In the Prequels, the Confederates are actually the "good guys"

[Zontar]

Star Wars has always been about allegories for real life wars, with the Original being more or less World War 2 in space and the Endor part of Jedi being Vietnam (at least that's what I've heard). Now it's easy to see how the Prequels are an allegory for the American Civil War, however if you think about it, apart from the few Jedi generals for the Republic and a few Confederate generals, it's the Republic which is evil and the Confederacy which is good, and here's my case:

1) The Republic made the war necessary.

With the source material seen within the movies themselves, we are shown that the worlds which seceded did not want to do so, but where given no choice. A bureaucracy as large as that of the Republic (governing over a million or so worlds), it's understandable that there are problems in efficiency and corruption, especially when the senators representing worlds on the fringes of the Republic have to contest with all the other senators for time with the senate's attention (the amount of time we see The Naboo has on the floor shows that there are worlds which are considered more important then others for this limited time). What we are shown and told is that these world tried to negotiate reforms which would be needed for them to function properly, to be able to prosper as the inner worlds which where getting more attention and priority in their problems being solves. And the Republic's reaction? The Military Creation Act.

2) The Confederate army of droids and fleet was a deterrent for war, and was not meant to be used.

The incident at Naboo in Phantom Menace showed the Republic it needed a military, and the creation of one at a time where the Republic was about to split into two made the breakaway state need to have one if it was to not be conquered in an instant. It was out of necessity that the Droid Army and the Banking Clan's fleet went from small forces used to police the trade lanes to a full military, it was in response to a nation with a larger economy and greater manpower threatening the creation of a military. It may not have been the Republic's intent, however it was an act that was logical from the separatist's perspective.

3) The Republic attacked first.

By the start of Episode II, the Confederacy is a de-facto state already, in the proses of homogenizing its political and economic structure from that of a breakaway into a real state. At this time there is no war, and there may even have been some low level relations between the Republic and Confederacy, or at the very least worlds within both (the enclaves of both in each other's territory without there being official war makes this very likely). So what else was happening at this time? The Republic was talking about creating an army (with the official opposition party being against it, though what the opposition was beyond The Naboo and Alderan is never stated), and the Confederate Droid Army made for their defense. And what was it that started the war, an attack on boarder worlds? An incursion into the Inner Core? An attack on the capital itself? No, it doesn't come from the Confederates at all. It's the Republic which starts the war, with an Incursion turned all out invasion of a Confederate world, which had been unprovoked as the only justification was the production of a fully justifiable army.

"But wait", you might say, "the Confederates started it with Jango Fett, who lead Obi-wan there". Well, the problem with that is, Fett was a private actor, which means he's the problem of whoever's territory he is in. When Obi-Wan was following him in his investigation, he was in Republic territory, in which he had the authority to do so, however, after he entered Confederate territory, his authority vanished because he was in another state, and was there illegally, so his actions where at best an illegal act and at worst the precursor to invasion.

4) The Confederacy was the underdog the whole time.

Now, when looking at the 'official' numbers of soldiers (which are wildly different depending on how one looks at them), one would think the Confederates have an advantage. After all, they have more droids right? However, the bulk of those droids where cheap worker units given a gun and sent into battle (the main battle droids where clearly created with cheap labor as their intent instead of combat, unlike the expensive Droidekas), and coupled with the manpower and economy the Republic had behind it compared to the Confederacy (up to 100 to 1 depending on the source), then it's clear that the best they could hope for was for their own independence to be secured. Just look at Coresant and the other Inner Worlds we are shown in Revenge of the Sith, they are not ones in a full wartime economy, they are clearly in a peacetime state with an active nightlife and a casual attitude towards even the war itself. "Oh, there's a war? I didn't notice. Wait, you can see the fighting in the sky? Well, the planetary barrier will stop everything. Might as well watch and enjoy the show". If the Republic was ever in serious danger of loosing, there would have been mass conscription and rationing of resources. Instead the bulk of the Grand Army of the Republic (another Civil War namedrop) is, for the most part, clones, as is the Navy, with the rest being local planetary security forces (which are glorified police, as we saw in Phantom Menace). Not that's all well and good, until you also realize...

5) The Republic uses slaves, and lots of them.

