In the Pursuit of Chaos: The Hardcore Tabletop Obsession with Dice

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Irick

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So I just bought a set of precision d6s. They are clunky, huge things that require special rolling surfaces and truly are inconvenient for a tabletop game. I will probably pick up a set of precision backgammon dice after this, but the question is: why? In tabletop circles dice are front and center in a lot of games. They are a quick way to get a random roll and a lot of superstition, ritual, pomp and thought goes into them. My collection ranges through a wide gambit of designs and materials from iron alloys mined from meteorites to simple polymers.

I've never been one to punish dice or to get too obsessed over the minute differences in face size that can make a die stray from true random, however it is unquestionably an existent drive within the tabletop community. I see people die testing at the table before rolling, I see all sorts of rituals, superstitions and etiquette evolve from table interactions over what are essentially shaped pieces of plastic. This has always fascinated me. In history, dice were and are extremely iconic cultural symbols. A d20 is almost universally accepted as a symbol of tabletop gaming. The piped d6 is nearly universally seen as a symbol of chance.

Games of chance have always had a high place in society. The chivaric code of knights only ever necessitated one type of debt be payed: the debt of honor, or in modern parlance gambling debts. The idea that (G/g)od(s) controlled the outcome of the dice lead to the implements being used widely in games of honor within the nobility. Backgammon, Parcheesi and the Royal Game of Ur where all developed from this notion. Then they transcended class lines.

Games of dice have been used for most of recorded history, evolving from knuckle-bones and being easily transportable and obtainable by the masses. Games and amusements evolved. Iconic phrases like "The die is cast." (Alea iacta est) arose from their prevalence in society. Given this long history and ancient connection, the level of veneration and superstition at the game table almost makes sense.

Empires have risen and fallen by the toss of the dice, fortunes made and lost. Heroes rise and fall. Even in our age of reason we have not moved past the importance of dice. My precision d6s were machined to tolerances that would not be out of place in a rocket lab at NASA. These specifications are legally mandated in order to ensure the fairest dice rolls possible in legal casinos. The amount of physics and chemical knowledge that is required to ensure the perfectly uniform and perfectly weighted center of these dice is truly astounding. When rolled properly these are the fairest dice you will ever probably get your hands on.... but that fairness is realistically only seen in the long run. With the hundreds of rolls that a pair of dice will see in a casino, the statistical spread from a cheep pair of game dice would likely be noticeable. However, keep in mind that casinos operate on margins of probability as thin as 1.4% in these sort of games.

The dice at your game table? Well, if you have more than one set and they are not visibly deformed you will likely never see the statistical bias of your dice. With the frequency that I pick up a new die set, or get lazy and ask to use someone else's the probability of the innate bias of a single dice affecting my long game becomes asymptotic. In fact, compared to a single pair of precision d6s, the mess of polysets that I use will, across the course of play, be /more/ fair. And yet...

Even before I ponied up the big bucks for machined d6s, I owned not one but two pairs of some of the first casting of Gamescience dice. These re dice that forgo the usual tumble polish process of rpg dice from manufacturers like Chessex. The appeal of these dice is that they have, on average, more uniform faces and diameters. This makes them fairer dice. However, there is really no fundamental difference between a toss with game-science dice and a toss with the competition. You will only see a pattern emerge after hundreds of tosses and even then it will be a minimal increase in probability. The idea of a true random die is in practical since extremely, extremely abstract.

And I want it.

I can rationally tell you that these dice make no statistical difference for the small number of rolls we put them though. I can rationally explain it to myself and I, for the most part, accept it. Yet, here I am with a set of precision dice that cost more than ten full polysets, absolutely giddy that they represent something that is mathematically fair. That abstract notion that I will never personally be able to verify gives me a pleasure that seems entirely and utterly unique to tabletop gaming. Even roll20.net made a stupidly huge investment to ensure as true random rolls as possible: http://blog.roll20.net/post/80684919470/data-delve-dev-blog-1-introducing-quantumroll

So, here is a tribute to that undefinable allure. That near universal tabletop quest. Let us raise a tankard of ale (Romulan if you have it) and sing a toast to the pursuit of chaos!

