Improving the JRPG for the Next Generation.

[blank0000]

A chance to rant about the JRPG!

bless you good sir

Tactics: Though some might argue, I find JRPGs to be very lacking in terms of tactics or strategy. Often time its just a case of grinding and leveling up till eventaully you can beat the bad to go, and speaking of that....

Ending the "turn based gameplay" which has become an unnessesary staple in many RPG's, always with one or two "twists" but in actuality it all seems the same to me. This is a dated desighn that has out grown itself. We live in an age were we can create realistic pysics and motion, its insulting to not take advantage of it.

General used, reused, and damn neer abused ideas and artistry.
I shy away from JRPG's because they all seem to samey to me, and they all jsut seem to be building off each others little cliche's and jokes. I think I can express it best by saying...

IF I SEE ONE MORE CAT EARED MOTHA TRUCKA!!!ONE MORE OVER SIZED FAN!!ONE MORE ICONIC TEAR/VEIN/SMILY OR ONE MORE 9 YEAR OLD SCHOOLGIRL GOING "tee hee hee" I WILL PERSONALLY LEAD AN ARMADA OR WARSHIPS TO THE JAPENESE COAST!!!

yeah.......yeah that sounds about right.

OH!! and the ever so unrealistic 12-14 year old who knows how to cut you down with a sword as he's had "the training". BEYOND THAT, the ever common plot of "beleive in the children, you must trust me! trust me!" Because somehow, I dont think sending the message that a small boy/girl with no experiences or such, is more quailified to save the world then someone whos actaully has gone and gathered info and a good 20 YEARS or expereince. Jsut a thought.......just a simple thought.

 

[Joeshie]

They need more variety.

1) Quit it will the whole angsty teen saves world bit: A good story doesn't necessarily need a world that needs saving nor a angsty teen with a pretty face.

2) Give us more freedom: Now I know that the Japanese traditionally like their entire gameplay laid out for them in a nice order and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a linear game. The problem is that the entire genre seems congested with linear RPGs. Again, mix it up a bit more. WRPGs are able to both incredibly well (see Elder Scrolls for freedom and Bioware RPGs for linearity).

3) Better character design: Adding ten million belts and zippers to a character is not a freakin' art style Nomura, nor would it be a good one even if it was.

Overall, I think that JRPGs are a rather unique style of RPGs that rather balances itself out with the style of WRPGs. Really, the biggest thing I would recommend JRPG makers (as well as WRPG makers) is to mix it up a bit. Try something new and unique.

 

[ElArabDeMagnifico]

Well this isn't more of a gameplay thing, but seeing as that Lost Odyssey was Four fuckmothering DVDs - It may be a good time to start using Blu-Ray...

but Microsoft keeps making things exclusive like the New Tales of Vesparia... that's gonna be like, 4 dvds minimum.. >_>

 

[Sasha Janre]

Vaan wasn't really the main character .. hell, he wasn't even party leader half the time if you just changed it.

Vaan isn't the main character in FFXII. He's the perspective character. The fact that we're seeing all the epic events from the perspective of someone who isn't the chosen one who is destined to save the world (or has hots for same) is quite refreshing. Vaan and Penelo are more Rosenkrantz and Guildenstern than Hamlet.

I agree with that! It was a better game than most people gave it credit for.

 

[Nugoo]

Never, never, never again have a major part of the game be about missing memories. FFVII was annoying about it, FFVIII made me want to break my playstation over my knee.

Although of course like any other plot element, when done well, this is an incredibly good way to trickle information out to the player about the plot and characters, whilst still allowing the player to define the personality of the character now thanks to their actions in the game.

The most effective uses were in Planescape: Torment and Lost Odyssey, two very different interpretations of the same concept.

Don't forget KOTOR.

 

[Natural Hazard]

Leave.. them as they are, look at LO, i have never had that much fun with a game for along time, it was a fairly basic in its mechanics, going back to the traditional Conditional turn based battle system, with random encounters.. Honestly screw enemys on-screen, screw advanced WRPG battle systems, if you were a true JRPG fan all you would care about was the direction of the story whilst all others are just a filler. A game doesn't have to be good just becasue it did something different to the last one, get over it play it and move on xD.