The clones are slaves. That's it. They where created to fight for the Republic, and no one cares what they have to say on the matter. They are shown that they have hopes, dreams, aspirations of their own. They give themselves names to replace the registration code that is used for identification, they give themselves unique haircuts to make it easier to tell who is who, they have different dialects which they use for casual talk, and it's likely that they have all manor of mannerism that are different from each other. They are sentient, self aware, intelligent beings who are indistinguishable from other humans within the Republic, and how does the Republic treat them? It forces them to fight against their will against an enemy they don't know for a cause they don't believe in. They don't want to fight? They never wanted to fight? Insubordination. Your rights? Sorry, not my problem. We never see a clone or two on leave, we never see them flirting with the local girls as real soldiers do, all we see is them fighting. And what happened when the war ended, did those who stopped wanting to fight get to? No, they kept doing their job as the army of the Empire. And when their creators tried to use them to rebel, then what? Then they took the most loyal, best of the best soldiers, and then committed an act of genocide against the remaining clones.

And so there you have it, the Republic man take many names from the Union's side of the Civil War, and many attitudes, however they where the evil ones, the ones using slaves. The ones who took the only hope that a large part of the galaxy had and smashed it to oblivion. And we are supposed to think of them as the good guys only because a few of their leading military where good people and a few of their opponents where less then honest.

 

[JoJo]

Heh, good first post, welcome to the Escapist Zontar! Be sure to stay out of the basement, press any red buttons you see and fear the Injustice League!

As for your post, I don't doubt that the Republic was morally questionable at best, but that really shouldn't be a surprise considering who their Supreme Chancellor turned out to be. The Republic was hijacked and changed into a malevolent Empire in a number of small steps, which even many of good characters within failed to spot until it was too late.

 

[skywolfblue]

The same thought occurred to me at one time or another. Though your allegory is much more in-depth.

Two more things to add: The battle for coruscant was a lot like Gettysburg. The confeds marched north to take the capital in a bid to end the war, only to get smashed, yet the leading general and the army is allowed to escape. The federation invaded coruscant to in a bid to end the war, got stomped, and likewise the leading general and some of his army manage to escape.

Also: Consider Palpatine as Lincoln. Lincoln was pretty damn power hungry. Everyone always remembers him fondly for the Emancipation Proclamation, but in reality he didn't care so much about freeing the slaves as much as preserving his grip on the union. Also, he suspended habeas corpus (the right to a trial).

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

 

[Zontar]

I don't doubt that the Republic was morally questionable at best, but that really shouldn't be a surprise considering who their Supreme Chancellor turned out to be. The Republic was hijacked and changed into a malevolent Empire in a number of small steps, which even many of good characters within failed to spot until it was too late.

You make a good point, but what I was trying to convince people of isn't so much that the Republic is evil (the story is about it becoming the Empire after all), as much as it is that the Confederates where always good and not the cigar smoking villains the movies (and to a lesser extent the animated show) portrayed them to be.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Yes, organisations like the Corporate Alliance, Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, and InterGalactic Banking Clan were totally fighting for freedom.
/Sarcasm

Discounting the fact that both sides were patsys for the real enemy the Sith there are a few holes in your ideas.

1) The Republic made the war necessary.

While correct that the Republic was a bureaucratic nightmare filled with corruption, various CIS organisations used this to their advantage, most notably during Episode 1. In-fact the Commerce Guild actively lobbied and bribed senators in order to pass legislation allowing them a de-facto monopoly on banking in the Outer Rim.

2) The Confederate army of droids and fleet was a deterrent for war, and was not meant to be used.

The theory that all the military hardware was a 'fleet in being' gets quite firmly shot down even discounting the blockade and eventual invasion of Naboo. The forces in question, with names like the NR-N99 Persuader-class droid enforcer, were used by the Corporate Alliance against Outer Rim worlds that opposed its development plans or protested against its unfair business practices.

3) The Republic attacked first.

"And when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."
―Count Dooku
Yep, sounds like the Separatists planning to strike first, only Obi-Wan stumbling onto the droid build up and the Sith created that clone army for the Republic stopped them from landing the first real blow.

4) The Confederacy was the underdog the whole time.

Yes and no, the CIS were closer to the Japanese during World War 2, trying to knock out the opponent before the larger industrial base can convert to a wartime footing. They did come close with Operation Durge's Lance striking at least 26 Strategic Inner Rim systems, introducing a biological weapon that devastated one sector and rendered the Core Founder world Humbarine uninhabitable by a hour-long orbital bombardment. Later on it became mid to end war Nazi Germany, fortifying its borders and forcing the Republic into long sieges.

