In Defence of Frank Miller

[userwhoquitthesite]

So, the Internet has gone crazy for sexism (and rape, but that's not the topic today). *sigh*

I don't see the problem.

Oversexualized? of course. Unrealistic? almost certainly.
And what's wrong with that? Women don't really look like this, so we shouldn't want to look at things that depict them otherwise?
Ridiculous.
Because its a "male" fantasy and there is no analogous thing for women? Because its objectification?
So?

Now, I'll admit, the thread title is bullshit to grab attention because Miller hasn't written anything decent for years, and no amount of debate over the merits of anti-gravity boobs will change that. But I will defend the ridiculous way women are portrayed in his and other comics/videogames

Now, I can understand some people don't find these hypersexualized female forms appealing. You are excused from the discussion. But most men will admit to feeling otherwise. And there IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I don't know any men who think "man, i won't deal with any woman who doesn't look like Power Girl" who isn't an extremely flawed person on multiple other levels. No one living in reality thinks all women should or even CAN look like Barb Wire. And therein lies my point.

Now, it's been said many times that hypermasculine characters aren't there for women's benefit, but rather to appeal to men and our self-aggrandizing fantasies. That's true enough. But the thing is, men aren't expected to look like that. Supposedly, women are expected to look like the unrealistic depictions in comics and videogames, so thats SO SEXIST and WHY THINGS MUST CHANGE. But then again, isn't the problem you, ladies?

Men know not to expect women to be physics-defying objects of beauty. Any that don't aren't worth your time in the first place. We can also see the Punisher be a walking slab of muscle and NOT think we are somehow inadequate because WE don't look like that. So why are women supposedly unable to do this? Isn't it a bit ridiculous? Why are women somehow so incapable of telling fantasy from reality that they think they are expected to be what we see in media? Are we saying women are inferior to men in this regard? That's ridiculous. Women should be (and, in my experience, are) just as capable as men at realizing that the Olympian figures in media aren't real. Can't we all grow up and realize the problem isn't Scarlett Johannsen being able to floor a man with a single punch without being blemished by a single bulging muscle, but that we SAY there is a problem?

So why the debate over sexualized characters? Simple: we think sex is bad. And that's just sad. We compartmentalize and hide one of our biggest biological drives away and try to pretend it's not there. Is sex appropriate in every scenario? Of course not. But then, we watch movies with exceptional-looking people. Why is that different from playing a game where everyone looks like an artisan sculpture? Because they are "real people" and thus the expectation is more reasonable? Stupid. Celebrities aren't real people (as compared to the public at large) any more than the Marvel lineup. Professional actors have copious amounts of money and free time enabling them to look better than 90% of us ever will.
We want to be entertained VISUALLY when we do things. That's why the phrase "eye candy" exists. We like looking at shiny stuff. And there's nothing wrong with that.


In summation, I don't want to see Tony Stark with a beer gut or Wonder Woman with a broken nose and a flat chest

Captcha: Goody Goody Gumdrops!

 

[Kolby Jack]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

 

[Imthatguy]

Well written, reasonable and persuasive sir. I also felt hyper masculine characters needed to be addressed as well but people keep throwing up flak about them being fantasy self-images for men that is true HOWEVER it does not change the fact that they are unreasonable depictions of men and correspondingly hold up sexist attitudes of what a man should be.

For every Power Girl there is a Superman

Every Lara Croft a Kratos

Every Playmate a Mr Olympia

Spoiler

We could also get into how pornography turns men into nothing but a phallus but I'm gonna keep is pg-13

I also have a bone to pick with the OP in that creators making sexualized characters, while not a bad thing, could at least create serious female characters more often.

 

[Phasmal]

I don't think sex is bad, that's dumb.
I also think the women are portrayed has to change.
I'd watch MovieBob's `Gender Games` for more of what I mean (because honestly I'm so sick of this topic).
Basically - sexyness not a problem. Nothing but sexyness, problem.

Now can we all move on?

