Inclusion of video game soundtracks in Classic FM Hall of Fame

[harristhenerd]

So in the UK, there's this classical music radio station called Classic FM. Every year, it has a huge poll called the 'Hall of Fame' in which people vote for their 3 favourite pieces of classical music and they publish the top 300 chart.

For the last couple of years, video game soundtracks have been included - specifically music from Final Fantasy and The Elder Scrolls series - after the London Philharmonic Orchestra released two albums of video game music. This year, Final Fantasy was number 3 in the chart, and the Elder Scrolls was number 5.

Lots of people were enthused by this, as it's exciting to see classical music moving in new directions and more people engaging with it as a genre. Others said that this was a very bad thing, that these pieces did not merit their places in the chart, the voting had been rigged by social media campaigns, and that the music wasn't even proper classical music anyway.

What do you think?

 

[Froggy Slayer]

I don't really get why people would actively go out of the way to stop music from video games being included, seeing as other than being attached to a video game it's no different to any other classical music.

 

[Fjartholf]

Interestingly this seems to me like the debate about "Programmmusik" (program music) vs. "Absolute Musik" (absolute music... see German is easy!). To give the gist of it:
Some composers and cultural journalists considered Programmusik less worthwhile than Absolute Musik because it employed music to convey an atmosphere or underline the emotions of a story (famous examples for Programmusik being Wagner and Stravinsky, composing operas and ballets). This was construed as less valuable than pure musical enjoyment (Brahms is a classic example for this kind of music, dodecaphonic music perhaps the most extreme example).

In my opinion that debate was pretty silly in the 19. century and reheating its arguments now is even sillier. I (as most people) consider both forms to be valid ways of expression.
I suspect this gets complicated by the fact that video games aren't widely regarded as art (yet?), and thus anything used in them is considered to be somehow profane.

edit: typo...

 

[harristhenerd]

Interestingly this seems to me like the debate about "Programmmusik" (program music) vs. "Absolute Musik" (absolute music... see German is easy!). To give the gist of it:
Some composers and cultural journalists considered Programmusik less worthwhile than Absolute Musik because it employed music to convey an atmosphere or underline the emotions of a story (famous examples for Programmusik being Wagner and Stravinsky, composing operas and ballets). This was construed as less valuable than pure musical enjoyment (Brahms is a classic example for this kind of music, dodecaphonic music perhaps the most extreme example).

In my opinion that debate was pretty silly in the 19. century and reheating its arguments now is even sillier. I (as most people) consider both forms to be valid ways of expression.
I suspect this gets complicated by the fact that video games aren't widely regarded as art (yet?), and thus anything used in them is considered to be somehow profane.

edit: typo...

Obviously there's a difference between programme and absolute - but you can't separate video game music from other programmatic forms, and stuff like Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition have been in the chart every year. I myself wrote an academic essay in school comparing Pictures with the soundtrack of Super Mario Galaxy.

I think the art point is interesting, though - I wonder whether people would object to its inclusion if they didn't know that it was video game music? I suspect not, but on the other hand, film soundtracks have been in the chart for years too. I find it interesting that people don't want to accept the mix of two different aspects of culture, but I think a lot of it is just elitism.

 

[harristhenerd]

I don't really get why people would actively go out of the way to stop music from video games being included, seeing as other than being attached to a video game it's no different to any other classical music.

In general, I don't think people were annoyed at its inclusion, and those that were formed part of a very small (and rather bigoted) minority. The question seemed to be over how and why they'd achieved the places they had - I don't think anyone would suggest that the Final Fantasy soundtrack was the 3rd best piece of classical music ever written, but a large part of why it landed that place in the Hall of Fame was to do with social media campaigns. Is it a good thing that they're allowed to influence the chart in such a big way?

 

[Scarim Coral]

So have those people actually listen to thoe game soundtracks but in saying so they probably see dismiss it for the tracks to have a place in the Hall of fame for other reasons.