5) The Republic uses slaves, and lots of them.

Before the battle of Genosis there were still debate on whether or not the Republic should re-arm, Senators Amidala and Organa were some of the most vocal members against it. It was only after the the clusterfuck there that the Senate decided that the Clone Army that had 'mysteriously' been formed by a now long dead Jedi should be used against the CIS.

The CIS are not by any stretch of the imangination the good guys in this piece, then again neither are the Repulbic, both were mearly pawns used by the real villans of the piece, the Sith to destroy the Jedi Order.

If you want a 'nice guy' who didn't use slaves or were a group of money grubbing dicks try the Corellians, who simply redriw its representation from the Senate and declared themselves neutral in the conflict.

 

[Zontar]

Yes, organisations like the Corporate Alliance, Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, and InterGalactic Banking Clan were totally fighting for freedom.
/Sarcasm

They probably where not fighting for freedom, however the same holds true for real world nations which have seceded from another state (a perfect example of this being the United States itself).

The theory that all the military hardware was a 'fleet in being' gets quite firmly shot down even discounting the blockade and eventual invasion of Naboo. The forces in question, with names like the NR-N99 Persuader-class droid enforcer, were used by the Corporate Alliance against Outer Rim worlds that opposed its development plans or protested against its unfair business practices.

This may be true, however I'm only using source material from the movies themselves, as I have not seen even a fraction of the EU material.

"And when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."
―Count Dooku
Yep, sounds like the Separatists planning to strike first, only Obi-Wan stumbling onto the droid build up and the Sith created that clone army for the Republic stopped them from landing the first real blow.

Given the context, it seemed to me like a politician trying to secure the support of industrialists and financiers by trying to give them a false image of security in their investments (all knew states need to do this after all, and what politician doesn't overstate the truth?).

Yes and no, the CIS were closer to the Japanese during World War 2, trying to knock out the opponent before the larger industrial base can convert to a wartime footing. They did come close with Operation Durge's Lance striking at least 26 Strategic Inner Rim systems, introducing a biological weapon that devastated one sector and rendered the Core Founder world Humbarine uninhabitable by a hour-long orbital bombardment. Later on it became mid to end war Nazi Germany, fortifying its borders and forcing the Republic into long sieges.

I'll give you that, this is a valid interpretation, however again the source material I'm using for this argument is limited to the movies themselves for the reasons of my limited knowledge of the EU of that period and the fact that until only days ago it was only the movies themselves that where officially cannon.

Before the battle of Genosis there were still debate on whether or not the Republic should re-arm, Senators Amidala and Organa were some of the most vocal members against it. It was only after the the clusterfuck there that the Senate decided that the Clone Army that had 'mysteriously' been formed by a now long dead Jedi should be used against the CIS.

Though this is true, that does not change the fact that they are sentient beings which are being forced to fight a war against their will without any law being enacted to specifically draft them (and if there was, it would be a discriminatory one as it would only effect clones).

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

-snip-

So, Movie only lore? I'll bite.

1) The Republic made the war necessary.

The Blockade of Naboo was a clear illegal act on the part the Trade Federation and could easily been used as cause belli for the Republic, instead they spent the time bickering and forced the Chancellor to send in A Jedi and his apprentice to mediate some form of solution. You could interpret the actions of the Republic as reason enough to go to war, a 'smash the system' as it were, but the Senate scene shows that the Trade Federation had unreasonable amount of control over it already.

2) The Confederate army of droids and fleet was a deterrent for war, and was not meant to be used.

I discounted the Invasion of Naboo as an example mainly because:
a) Its rather a cheap (but effective) shot.
b) I like a challenge and enjoy wiki walking to confirm half remembered facts.

Anyway A blockade is a definite move from 'Fleet in Being' to active threat.

3) The Republic attacked first.

Lets discount the Invasion of Naboo again for this one, and go with the quote again with another. "And when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."
―Count Dooku
"I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two."
―Palpatine
Both sides were rapidly becoming more and more radicalised, although the Republic less so due to the actions of Sentor Amidala by Dooku and Palaptine aka The Sith.

4) The Confederacy was the underdog the whole time.

Do you Remember the Title Scroll for Episode 3? Here's a refresser.

War! The Republic is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Sith Lord, Count Dooku.
There are heroes on both sides.
Evil is everywhere.

