioShock provides an incredible lesson in perspective, and is not even an RPG.

I suppose my opinion is not entirely applicable to this discussion, however, because I am fond of JRPGs.

 

[Zethios]

I do prefer jrpg's although my only experience is FF and Star Ocean.

Jeeze my friend and I have this discussion once a week, which goes down to NO JAPAN IS TEH GAY AND SO AR YOUU.

I would prefer Han solo though, and Basch too.

I think most people would like it the exact opposite of epic. Like, steal the treasure as the main goal throughout and then maybe save the princess if you get around to it. And then only if you get some sort of... monetary compensation.

I think being the 'Bad Guy' and remaing the bad guy would be quite intersting plot.

It is also unforunate that my only completions of just the story line of an Rpg is like 3 out of ten.

 

[AlbeyAmakiir]

"that's just how it is. The truth hurts." This, 'truth' doesn't really hurt me. I like the weirdness in Jap games (especially MGS). I blame American movies for that. Boring and predictable as all hell.

Also, "...the massive difficulty rebalancing that occurs to increase the challenge offered on Japanese games during localization..." What? Haven't you played any JRPGs that have been merely fan-translated? They wouldn't dare touch any code but the text for fear of screwing the whole thing up, and they are still just as hard. Where on earth did you get that idea?

That said, I agree that random encounters are a bit dated, but I've always believed that if battle mechanics were more fun, then it wouldn't be much of a problem. It should encourage exploration, meaning that even if you don't find something, you at least get experience, but that doesn't happen.

Other than that, I wouldn't change anything about JRPGs. I get tired of WRPGs to easily.

 

[Danowar]

Persona 3

/thread

 

[ThaBenMan]

Well, this is the way I look at it - "JRPG" is a genre unto itself. Making those changes would be like saying "Ok, let's improve the FPS - we should make it not first person anymore, and take out the shooting."

Well, maybe not quite as drastic as that. But there is definitely a huge audience that loves them the way they are. Those attributes are what makes it a JRPG.

(I will agree that random encounters suck, though.)

 

[Fenixius]

There appears to be lots of ripping on random encounters, but I have no problem with the game view changing to accomodate a different style of combat. Real-time combat is overrated. Let's take three of the most famous WRPG's (off the top of my head, anyway): Fable, Mass Effect, Oblivion. Three different developers, and yet none of these games, which all have realtime combat, have excellent realtime combat. Fable comes the closest to great combat, with a nicely integrated ranged, melee and magic systems overlayed. It was pretty well done, though it was fairly shallow. Mass Effect's combat was lacklustre, with a pretty good cover system, but extremely samey run-and-gun-and-power combat from start to finish. There just wasn't any depth. On the highest difficulty open from the first playthrough (Veteran), as a soldier, every single combat was a cinch. On the next one unlocked (Hardcore, from memory?), it got a little tougher, and as I was a less combat-oriented class, I actually had to use spells and buffs. But every fight was the same, and required the same of me. I could probably come up with an algorithm you could loop to win every single fight in that game. Not that ME was a bad game, it just had boring combat. And Oblivion's combat was terrible. The melee system was sort of cool, until you actually had to fight more than one thing at a time. Which was all the time. The Magic was sort of unwieldey, working like a slow-firing ranged weapon with regenerating ammunition. And the ranged combat with bows was, as far as I could tell, nigh useless in terms of effectiveness, though I must say that I never really gave it that much of a chance there.

Now, let's look at, say, Pokemon. The combat in Pokemon is the reason you play Pokemon, mainly 'cause there's nothing else. You build your team, and charge. The combat has a strength-weakness grid in the form of the elements, each pokemon has its own individual strengths and weaknesses, and the enemies will throw all sorts of combinations at you. Not only that, but it's the only game mentioned in my post so far that's multiplayer. While I believe that Fable 2 will have multiplayer, it's not out yet, and doesn't count. Evolving your pokemon squad is important and enjoyable. And yet, it's turn based, not realtime. The random battles aren't particularly annoying, as they all tend to be very short, and can yield exciting rewards (new pokemans, new moves, or evolutions).