 

[Galletea]

My mum has the Dragonborn song on her phone. She doesn't play games, other than lego and blur. Not sure about the relevance of this info to the topic at hand. I had an idea and then I lost it. I may come back to this.

 

[Pinkamena]

I can see where they're coming from. By including game music on a list like that, it's bound to get a lot of votes from people who likely do not know a lot about classical music, but only vote because they know the song from some game.

 

[Fluffythepoo]

We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it = music.
We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it, it was for a video game =/= music.

I don't understand how music works

 

[harristhenerd]

I can see where they're coming from. By including game music on a list like that, it's bound to get a lot of votes from people who likely do not know a lot about classical music, but only vote because they know the song from some game.

This may be true, but at the same time, it means that people who otherwise wouldn't listen to any classical music actually become engaged with it enough to want to vote in this chart. And maybe they'll become more interested in classical music generally. It certainly doesn't hurt the chances of that happening...

 

[Albino Boo]

I can see where they're coming from. By including game music on a list like that, it's bound to get a lot of votes from people who likely do not know a lot about classical music, but only vote because they know the song from some game.

This may be true, but at the same time, it means that people who otherwise wouldn't listen to any classical music actually become engaged with it enough to want to vote in this chart. And maybe they'll become more interested in classical music generally. It certainly doesn't hurt the chances of that happening...

The problem is with that argument is that its just a vote on website, you don't have to listen to anything. I don't listen to Classic FM because its a bit middle of the road for me but I can tell my Haydn from my Handle. I doubt many of those voting for the game soundtracks can. I'm not sure that the average visitor to the escapist would be that happy about two zynga games being in the top 10 games of the year.

 

[Total LOLige]

I can see where they're coming from. By including game music on a list like that, it's bound to get a lot of votes from people who likely do not know a lot about classical music, but only vote because they know the song from some game.

Objection! I've actually noticed a trend on this site that quite a lot of users that post video game sound tracks also post classical music in other threads. I do see where you're coming from though.

At the end of the day it's still music and it deserves to be there. I'm sure music that was written for stage productions is on there and no one is complaining about that(maybe they are I don't know).

 

[Not Lord Atkin]

My mum has the Dragonborn song on her phone. She doesn't play games, other than lego and blur. Not sure about the relevance of this info to the topic at hand. I had an idea and then I lost it. I may come back to this.

Oh yes, I can see the relevance in that. It means that the music is no different from any other kind of music just because it was originally attached to a game.


My mom actively hates videogames as a matter of principle but when I let her listen to Suicide Mission from Mass Effect 2, she would just sit there with my headphones on, her mouth agape and her eyes wide open. I didn't tell her it was a game soundtrack beforehand, obviously. She would dismiss it immediately as something not worth her time. When I did tell her, she started praising the fuck out of my headphones.

It's easy to dismiss the arguments of the people who claim that videogame music "is not proper classical music" as simple ignorant hate talk based on their irrational fear of the medium. Especially with the kind of experience I have with my mom. But I don't know. Perhaps they're coming from somewhere. That would depend on their perception of classical music. As in "it's not classical if it's not old enough". I guess it depends on whether the same people approve of film music and other orchestral music composed today (as opposed to 100 and more years ago).

 

[tahrey]

I opt to bypass this whole discussion, and introduce my grandmother as the litmus test for all this cafoodle.

She likes a moderately narrow range of music ... some trad-style country, some light pop stuff like Abba, showtunes, and the classics (oh and a bit of Chas and Dave if she's feeling naughty). She hasn't the slightest interest, or probably the ability to learn to operate a CD player, so she has me make cassettes she can play on her little ghetto blaster and somewhat crusty old walkman. Her eyes aren't so good any more either, so although I do put track listings on, she can only really see the spine labels.