In a stunning move, the
fiendish droid leader, General
Grievous, has swept into the
Republic capital and kidnapped
Chancellor Palpatine, leader of
the Galactic Senate.

As the Separatist Droid Army
attempts to flee the besieged
capital with their valuable
hostage, two Jedi Knights lead a
desperate mission to rescue the
captive Chancellor....

Republic crumbling? An attack on the Capital that succeeded in taking the Chancellor captive? This is your underdog?

5) The Republic uses slaves, and lots of them.

While there are several clones that vice dissatisfaction at their lot in life, they are from EU sources. For the most part the clones are not really 'being forced to fight a war against their will,' you have to remember that they were raised from birth and had their DNA hard coded be loyal and fight for the Republic by the Kaminoans. Ironically it was the Jedi, the clones 'masters' that helped the clones with their individuality by treating them as humans rather than organic battle droids.

Limiting yourself to the Movies isn't going to do you any favours trying to paint the CIS as anything but evil/stupid.

EDIT: Whoops.

 

[Zontar]

The Blockade of Naboo was a clear illegal act on the part the Trade Federation and could easily been used as cause belli for the Republic, instead they spent the time bickering and forced the Chancellor to send in A Jedi and his apprentice to mediate some form of solution. You could interpret the actions of the Republic as reason enough to go to war, a 'smash the system' as it were, but the Senate scene shows that the Trade Federation had unreasonable amount of control over it already.

The Invasion of Naboo was illegal, however we are never told weather or not the Trade Federation is a state or a corporation, and in either event the end of Phantom Menace implies that the problem will be dealt with accordingly, so it's less of a cause belli for a state which was created a decade after the event and more of an untrustworthy organization joining a cause (and given who it was against, it would be good for propaganda purposes. "Hey, we have people who openly defied the Senate and where only brought down by an act which could itself be considered an act of rebellion against the Republic by legal technicality". They'd probably spin it better then me though).

I discounted the Invasion of Naboo as an example mainly because:
a) Its rather a cheap (but effective) shot.
b) I like a challenge and enjoy wiki walking to confirm half remembered facts.

Anyway A blockade is a definite move from 'Fleet in Being' to active threat.

Like I said, by the start of the war Republican retribution had probably already occurred, and for the one real space battle we see in the war the vast majority of the ships are either Banking Clan or Techno-Union ships.

Lets discount the Invasion of Naboo again for this one, and go with the quote again with another. "And when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."
―Count Dooku
"I will not let this Republic that has stood for a thousand years be split in two."
―Palpatine
Both sides were rapidly becoming more and more radicalised, although the Republic less so due to the actions of Sentor Amidala by Dooku and Palaptine aka The Sith.

You have a point, however the point both are making seemed, at least to me, to be simply one was ready to leave the Republic, and to do so with a fight if they had to, and the other simply would not allow that to happen. From the perspective of the people within the legislators of both (presumably for the CIS, as we never see theirs on screen, only Industrialists and Financiers pledging their support for the new state) these are perfectly logical reactions to the events that would come. Hell, for Dooku, with how he died in 3, I was under the impression he thought the Sith would rule the galaxy with him ruling the Confederacy while Palpatine controlled the Republic (and in 2 he outright betrays Paplatine, showing that he might have been a more benevolent leader then his master).

Do you Remember the Title Scroll for Episode 3? Here's a refresser.

War! The Republic is crumbling
under attacks by the ruthless
Sith Lord, Count Dooku.
There are heroes on both sides.
Evil is everywhere.

In a stunning move, the
fiendish droid leader, General
Grievous, has swept into the
Republic capital and kidnapped
Chancellor Palpatine, leader of
the Galactic Senate.

As the Separatist Droid Army
attempts to flee the besieged
capital with their valuable
hostage, two Jedi Knights lead a
desperate mission to rescue the
captive Chancellor....

Republic crumbling? An attack on the Capital that succeeded in taking the Chancellor captive? This is your underdog?

We never see the actual crumbling of the Republic, and Lucas has stated he made it up as he went (which explains how the CIS can have heros in an army that had next to no people in it). Plus, the attack seemed more like an all-or-nothing gamble in the form of a quick blitz instead of a real reflection of the war (the planetary shield never went down after all), and after the battle we never see their fleet in action again, which could be interpreted as it being crushed to a degree of making reinforcement of held positions impossible or at the lease a logistical nightmare.