 

[slaygore]

In FF10, your characters can only have two different pieces of equipment on at once (one weapon, one armor), and you can become super-powerful in any way. On my file, Yuna hits for 9999 damage with her physical attack. Should a Summoner really be allowed to do that?

Yes, if your other characters are doing 99 999 as their minimum damage.

IMO overpowered attacks are awesome as long as they are backed up by insane looking moves. Take for example Disgaea. I know its a srpg, but the characters can go up to lv 9999 and do an insane amount of damage, some which can do a billion damage. It's always a blast seeing my character do it especially doing it to a weak enemy and saying "Oh yeah, look at what I can do"

I can understand why everyone hates random encounters since there are times when you don't want to fight and then they make you. Also it takes times just to load the damn battle screen and Lost Odyssey suffered from this cause not only did it take 10 freaking seconds to load the battle they also took the liberty to show you the scenery of the battle field. I JUST WANT TO FIGHT DAMNIT!!!

.Hack//GU is my favourite rpg cause it removes random encounters and turn based style into a more active gameplay. Not only can you move around and constantly attack your enemy in the battle screen you can see the enemies outside of battle and sneak attack them.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Leave.. them as they are, look at LO, i have never had that much fun with a game for along time, it was a fairly basic in its mechanics, going back to the traditional Conditional turn based battle system, with random encounters.. Honestly screw enemys on-screen, screw advanced WRPG battle systems, if you were a true JRPG fan all you would care about was the direction of the story whilst all others are just a filler. A game doesn't have to be good just becasue it did something different to the last one, get over it play it and move on xD.

While this thread seems to have attracted a lot more "JRPG's suck they should be more (or exactly) like WRPG's" I've gotta say that there are some changes that should be made... in places.

1) Turn Based Battles: These should STAY, realtime always feels too random, but they should be improved. Look at games like Shadow Hearts, Paper Mario and Grandia 3, all of these are turn based games that try and make Turn Based more exciting by adding in other elements. Paper Mario and Shadow Hearts both use hit timing, and Paper Mario and the Thousand Year door has a different control method for every attack. Grandia 3 does an amazing job of mixing action and turn based by making when you hit just as important as how and the real time combo system really makes things exciting.

2) World Design: A lot of JRPG's feel a little too random in their world design, the worst offenders in this category are Enchanted Arms, Lost Oddysey, FFX-2 (which really fucked with the otherwise well designed Spira) and the Star Ocean games. The best examples of World Design are the Suikoden series (large world full of distinct regions, cultures and races), Final Fantasy XII

 

[end_boss]

OK, sorry if I didn't get a chance to fully read through this thread. I'm on a bit of a time frame and just wanted to throw something out there.

Among the issues I have with JRPGs, one that stands out the most is level grinding. In games like Darksun or Fallout, the level grinding is minimal. Between the four games that consist those two series, I can only remember grinding at the very beginning of Darksun: Shattered Lands, and maybe a few times in Darksun: Wake of the Ravager. That's it. Otherwise, experience is given whenever I use a skill, and given at such a rate that is evenly paced throughout the game such that progression is natural, and I'm allowed to simply focus on the tasks at hand rather than going outside and running in circles blowing a random encounter mating call.

This is a huge thing for me, actually. I don't like my games to be a chore. I hate forced tedium. I've gone back to play Darksun and Fallout and their respective sequels because I had fun and was allowed to do what I wanted and not have to care about killing enough slimes to learn a new ability. With JRPGs, they can consider themselves lucky if I keep playing to the halfway point before throwing it in. Games should not be chores. San Andreas turned GTA into a chore; I played Vice City for about a year without even doing half the missions, just going out and having fun. Then San Andreas ruined it by forcing me to take care of my character more than I even take care of myself in real life.