TL;DR:
Lets share dice stories. :3
 

SoreWristed

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Meh, I bought a handful of dice from the jar they had on the counter at the store and never needed any other pair. Some specialised sets make me go 'ooh' but that's about it really.

I will however, always and always, prefer the yellow one. It has the unerring tendency to save my ass when I really depend on it. Once even rolling three natural 20's in a row.

Pseudo random is random enough for me, i don't need mathematically engineered random to make my experience better in some way.
 

DoPo

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Jan 30, 2012
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Irick said:
Lets share dice stories. :3
See, you say that, so I'm not going to talk about my dice (nothing really exciting, anyway). I'm going to talk about a friend's die. More specifically, it was a d20. For some unknown reason, it acted up one session of D&D - it never did that before or after. It's not, like, a super-duper precisely crafted die, it's...well, normal. But that session...well, the majority of rolls were either 20 or a 1. No joke. No confirmation bias - we counted them - over 50% of the rolls resulted in one of the two extremes.

It was quite glorious, actually. We all decided to roll that dice - it made for a really interesting session - a dragon wouldn't be able to to shit while a wizard (with no magic left) would be mercilessly stabbing it with a dagger types of things. The rogue failed to lockpick a really easy door to such an extent the lock got jammed...then he managed to smash into pieces when he got frustrated and kicked it. And so on, and so forth. It almost flipped the game on its head with this.

Never again did it repeat it, though, as I said, nor had it ever occurred before. And we were 5 or 6 people using it, so it's not like a single person was throwing it funny.
 

Tatsuki

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One person in our gaming group does go to excess with his dice rituals. He has two dice bags and a toffee hammer. Any d20 that critically fails gets smashed and added to the second bag. Before every game and each important roll he shakes the second bag at the dice he is using as a warning.

It's exactly as disturbing to watch as it sounds.

I will admit I am guilty of placing all my dice with their highest roll facing up when not in play (though I'm currently playing Fading Suns so the roll to crit is different for each of my skills which is infuriating)
 

Mutant1988

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Honestly... Someone that obsess this much over dice needs medication for their obvious mental issues, however harmless. And this is coming from someone that likes dice and tabletop games (But I rarely get a time to play with either).

Crazy people, the lot of you. CRAZY!

I'm being facetious but really... You're over thinking dice. It's just a rough abstract of chance, not magic. But hey, if you get enjoyment out of it then whatever, go for it. It won't effect me either way.
 

Irick

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SoreWristed said:
Meh, I bought a handful of dice from the jar they had on the counter at the store and never needed any other pair. Some specialised sets make me go 'ooh' but that's about it really.

I will however, always and always, prefer the yellow one. It has the unerring tendency to save my ass when I really depend on it. Once even rolling three natural 20's in a row.
We require pictures of your savior dice :3

I know that most people don't get into a tizzy about dice. It's just such an interesting cultural icon to me. The idea that they can be an expressive part of your gaming experience (cool specialized sets) is interesting too. I know some people pick up sets for specific characters and just enjoy the look of them. It's just interesting to me that we still think about these sort of truly ancient gaming implements. One of our players actually 3D printed out a d20 using an additive ABS (like makerbot), and another CNCed one out of an aluminum block. Then you look at things like the precision d6s that casinos make. It's just kinda cool.

DoPo said:
It was quite glorious, actually. We all decided to roll that dice - it made for a really interesting session - a dragon wouldn't be able to to shit while a wizard (with no magic left) would be mercilessly stabbing it with a dagger types of things. The rogue failed to lockpick a really easy door to such an extent the lock got jammed...then he managed to smash into pieces when he got frustrated and kicked it. And so on, and so forth. It almost flipped the game on its head with this.
Heh, I love old school D&D for that. the d20 is really an interesting choice for gaming dice. It's got that whole even probability curve for each result and such a wide range of results. When you couple it with the d20 system, you've got some truly massive variants between rolls. In 5e especially it surprises me just how effective even low tier monsters and PCs can be. I just love what it can do to surprise you.