While there are several clones that vice dissatisfaction at their lot in life, they are from EU sources. For the most part the clones are not really 'being forced to fight a war against their will,' you have to remember that they were raised from birth and had their DNA hard coded be loyal and fight for the Republic by the Kaminoans. Ironically it was the Jedi, the clones 'masters' that helped the clones with their individuality by treating them as humans rather than organic battle droids.

They are still sending million to their death without the least of consent in the act. For all we know the clones may have been lead to believe that upon the war's end, one way or another, what they would get is their freedom (which would make their extermination of the Jedi, who many have made personal relationships with, actually understandable instead of being an example of Lucas not understanding biology). I actually want to know why the Jedi are even generals if they are supposedly pacifist monks. I know there's probably some EU explanation, however it's never even hinted at in the movies.

Limiting yourself to the Movies isn't going to do you any favours trying to paint the CIS as anything but evil/stupid.

The leadership was filled with evil/stupid, I'll give you that (though the Republic was filled to the brim with evil/stupid or good/stupid people), however my point was that, as a symbol for what it stood for, the Confederacy was good, was fair, was just, and was in the right during the war.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

The Invasion of Naboo was illegal, however we are never told weather or not the Trade Federation is a state or a corporation, and in either event the end of Phantom Menace implies that the problem will be dealt with accordingly, so it's less of a cause belli for a state which was created a decade after the event and more of an untrustworthy organization joining a cause (and given who it was against, it would be good for propaganda purposes. "Hey, we have people who openly defied the Senate and where only brought down by an act which could itself be considered an act of rebellion against the Republic by legal technicality". They'd probably spin it better then me though).

The Trade Federation had a place on the Senate, so state or not it is considered at least the equivalent of a ruling planetary body. As for propaganda, "Yes we're the guys who blockaded and invaded a neutral territory! You should totally let us into your peaceful breakaway movement!" Remember the names of the main CIS? Corporate Alliance, Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, InterGalactic Banking Clan, if there was any desire to leave the Republic it was less 'freedom!' and more they're oppressing us with taxes (and not in the poor American Revolutionary way, but large interstellar corporations trying to squeeze every last drop of profit way).

Like I said, by the start of the war Republican retribution had probably already occurred, and for the one real space battle we see in the war the vast majority of the ships are either Banking Clan or Techno-Union ships.

Actually those massive ball ships on the planet of Genosis are Lucrehulk-class core ships of the Trade Federation. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lucrehulk-class_Core_Ship
While there were some reprucutions (shown in the EU) Nute Gunray remained as Viceroy so it appears the 'retribution' was more of a slap on the wrist than anything.

You have a point, however the point both are making seemed, at least to me, to be simply one was ready to leave the Republic, and to do so with a fight if they had to, and the other simply would not allow that to happen. From the perspective of the people within the legislators of both (presumably for the CIS, as we never see theirs on screen, only Industrialists and Financiers pledging their support for the new state) these are perfectly logical reactions to the events that would come. Hell, for Dooku, with how he died in 3, I was under the impression he thought the Sith would rule the galaxy with him ruling the Confederacy while Palpatine controlled the Republic (and in 2 he outright betrays Paplatine, showing that he might have been a more benevolent leader then his master).

We are obviously having differing opinions on that scene so we'll best leave it at that.

We never see the actual crumbling of the Republic, and Lucas has stated he made it up as he went (which explains how the CIS can have heros in an army that had next to no people in it). Plus, the attack seemed more like an all-or-nothing gamble in the form of a quick blitz instead of a real reflection of the war (the planetary shield never went down after all), and after the battle we never see their fleet in action again, which could be interpreted as it being crushed to a degree of making reinforcement of held positions impossible or at the lease a logistical nightmare.

1) There is no mention of the planetary shield in the movie up or down.
2) They managed to (somehow) capture someone on the surface and bring him to a ship in orbit (EU sources state ships can't leave a planet with its shields up)
3) They had captured the Chancellor, if he wasn't orchestrating the entire thing no doubt they would have fought their way out and left rather than let Dooku be killed.

They are still sending million to their death without the least of consent in the act. For all we know the clones may have been lead to believe that upon the war's end, one way or another, what they would get is their freedom (which would make their extermination of the Jedi, who many have made personal relationships with, actually understandable instead of being an example of Lucas not understanding biology). I actually want to know why the Jedi are even generals if they are supposedly pacifist monks. I know there's probably some EU explanation, however it's never even hinted at in the movies.