When it came to the classics tapes, I had some space left over, enough for one or two additional pieces per side of C90, but not so much that justified dropping to a single tape or putting a whole side of something different. So I filled it out, with a few symphonic and/or thematically similar electronic instrumental pieces off videogames, anime and cartoons (the instrument sounds are different, but the composition is such that it seems more like Phillipe Glass than Daft Punk), inserted at random points within the programme.

She can't tell the difference, as far as I know. That, or she realises it's something different to the norm, but still likes it enough and finds it fits the bill suitably to not bug me about it or ask what's going on (...like she did when Lady Gaga popped up on a tape of Tony Bennett duets).

Works for me. Nobuo Uematsu, take your place on the podium. Invite your buddies Hisaishi, Saban and Levy along too. They might not be getting any gongs this year, but I'm sure they'll appreciate the show and their presence itself will be appreciated, and who knows, they might sneak in somewhere in the mid 200s next year if they release and promote a suitable album. And in any case, you've got the Grandma seal of approval.

There have always been people who have tried to claim that "classical" only applies to "old" music, and nothing past a certain point counts (actually if we're going to get TRULY pedantic, "classical" is but one era of chamber/symphonic/etc music, alongside Baroque, Romantic etc, even though it gets used as a catch-all for that vague non-pop, traditional-instrument, usually-instrumental kingdom of musical lifeforms) ... and by whose standards nothing since the invention of the phonograph and thus the instigation of the long slow decay of sheet music and Going To The Music Hall REALLY counts. So none of the aforementioned Mr Glass, no John Williams, no living or recently deceased composers at all.

These people are wankers of the highest order. A good composer in a particular style is, and always will be such, and if music is supposed to be timeless then it's hypocritical to try and gain an exception just because you disagree with which time it was written in, or indeed for what purpose (why is the whim of a king and his court superior to that of a million people who have opted to collectively partake of the same interactive narrative and it's musical score?). You may as well claim a chiptune crafted for a certain computer or console after its flush of popularity has waned is false, untrue and unworthy, never mind I have favourites amongst my own computing family written 20 years apart from each other on the same platform. I'd like to think that if either of those composers in question had been let loose on a string quartet in another era (which is pretty much a SID chip, or maybe a gameboy PSG, by our modern standards, in terms of range, polyphony, and available effects), they would have come up with something that those selfsame wankers would go completely crazy for... so long as it was written prior to about 1875.

And there will also be passing fads, of which this surge in popularity is arguably one (I do sometimes have Classic on, mainly to fall asleep to, but I can't see there being a huge slice on the venn diagram where the circles of "avid gamer" and "Classic FM listener" intersect). It will fade, but not entirely, and the pieces in question will find their true, fair level inamongst the other works of history, which they will themselves gradually become.

Consider this: Final Fantasy 6 turns 20 years old in the coming months. Then it will turn 40, and 60, and 100 ... The game may become something of a footnote, an early classic of the genre to be occasionally revisited in the way that Jane Austen novels are, with some people being particular fans but most people only really knowing OF them (like myself). There's only so much time in the average life. But the music itself will live on, in recordings and indeed as notes on sheets of paper, and has a chance to spread more pervasively. The good, popular works will flourish and establish themselves... the dull, samey ones will fade into the background, and maybe earn the occasional curious tinkle on a futuristic 22nd century instrument by someone scrolling through the vast archives in search of something new to play, but will otherwise be forgotten...

Somehow I think at least a couple of our current favourites will hold their own?

 

[Hero in a half shell]

We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it = music.
We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it, it was for a video game =/= music.

I don't understand how music works

Be gone you heathen. Clearly you're listening to the wrong noises!

 

[e033x]

We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it = music.
We got a symphony and recorded it, people like it, it was for a video game =/= music.