 

[Pyramid Head]

Okay then.
Are you going to actually post an argument? We know people who are satisfied with mindless spank material exist, it doesn't change the fact that oversexualization being largely the only option and it almost always being for the sake of male viewers is a problem that needs to be fixed. I don't know about you, but i'm fine as far as porn goes. I don't need Frank Miller's garbage to keep my cock and right hand happy, i've got stuff for that. But i don't jack off 24/7 but actually like to stimulate my frontal lobe on occasion and want something more than just a whore and a hero with an IQ number more commonly associated with the era the Beatles played in. But the problem is, i'm not getting it, i'm just finding countless representations of stupid whores and the goddamn Batman, and it's not interesting or stimulating, it's boring. And it does have societal fallout, even if it doesn't affect men as much.

 

[uneek]

I'd watch MovieBob's `Gender Games` for more of what I mean (because honestly I'm so sick of this topic).

Ditto on that. That video actually helped me visualize the problem.

 

[ratzofftoya]

OP's basic argument seems to be "It's OK to do this to women because it's done to men." But there's no reciprocity in this relationship. Men have set up pretty much every institution we have to serve their own ends and exclude women. Women face sexual harassment and even quid pro quo scenarios at work way more often than men, and it's precisely because of these expectations. When you've arranged society in such a way that men are quite clearly on top--this is evident both social and in terms of things like pay equality, etc.--it's pretty clear that women ought to take these unrealistic expectations far more seriously than men. To pretend that looks "matter" (for lack of a more precise term) as much for men in their careers and social lives as they do for women in those realms is delusion to an absurd degree. Add to it the fact that most of this media is PRODUCED by men, and you've got yourself a perfectly good reason why women shouldn't be drawn as big-tittied penis-sleeves and nothing else. Saying you're more entertained by Jessica Alba than, say, Cate Blanchett is just a betrayal of your own state of mind rather than the state of males everywhere.

 

[Cheery Lunatic]

I thought people took a shot at Frank Miller not because of sexism but because his stories often jump down the rabbit hole.

 

[CrashBang]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

Exactly. I remember when Bayonetta came out and there was so much talk of her being over-sexualised, but her 'sexiness' was used as part of her character, even part of her charm. The same can be applied to any heroine or female protagonist, but Frank Miller ignores that and just writes female characters who are purely sex objects with no further use, depth or intrigue.

While I think Batman: Year One is an excellent story, there's no way Miller could allow Catwoman to simply be a woman down on her luck, doing what it takes to get by, she had to be a prostitute, for fuck's sake, just like every single female character in Sin City and 300.

 

[burningdragoon]

"Unrealistic" is only a part of the problem, not the problem itself.

 

[malestrithe]

The argument has never been about how he draws women. The argument is about how the industry has evolved around him and he chooses to remain locked in the late 70s and early 80s mentality that got him the most success. Other artists and writers have evolved with the times. Rob Liefeld is a different writer than he is nowdays, so is John Byrne, Grant Morrison and so many others showed some evolution with their work. Their work evolved over time, with elements expanding their entire careers. All of his projects post Sin City feel out of place when compared to the rest of what's out there.

That's where the real debate lies. It is not in some shoehorned misandry argument.

 

[Chemical Alia]

There's nothing wrong with appealing characters, it's just not all I want to see. That's it, really. Maybe these industries could grow up and diversify a bit if it wasn't so limited.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Remind me why Frank Miller has fans again?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist.

Are you sure you mean misogynist? Does Miller really have a hatred of women? Like really a hatred, like the kind that he KKK has.

 

[Kahunaburger]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist.

Are you sure you mean misogynist? Does Miller really have a hatred of women? Like really a hatred, like the kind that he KKK has.

Probably, yeah. He's a weird dude.

 

[JimB]

Now, I'll admit, the thread title is bullshit to grab attention

So...you're saying we shouldn't both engaging you on the topic, because you're willing to be dishonest?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

Okay but what if thats the only stories he wants to write? Should he only write what society finds acceptable?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Ya know I wrote a story where the main character called a gay character an abomination, does that mean I hate gay people too?

There are probably better lines to use against Frank, but a line like that really gives insight into the perpetual loneliness of Harv... ya know the guy with such low self-esteem because he looks so ugly, and here he is staring at a beautiful woman and he doesn't understand why shes gay (no shit, does he seem like a guy whos well educated?) his only assumption is she's gay because he figues she can't get a man which is absurd to him. Ironic considering how he himself has a kind and noble personality that he could get a girlfriend if he actually tried.