They followed Order 66 because they were loyal to the Republic, not to their commanding officers. Again there is plenty of EU abut the clones but the movie logic was the Palpatine as head of the Republic was supreme commander of all forces and could command them to do anything. As for consent your asking someone that's been literally crafted for battle, indoctrinated that they are to serve the Republic by their creators at the bequest of a Jedi Master who could have possibly been dead and replaced at the time to have a moral conscious against war? As for having warriors with precognitive abilities, telekinesis, and worth easily dozens of normal troopers serving as battlefield commanders (note how the Jedi while being called generals tended to command from the front)? That's a easy one.

The leadership was filled with evil/stupid, I'll give you that (though the Republic was filled to the brim with evil/stupid or good/stupid people), however my point was that, as a symbol for what it stood for, the Confederacy was good, was fair, was just, and was in the right during the war.

Yep, they were good guys that took over a neutral world (Utapau) to hide in, that had a group that invaded a neutral world (with the same leader no less). As a symbol against Republic corruption, the CIS was not only hijacked by the Sith but one could argue it was already hijacked by greedy self-serving interests before it got off the ground.

 

[wooty]

Wow, this is all very in depth stuff. I usually just saw it as the CIS were seen as the bad guys simply because "they don't have Jedi knights on their side". Then again, I've never really been one for deep discussions on sci-fi movies, but its been an interesting read nonetheless.

 

[Mr. Charles]

Regarding the point of who struck first I would sumbit two possibilities - it could be argued that the assasination attempt of Senator Amidala at the start of Attack of the Clones is akin to the assaniation of Franz Ferdinand in the build up to WW1 and the subsequent events resemble the rapid escleation prior to that particular conflict. In the alternative it can be argued that the actions of the republic were a hostage (Obi-wan and the others) rescue (albeit an over the top one) that led to conflcit.

Fundmentaly talking about the two factions - republic and seperatist - good and evil doesn't really come into in my veiw. Both factions fundmentally were controlled by the same person who used the war as a means of control. However if you take that away there are just two oposing sides with different veiws on how to run a government. As an Englishman I would liken this to the American revolution were the revolutionaries over-threw a monarch who's rule and government ignored the needs of the people and and replaced it with a government of the people for the people. Fundmentally there were two oposing veiws on how to run a country, like in the conflict in Star Wars. Take the Maniacal language used by the Sith away and thats what the conflict boils down to. At least in my veiw...

 

[Silvanus]

I've had a similar thought, I must say. The Separarist leaders are clearly dubious people, using inordinately large droid armies in dubious conflicts, but they are indeed underdogs fighting for independence from an also-dubious Republic.

They aren't evil, and are no more manipulated by the Sith than the Republic is. Gunray and Grievous push the boat a bit, though.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

I see your point on the Confederacy and I'll raise you one further:

The Empire are also the good guys. Or, at least, not especially the bad guys.

Think for a second: what exactly do the Empire do to deserve to be the bad-guy. In the expanded universe they are tyrannical racists, but in the actual films? We see very little of what makes the supposed 'evil empire' so evil.

The main thing we see is them killing the Jawas and Luke's parents at the beginning of the first film. Ok, these are pretty bad war-crimes, however lets not forget they are at war. They know the death-star plans have been stolen and thus are willing to go very far indeed in order to stop them from falling into the hands of their enemies, knowing that those plans could lead to the deaths of a huge number of soldiers.
As it turns out the empire was probably right to be so aggressive in their attempts to retrieve the plans: the destruction of the Death Star was highly destructive, presumably killing tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. Overzealousness in the use of force on Tattooine is fairly justified with so many thousands of peoples' lives on the line.

Of course, the Rebellion had to destroy the Death Star to survive, as the Death Star would end the civil war very quickly.
But what called for the rebellion's need to exist anyway? The worst things we see the empire do is make life hard for criminals: are we really supposed to root for the likes of Lando Calrissian and Han Solo? How can we root for the rebellion when they don't seem to serve anyone's interests except criminals and the old nobility (who are the only groups we see really suffer under the empire's rule).

'But the empire isn't democratic!' I hear you cry.

But was the rebellion? Were the rebellion ever fighting for democracy? There is nothing in the original trilogy to suggest so. Who the hell elected Mon Mothma? And if 'Princess' Leia is anything to go on, the rebellion was all up for a monarchy.