A part of me will always love GURPS(3d6)/FATE(4dF) for the statistical bell curve. It makes more sense from a simulationist perspective, but I can not deny my love for those topsy turvy d20 sessions :)

Tatsuki said:
One person in our gaming group does go to excess with his dice rituals. He has two dice bags and a toffee hammer. Any d20 that critically fails gets smashed and added to the second bag. Before every game and each important roll he shakes the second bag at the dice he is using as a warning.

It's exactly as disturbing to watch as it sounds.

I will admit I am guilty of placing all my dice with their highest roll facing up when not in play (though I'm currently playing Fading Suns so the roll to crit is different for each of my skills which is infuriating)
I can speak from experience that intimidating the dice with wanton destruction results in angering the Machine Spirit.

That's a great story though XD I wish my playgroup was as nutty. The worst they have is me, and I just love gaming to the degree that I go absolutely nuts with the study of everything around it. I know setting the dice is a habit of mine too, but that's probably just to keep myself busy.

Mutant1988 said:
Honestly... Someone that obsess this much over dice needs medication for their obvious mental issues, however harmless. And this is coming from someone that likes dice and tabletop games (But I rarely get a time to play with either).

Crazy people, the lot of you. CRAZY!

I'm being facetious but really... You're over thinking dice. It's just a rough abstract of chance, not magic. But hey, if you get enjoyment out of it then whatever, go for it. It won't effect me either way.
Hey! I've been off meds for years mister. I'm proud of the advances I've made and the brilliant mind I've cultivated even with the adversity of a systemically ill prepared educational system and cultural bias against the socially awkward!

Oh shit, got a little bit too real. Uh.. Uh.. abort, abort. DNGR. DNGR WILL ROBINSON!

In all seriousness, yeah, I overthink these things :) Mostly because I love gaming. I love it as an artform. I love it as a pastime. I love it as rules, mechanics, play and culture. I love thinking about the histories, the little social developments, the subcultures. I love everything about the influences it has in the other mediums and studies and I love seeing how other mediums and studies influence it!

But above everything, I love sharing my enjoyment of it with others.

So I hope you keep picking up those dice and giving them a good toss, so you can save a dragon, slay a princess and drop a moon on Chewbacca.

:3
 

SoreWristed

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Irick said:
SoreWristed said:
Meh, I bought a handful of dice from the jar they had on the counter at the store and never needed any other pair. Some specialised sets make me go 'ooh' but that's about it really.

I will however, always and always, prefer the yellow one. It has the unerring tendency to save my ass when I really depend on it. Once even rolling three natural 20's in a row.
We require pictures of your savior dice :3
Stone cold killer in it's natural habitat, click at your own risk => http://www.dumpt.com/img/links.php?file=lcn53b0zk3968e52xe8w.jpg

(tried and failed to embed that picture)
 

Mutant1988

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Irick said:
In all seriousness, yeah, I overthink these things :) Mostly because I love gaming. I love it as an artform. I love it as a pastime. I love it as rules, mechanics, play and culture. I love thinking about the histories, the little social developments, the subcultures. I love everything about the influences it has in the other mediums and studies and I love seeing how other mediums and studies influence it!

But above everything, I love sharing my enjoyment of it with others.
I respect that. Your passion is very inspiring and you have an eloquent way to convey it. Just keep doing what you're doing and don't much mind my lame jokes and faux grumpiness.

Won't be rolling my own dice any time soon. I've found that it's far more practical and cheap to play video games. I just don't have the money, space (Storage and play area) or friends to do any tabletop stuff. My wargame miniatures (Of many brands - I was fickle as a child, which of course ended up with me not having enough to play anything to any real degree) just sit and collect dust.

Maybe some time in the future. I'll keep the dice until then.
 