Whether it be JRPGs or not, here's the key to winning my favour; extend the life of your product by making me want to play your game more, not by forcing me to. I already have other things going on in my life that I practically have to plan in advance to book myself time to get into any serious gaming, and if the game tries to force me to play it with constant level grinding, then so long as I have a power button, I'm not afraid to shut it off and do something else.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Among the issues I have with JRPGs, one that stands out the most is level grinding. In games like Darksun or Fallout, the level grinding is minimal. Between the four games that consist those two series, I can only remember grinding at the very beginning of Darksun: Shattered Lands, and maybe a few times in Darksun: Wake of the Ravager. That's it. Otherwise, experience is given whenever I use a skill, and given at such a rate that is evenly paced throughout the game such that progression is natural, and I'm allowed to simply focus on the tasks at hand rather than going outside and running in circles blowing a random encounter mating call.

This is a huge thing for me, actually. I don't like my games to be a chore. I hate forced tedium. I've gone back to play Darksun and Fallout and their respective sequels because I had fun and was allowed to do what I wanted and not have to care about killing enough slimes to learn a new ability. With JRPGs, they can consider themselves lucky if I keep playing to the halfway point before throwing it in. Games should not be chores. San Andreas turned GTA into a chore; I played Vice City for about a year without even doing half the missions, just going out and having fun. Then San Andreas ruined it by forcing me to take care of my character more than I even take care of myself in real life.

Whether it be JRPGs or not, here's the key to winning my favour; extend the life of your product by making me want to play your game more, not by forcing me to. I already have other things going on in my life that I practically have to plan in advance to book myself time to get into any serious gaming, and if the game tries to force me to play it with constant level grinding, then so long as I have a power button, I'm not afraid to shut it off and do something else.

As someone who always skipped leveling until I couldn't progress further, I find this a great statement on something that should be improved in JRPG's. They claim to be "cinematic" games, yet all of the Bioware products require significantly less grinding, rarely do you come to a point where you aren't levelled enough. Why not build games more around being able to quickly progress through interesting battles and areas from story sequence to story sequence and skip all this power leveling crap.

Cinematic is a strength, and JRPG's need to play to that instead of offering me a "playable movie" that comes to a screeching halt and forces me to grind every other boss.

 

[Nazrel]

I look at all these complaints and I can't but help think that that most of you complaining have only really played the mainstream vanilla JRPG's. Want a good game where you don't save the world? Play Suikoden V. What to play an anti-hero? Disgaea. Charater growth not entirely dependent of fighting? Mana Khemia. Non- random encounters? That's become a rather big list. More blood? Try almost any Shin Megami Tensei game, (Though it tends to be the localization that screws a lot of games on that. Yes I am bitter about Xenosaga Ep 3.).

Almost any complaint on this board, all I can think is What about (insert name here)?

As for the inherit superiority of WRPG's, I'm just not seeing it. Perhaps I just haven't played an good ones, because all the ones I've played were like glorified dungeon crawls.
Borrrring.

 

[Sektor88]

Try almost any Shin Megami Tensei game, (Though it tends to be the localization that screws a lot of games on that).

I dunno, I think we got it pretty good with some of the SMT games. I do want to see a Persona 2 Innocent Sin port though(maybe with better graphics even), even though I know it'll never happen.

 

[Natural Hazard]

... i think you are forgetting one thing, Some RPGs generally require some form of "grinding" as you all so nicely put it, to gain levels and certain stats, etc... So.. with that in hindsite.. if you knew that you would have to be doing some form of grinding.. why play the game in the first place? Personally i have never had a problem grinding enemies, for an hour or so, its not tedious and at the end of the day.. who says you have to? JRPGS' aren't known for being Mega hard, so maybe just fighting for a bit whilst going to the designated location, will be sufficient enough to get you along.

If it bugs you so much, don't play it. Becasue at the end of the day the guys making them probably won't give a dam about your complaints anyway, as grinding has never really been an issue, more of a pet peeve.

 

[Nazrel]

I dunno, I think we got it pretty good with some of the SMT games. I do want to see a Persona 2 Innocent Sin port though(maybe with better graphics even), even though I know it'll never happen.

I was talking about blood being removed from a lot of JRPG games when they were localized (such as Xenosaga Ep 3), not Shin Megami Tensei games being screwed in localizations.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Make every JRPG steampunk and with morally ambiguous protagonists. This fixes EVERYTHING.

... that's pretty much exactly what I want out of a game/movie/novel setting... I think I have a problem.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Now all I'll be able to do is desperately hope until some developer decides to make that game. Everything is ruined forever!