--

Alderaan. Alderaan is the problem in this theory, the one mindlessly destructive event that killed millions for no other reason than to gloat. This is the act that turns the empire from overly-officious bureaucrat big-government into full-blown Third-Reich levels of evil.
As an act it is clearly indefensible. Or is it?

It is clear that the Empire has struggled to quell the rebellion for a long time, and by Grand Moff Tarkin's torture of Leia we can surmise that the Empire has no idea of where the Rebellion are based. He (rightly) doesn't trust anything Leia says, and so Alderaan was a perfect target for the Death Star.

Despite Leia's claims of Alderaan's pacifism, Alderaan is clearly a highly pro-rebellion planet: both Leia and Bail Organa (two of the most senior members of the rebellion) hail from here. The Empire don't know where the rebels are, so they can't use the Death Star directly on them, so they, understandably, target the rebellion's backers, Alderaan.

The destruction of Alderaan is justifiable if we view it in the same terms as we do Hiroshima and Nagasaki: a huge attack claiming a great number of lives in order to make the opposing side submit and save lives in the long-term. We only believe Alderaan is innocent because Organa Bin Laden told us so. Obviously she is an utterly biased individual on this matter, as a high-profile terrorist about to watch her funding go down the drain.

The Empire really isn't any worse than the Rebellion except for the fact that its fun to root for the underdogs.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

They are still sending million to their death without the least of consent in the act. For all we know the clones may have been lead to believe that upon the war's end, one way or another, what they would get is their freedom (which would make their extermination of the Jedi, who many have made personal relationships with, actually understandable instead of being an example of Lucas not understanding biology). I actually want to know why the Jedi are even generals if they are supposedly pacifist monks. I know there's probably some EU explanation, however it's never even hinted at in the movies.

The Jedi are guardians of peace in the galaxy, not pacifists. While they do not like violence or war, they understand that sometimes a threat is so great that extraordinary measures must be taken.

The clones were bred specifically to be loyal to Palpatine. This is stated in numerous sources. So regardless of anything that happened, Palpatine's orders, like order 66, took precedence. The clones aren't like other humans. They don't have the same level of individuality or free will as you or me. The clones do consent, but the value of that consent is questionable due to the training and indoctrination program they go through while being raised.

Spoiler: first three paragraphs from the wookiepedia clone trooper page

Clone troopers were an army of identical, genetically-modified clones, created to serve in the Grand Army of the Republic during the full-scale intergalactic conflict that came to be known as the Clone Wars. Grown at an accelerated rate and raised in the laboratories and facilities of Kamino, the clone troopers were trained throughout the first ten years of their lives to become one of the most efficient military forces in galactic history. Bred for the sole purpose of combat, the clones were indoctrinated with unwavering obedience to the Galactic Republic and -more specifically- their Commander-in-Chief, the Supreme Chancellor.

For roughly three years, the clone troopers fought to defend Republic sovereignty against the Separatist rebellion. Throughout the conflict, the members of the Jedi Order served as commanders and generals of the Grand Army and, thus, they served alongside their clone soldiers on many occasions. But the covert Sith plot to seize control of the galaxy, masterminded by the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, effectively caused the clones to betray and destroy the Republic that they were sworn to protect with their lives. Sidious, in his public guise as Chancellor Palpatine, issued Order 66 to the clone troopers on the eve of the Clone Wars' end.

The contingency order declared that all Jedi were traitors to the Republic and, hence forward, subject to summary execution. Due to their inability to disobey any order, the clone troopers carried out the Chancellor's command without question. Though a small percentage of clones ignored the order, the vast majority of the clones executed their unsuspecting Jedi officers, many of whom had come to trust the clones with their lives.

 

[Terminal Blue]

If the Confederacy are the "underdog", then they are an underdog whose leadership is composed of self-serving megacorporations and autocratic governments.

I'm not sure it's as grey as it appears. Now, it would have been great if it was, but I don't think George Lucas is that good.

 

[Mr. Charles]

Loving this debate - on the point of the Empire not being Evil, I have to disagree - the use of a weapon of mass destruction in the fashion Tarquin uses it is not justifiable - I personally can never justify the use of a WMD but in this case the justification that it would save lives in the long-term fails as ultimately the rebellion coninued - it could be further argued that this escelated the violence as it led to the destruction of the Death Star. Beyond this the mere use of touture by the Empire on political opponents marks it out as a repressive, if not outright evil regime

 

[SanguiniusMagnificum]

None of them are the "good guys". The Republic is an allegory for the transition from the Roman Republic into the Roman Empire, with one person being granted "emergency powers" without wanting to give them up (compare Gaius Julius Caesar to Palpatine), the Jedi Order ( specifically the council) a bunch of old dudes too self-absorbed to understand the context and scale of galactic politics.