Irick

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SoreWristed said:
Stone cold killer in it's natural habitat, click at your own risk => http://www.dumpt.com/img/links.php?file=lcn53b0zk3968e52xe8w.jpg
Look at that slick yellow and black beast! You can tell that thing has felled more dragons than the Dovahkiin!

Mutant1988 said:
Won't be rolling my own dice any time soon. I've found that it's far more practical and cheap to play video games. I just don't have the money, space (Storage and play area) or friends to do any tabletop stuff. My wargame miniatures (Of many brands - I was fickle as a child, which of course ended up with me not having enough to play anything to any real degree) just sit and collect dust.

Maybe some time in the future. I'll keep the dice until then.
Until I moved for college it was really, really difficult to get someone to wargame with. There is a local gameshop here that has tables open and hosts tournaments and such, but I lost my Necron army in the move. My pained heart (and college student budget) just can't stand the thought of replacing them. But, funnily enough, I still wargame using a video game :3

Well, kinda a video game. I can wholeheartedly recommend a product called Tabletop Simulator [http://store.steampowered.com/app/286160/]. I love it because it's... really fun to flip the table I mean! An really useful physically based tabletop simulator with workshop supports for a lot of board games and the ability to make your own. It's got the convenience of random online play, a fairly sizable user base, and the ability to tinker with the game.

You also could try roll20.net, though I've never used it for wargaming before. But yeah, I get not having the time or space for tabletop. It's actually one of the reasons I so much prefered pathfinder and now D&D 5e to D&D 4e. Sometimes I like pulling out the hex-mat and minis, but I'd rather not have to clear off the table every time.
 

Mutant1988

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Irick said:
Until I moved for college it was really, really difficult to get someone to wargame with. There is a local gameshop here that has tables open and hosts tournaments and such, but I lost my Necron army in the move. My pained heart (and college student budget) just can't stand the thought of replacing them. But, funnily enough, I still wargame using a video game :3

Well, kinda a video game. I can wholeheartedly recommend a product called Tabletop Simulator [http://store.steampowered.com/app/286160/]. I love it because it's... really fun to flip the table I mean! An really useful physically based tabletop simulator with workshop supports for a lot of board games and the ability to make your own. It's got the convenience of random online play, a fairly sizable user base, and the ability to tinker with the game.

You also could try roll20.net, though I've never used it for wargaming before. But yeah, I get not having the time or space for tabletop. It's actually one of the reasons I so much prefered pathfinder and now D&D 5e to D&D 4e. Sometimes I like pulling out the hex-mat and minis, but I'd rather not have to clear off the table every time.
It's just not my scene any more. If I hang out with a friend, I'd much rather play a video game or watch a movie, or just chat while listening to some good music. Tabletop games require effort I can't muster, nor do I feel that it's necessary to. But yeah, that's just how I am at this point in time. I'll probably return to some kind of table top activity some time in the future. Simply by virtue of absolutely loving miniatures. It's just neat to have something physical, you know? That's also why the whole Tabletop Simulator wouldn't be that interesting to me.
 
Aug 31, 2012
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Can't say I'm quite as enamoured with dice as you, but I do have a favourite pair.

They're both D10's and since they were used for my 2 favourite RPG systems, Cyberpunk 2020 and WHFRP, they've had the most use and I guess I feel the most attachment to them, even though they haven't been used for a good few years I do get a feeling of warm nostalgia when I think about them.

I bought them from Leisure Games in Finchley, sometime in 93-4 to use for CP2020. #1 dice is made of multicoloured plastic chips, all the colours of the rainbow but with a majority of blue and the numbers are painted in yellow. Always goes 1st in a D100 roll. #2 dice is orange and yellow plastic chips, inlaid in orange.

I have 4 other D10 bought at the same time but they don't have such amusing colouring. They're ok, but the other 2 are "my dice".
 

Recusant

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I must regretfully point out that, no matter how well-balanced your dice are, they're never going to give you truly random result; randomness doesn't actually exist. The rolling of a die is nothing more than a series of movements; calculating all the forces and angles involved will tell you exactly what the result will be, every time. Of course, calculating all those forces on the fly is a herculean task, as is even knowing all the forces involved, so they do perfectly well for gaming purposes. You may think that 'herculean' is too weak a description for what seems a functionally impossible task; I'd once have been inclined to agree with you. But this leads into what's probably my most interesting dice story...