WRPG's tend to let the player in on more in-depth statistics, which I'm certainly not averse to, but JRPG's tend to have more interesting plots, from my experience. And much more entertaining combat. Take Oblivion as a prime example of a WRPG. It had an incredible amount of customisation options for the player, but very little structure, a generic plot without any characters we really get a chance to like, and with mediocre combat that fills the hole, but doesn't do it particularly well. Compare with, say, Final Fantasy VI Advance, which I've just played through. 2D and spritey, and without a particularly intuitive or dramatic customisation system, yet the combat system is, in my opinion at least, much more thoroughly enjoyable than Oblivion. Additionally, FFVIA had a plot full of actual characters who grow over time, as opposed to Oblivions largely cardboard-cutout NPC cast. The sandbox world isn't as large, and the game doesn't feature nearly as advanced technology as Oblivion, but I'd pick Final Fantasy VI Advance every time. Of course, that's only two games, but the general trends hold. Fable was pretty and had pretty fun combat, but didn't have a particularly deep customisation system (though a versatile one), next to no characterisation for anyone, and a plot that I could have written. That's not to say that all WRPG's have a rubbishy story, but most tend to skimp on one section of the game, whether it's the story and characters, or the combat system.

I find JRPG's to be a more balanced gameplay experience. That said, I AM basing my JRPG experiences mostly off of Final Fantasy and Pokemon, as I've not played many others. But, going by the experience I have, that's the conclusion I drew; WRPG's just don't end up with a balanced and as thoroughly enjoyable a gameplay system as JRPG's.

 

[Sektor88]

There are some JRPGs like the Xenosaga and .hack//GU series, as well as Persona 3, which don't have "random" encounters, but rather, have enemies on-screen that you can either ambush and get into a fight with or run the hell away from. And the gameplay for some (of the three, namely in .hack//GU) is far from the traditional "I hit you hit me" mantra that JRPGS are well known for, instead it's real-time battling/attacking and command-distributing to allies.

So, if the complaints are "random encounter and I hit-you-you hit me slapfests are 'teh lame'", then maybe more real-time battle RPGs should be introduced. Just a thought.

 

[Anarchemitis]

Make more not RPGs with linear levels. I want open world, like Flight Simulator X open world.

 

[Stammer]

I can think of one Final Fantasy that has everything a normal Final Fantasy has, but with the kind of "upgrades" you guys are discussing. I'm referring to Tactics. First of all, the main character, though only 20-some aught years old, is mature enough and mysterious enough to not be considered another Vaan or Tidus.

Secondly, the random encounters. You basically choose whether or not you want to fight. Worst case scenario, you accidentally hit one or two on your way across the map to your next storyline fight. In said battles, it's incredibly turn-based, but also very balanced. You combine both the FF11(FF12) maneuverability of an outside battle with awesome effects. Have your Time Mage cast Meteor and tell me it's not brilliant.

As for storyline, it's got an amazing one much like every other Final Fantasy. In fact, Tactics has probably half as much backstory as FF11, which is a really enormous amount. Yes you do wind-up saving the world, but it's almost entirely on accident. You start off in the middle of a war, learn of the special Stones, and on your way to save your sister, you go ahead and kill St. Ajora.

 

[Stammer]

Edit: The Class System
I know that the latter FF series is a bad one for this but waaaaay back it was one of their strongest points. Nowadays its just everyone is equal in most respects apart from a few special attacks. I want to go back to the days when your character was a theif or a mage and that was what they were. No making them valuable in every situation. If I want a mage I know its going to have alot of MP fuck all HP damn near zero attacking power but when it gets the later on spells it can clear the field easily. Now its just like every single character is exactly the same just witha different skin.

Final Fantasy XI pretty much re-invented the class system from its peers. I dunno, but I think FF7, as great of a game as it was, started the decline of the Final Fantasy series in that very sense. What happened to all of the old-school customization? In FF10, your characters can only have two different pieces of equipment on at once (one weapon, one armor), and you can become super-powerful in any way. On my file, Yuna hits for 9999 damage with her physical attack. Should a Summoner really be allowed to do that?