The Confederation on the other hand is a collection of megacorps, warlords and even an incredibly wealthy Dark Jedi (Count Dooku), out for personal wealth and power, not freedom.

Both of them were used as pawns by a Sith Lord that wanted to turn the Republic into an Empire under his control. Both sides committed atrocities during the war, they're just two different shades of grey. Simple as that. The whole moral ambiguity thing is about the only thing that I liked about the prequels.

 

[Ellie O'Daire]

If anyone is looking for novels that play in this "who are the real bad guys" space, here's a few of my favorites:

"Cloak of Deception" by James Luceno: sets the stage for Phantom Menace, giving a lot more background to the Trade Federation, Palpatine, the old Chancellor, and the political climate leading up to the blockade.

"Darth Plagueis" also by James Luceno: this one follows Sidious (Palpatine) and his master, Plagueis, as they manipulate the events leading up to the Phantom Menace in order to cause the war and eventually establish a Sith Empire.

"Republic Commando" (and sequels) by Karen Traviss: this series goes in-depth into the point of view of the clones, including some of the themes touched on in this discussion like their "enslavement" and relations with their Jedi generals.

"Labrynth of Evil" once again by James Luceno: this novel leads into Revenge of the Sith, with the Jedi beginning to discover some of the Sith machinations behind the war.

The novels for Episodes II and III (by RA Salvatore and Matthew Stover, respectively) are certainly worth reading, as both (particularly Attack of the Clones) contain a lot of material that wasn't in the films.

I also highly recommend the two "Medstar" books as well (by Michael Reaves & Steve Perry), though they basically just do their own little MASH thing and don't touch the Confederate side very much.

I believe all of these are available through Audible, if you don't want to read them. The Star Wars audiobooks have spectacular production values as well, liberally infusing their productions with music and SFX from the films.

 

[Amaror]

Star Wars has always been about allegories for real life wars, with the Original being more or less World War 2 in space and the Endor part of Jedi being Vietnam (at least that's what I've heard). Now it's easy to see how the Prequels are an allegory for the American Civil War, however if you think about it, apart from the few Jedi generals for the Republic and a few Confederate generals, it's the Republic which is evil and the Confederacy which is good, and here's my case:

I am sorry, what?
I never thought that the prequels were about the american civil war.
I think they are more about ancient history, mainly the punic war and Ceasars/augustus climb to power.
Think about it. The Republic is ruled by a SENATE, from one major planet/city(Rome) and is at war with a Trading power(Constantinople), which fields armies made by money (The mercenaries constantinople used to employ).
It started about one planet(Sicily).
In the time of need the senate decides to gives it's chancelor all the power, which is just what the romans did in times of need. They elected a dictator, which was something positive back then.
And then palpatine doesn't give up it's power and becomes emporer(Did i write that wrong? it feels wrong). Which is pretty much what caesar did with his civil war and becoming dictator for livetime. Of course he was directly killed after this, but it's still basically palpatine.

I just don't see the comparison to the american civil war. The repuplic weren't rebels and the federation was no giant imperium like england was back then. Thinking about it.
Aren't the original star wars movies much more like the american civil war, than world war 2? The allied forces in WW 2 were anything but rebels and Nazi Germany wanted to become a giant imperium, but certainly wasn't one yet.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Let's talk about the real enemy here: The Jedi.

An elite military force that is not elected and is accountable to nobody except themselves, yet claims to be the "protectors of democracy".

They take control of the clone army and launch a military attack in the middle of a delicate political situation, starting a war. Their justification? Rescuing two Jedi and a Senator who were caught red-handed spying.

Then they find out that the democratically elected chancellor, who has only been fighting the war that they started, may be knowledgeable about the ways of the force. But since he doesn't subscribe to their religious views (He offered to help Anakin prevent his pregnant wife from dying, the fiend!), they decide to arrest him. And their evidence is the word of one mentally unstable member of their order.

They barge into his office while he's alone and assault him, and are even about to execute him while he's helpless, and are only stopped by Anakin. And to top it off, they attempt to murder him again in full view of the senate!