His name was Nate. To the best of my knowledge it still is, but I lost contact with him decades ago. He was also a juggler, which gave him finger dexterity that even I, as a lifelong gamer, envied. He had a very unusual method of die rolling, too: he'd take the dice in question, bounce them around in his hand for a bit, then roll them, one at a time, upwards over his middle finger and down onto the table. After a D&D session one day where he'd rolled conspicuously well, I asked him about it, and he told me that he could make the dice come out however he wanted. Naturally, I was dubious, and naturally, he was eager to show off.

I saw it with my own eyes, and I still have trouble believing it. It didn't matter the type, size, weight, or material; he could do it with either hand, even blindfolded. Toward the end, impatient to figure the trick out, I had him roll thirty eight seventeens in a row- using thirty eight different dice. Thinking I'd lulled him into complacency, I then placed a D12 on his outstretched palm. Still blindfolded, and without the slightest twitch of movement in his hands, he paused a moment, smiled, and said "nice try". Imagine for a moment the kind of sensitivity and familiarity that requires. The guy was absolutely uncanny.
 

Irick

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Zykon TheLich said:
I bought them from Leisure Games in Finchley, sometime in 93-4 to use for CP2020. #1 dice is made of multicoloured plastic chips, all the colours of the rainbow but with a majority of blue and the numbers are painted in yellow. Always goes 1st in a D100 roll. #2 dice is orange and yellow plastic chips, inlaid in orange.
CP2020 is a fun system! My first CP system was v3 :3. People tell me it is the worst of the systems, but I did enjoy it. I can definitely see why though, it's not very mirrorshades. My first set of polyhedrals were for Warhammer 40k Dark Heresy. Before that, I had a bunch of D6s for wargaming.

Got a pic of your interesting chip dice?

Recusant said:
I must regretfully point out that, no matter how well-balanced your dice are, they're never going to give you truly random result; randomness doesn't actually exist.
Well, if you want to get technical :3
All dice results are random, though not all are fair random tosses. With a laboratory control test across a surface of a known frictional coefficient and consistent kinetic force researchers have shown that an otherwise fair dice will show a greater probability of landing on the face that was positioned down at the beginning of the roll. E.g. With all other factors controlled for the actual rolling favors the down face.

It's still a random result, but it has a bias.

Recusant said:
I saw it with my own eyes, and I still have trouble believing it. It didn't matter the type, size, weight, or material; he could do it with either hand, even blindfolded. Toward the end, impatient to figure the trick out, I had him roll thirty eight seventeens in a row- using thirty eight different dice. Thinking I'd lulled him into complacency, I then placed a D12 on his outstretched palm. Still blindfolded, and without the slightest twitch of movement in his hands, he paused a moment, smiled, and said "nice try". Imagine for a moment the kind of sensitivity and familiarity that requires. The guy was absolutely uncanny.
The skill that you witnessed is something called die control. It is actually a fairly well researched technique. With short rolls it is possible to control the momentum and direction imparted onto a die. As long as one can set the starting position of the die and you have a consistent rolling surface, it's possible to, for low values of kinetic force, heavily influence the probability of the dice. This is precisely why dice cups and craps tables are used for casino games. If you take a look at either, you will notice that dice cups have heavily textured insides and craps table's back wall has a pyramid texture across it. This is to help prevent someone from throwing with a minimal amount of force in a method that would influence the probability of the dice. It is also why you are required to hit the back wall for craps. (Some people even claim that they can beat the back wall, though it is rather widely debated.)

here is someone doing some simple d6 tricks:
Here they are applying even kinetic force to the two dice and keeping them from randomizing too much in the release, which is allowing for tossing doubles.
It's really impressive, a lot like a magic trick. I've never seen someone do it with a d20 though, you're lucky :)