 

[Papaya Melancholy]

I grew up on JRPGs: they are close to my heart. However, they all seem like crap nowadays, (excepting FFXII.) I used to love their artistic qualities, their plots, but most of all, their exotic mystique. Maybe they have changed lately, because all I see are these lame cartoony adventures with cutesy anime characters and too many stats.

I hate stats.

You know, I love Final Fantasy, but I have never beaten one of them.
Too much grinding! I don't want to go around fighting meaningless battles!
I usually end up giving up halfway through because there is a boss who is too hard and I can't be bothered to level up enough to beat it.

But I hate WRPGs even more. They have little artistic value, no mystique, and their plots range from lame to acceptable, but not above.

To bring back the JRPG goodness, I suggest : more mystique, less stats, and more plain good ideas.
You know?
I hate stats.
Like what stammer said about Yuna.

 

[Mnemophage]

One of the things that makes the JRPG work is how ridiculous and over-the-top it is. The reason the cliches stick around for as long as they have is because they are somehow still compelling; they're dated, though and thus undergoing a bit of remodeling. The mute, underage hero is as old as the genre, but still provides a perfect, bland backdrop for whatever murderous psychopath you decide to present yourself as. The random encounters are... okay, still distracting, actually, but given some means to avoid, affect or complete them outside of battle, along with a fun battle system with some actual pace and timing to it, it can be improved dramatically. The linear storyline is a side-effect of the genre, and linear does not immediately equal bad.

There are some things, though...

More freedom in your interaction with the world would be damn welcome indeed. If in some bizarro wish-fulfillment world I end up as a game developer, I'm going to hire my cousin as a quality tester. Not because she's thorough or nerdy or will ruthlessly ferret out bugs, but because she's played two video games before and would look at whatever I'm making from a fresh perspective. If I catch her bumping endlessly into a cow, asking me why she can't milk it, then I take her complaint seriously. Little touches like that - perhaps useless in gameplay, perhaps useless in every way - add more atmosphere to the world. They present a more believable environment, they permit the player to screw around and have fun in their own way, and they show that the developer cares enough to apply a little lipstick to their squalling virtual fetus. Leave corpses scattered about after a random battle, and let your player bury/decapitate them. Let them do more than just ransack the chests and drawers in NPC homes - let them put the kettle on, run the faucet, jump on the bed and eat the soap. Let them stop and smell the roses. Or pick them, or incinerate them. It shows us you care.

What else would be fun... aha, I know, ways of advancing that are not tied to combat. The random battle thing is the core of the JRPG, the ancient wooden dowel that the whole gnarly noose is swung from. But the fact that it is the ONLY method of gameplay can be frustrating and exhausting. Don't just let us acquire items outside of battle - why not experience? Why can't we advance if we, say, achieve a potent storyline point? Or if we do fifty chin-ups? Or if we eat a fairy? In that vein: why is the strength of our sword-arm the only way in which our characters are measured? Why doesn't our Intelligence score manage not only how much MP we have, but how quickly and aptly our characters figure out puzzles and plot elements on their own? Turn-based combat is like stone soup. On its own, it's a rock in a pot. The more exotic extras you add, however, the more flavorful and enjoyable the brew becomes.

And finally, a little pet peeve: STOP WITH THE SCHIZOPHRENIC COSTUME DESIGN. Seriously people. I cannot become emotionally attached to a character with a straight-up navy blue hairdo and lime-green strappy top. Anyone who can has brain disease. Show us how awesome you art-types can be while also being minimalist (and no, that doesn't mean thongs and bikinis; that means t-shirts and slacks). PLEASE.

 

[bobraj]

I haven't played a JRPG since Chronotrigger on my cousin's SNES mainly because of all the problems that have been mentioned in this thread. However, I decided to pick up The World Ends With You on the DS and it feels like a breath of fresh air in this rather stale genre. There are far too many cool features for me list but a look at the reviews on IGN and Games Tm magazine (UK) should give you a better idea of what I am talking about.