I don't understand how music works

I think you unintentionally hit the nail here. Alot of people equate film- and as an extent of that, game music to the classical (or most likely the romantic) reportoire. And while most modern film and game music is rooted in the late romantic era, courtesey of John Williams, there is a vital difference: You have nowhere the depth and processing of the themes, thought-through instrumentation and so on in film and game music. It's pretty often structured the same way as a pop song, with 3-5 minutes of a cool theme, some dynamic progress, maybe even a secondary theme, if you're lucky. Take the skyrim theme, for example. I don't know if it was skyrim or some other referred to in the OP, but all TES themes are small variations on the same theme for 1.5 to 3 minutes.

In my opinion, they try to hard at being catchy and cool all the time, so they can earn alot of money on selling the soundtrack on disk afterwards. You don't get the opportunity to totally splurge over the climax, like of the 4th mvt. of Brahms' 1st. symphony, which has 10 minutes of subtle build-up before it, because it has no discernable climax, it is just cool and epic and mighty all the time.

Another point is that multimediamusic most of the time just treads in old tracks, and can not, as such, be considered a part of the evolution of the "classical" genre at this time. Same reason architects don't design as they did 50 years ago (thank FSM, modernism in architecture is boring).

That is a few reasons why alot of people, me included, don't count such music as classical. But no disrespect, making music to fit another media is no easy task either. Film music, while in a film, (game music in games) can stir as much as alot of classical music, because you get the combined hit of the visuals, the narrative and the music at the same time, making a product greater than the sum of it's parts. IF done correctly.


EDIT:

These people need to be reminded that most of the great overtures and operas are nothing more than commissioned soundtracks themselves.

Of course they can argue about that all they want, but a hundred years doesn't change that they fill the exact same spot in culture that the Dragonborn's Song occupies now, the century or two of intervening time just lets them pretend it doesn't and be incredibly snobbish about it.

Wagner is spinning so hard in is grave, we could hook him up to a generator and power a mid-size country with it.

 

[Risingblade]

There was a thread about this, the people who opposed it on that site were snobs

 

[fix-the-spade]

Others said that this was a very bad thing, that these pieces did not merit their places in the chart, the voting had been rigged by social media campaigns, and that the music wasn't even proper classical music anyway.

These people need to be reminded that most of the great overtures and operas are nothing more than commissioned soundtracks themselves.

Of course they can argue about that all they want, but a hundred years doesn't change that they fill the exact same spot in culture that the Dragonborn's Song occupies now, the century or two of intervening time just lets them pretend it doesn't and be incredibly snobbish about it.

Also, having heard an orchestra abruptly break into Green Hill Zone and the reactions of utter glee from people who both did and didn't know what it was, I think soundtrack music has as much a place in the Halls of Classical Fame as anything else.

 

[Albino Boo]

These people need to be reminded that most of the great overtures and operas are nothing more than commissioned soundtracks themselves.

Of course they can argue about that all they want, but a hundred years doesn't change that they fill the exact same spot in culture that the Dragonborn's Song occupies now, the century or two of intervening time just lets them pretend it doesn't and be incredibly snobbish about it.

Also, having heard an orchestra abruptly break into Green Hill Zone and the reactions of utter glee from people who both did and didn't know what it was, I think soundtrack music has as much a place in the Halls of Classical Fame as anything else.

You could say that about 16th and 17th century music but the 19th century composers were writing for paid public performance. Verdi wrote all but Aida on a commercial basis, just like films and the modern pop music industry. The position that game soundtracks hold is like the film music of Korngold, popular at the time but entirely forgotten with the decline in popularity of films they appeared in.

 

[Tom_green_day]

I myself voted, and will let you know that it wasn't only Elder Scrolls and Final Fantasy. I voted for Elder Scrolls, Fallout and Mass Effect soundtracks, which evidently didn't win.
To people saying that these are just as legitimate as classical music for inclusion... Well, Classical FM is for classical music, hence the name. I don't consider soundtrack music classical, as classical is a specific genre, and thus has features that are included, that aren't in the soundtrack. Also, classical is not the same as romantic or baroque.