Insight into what "objectification" is & how to fix it

[Cognisant]

After watching several videos by Jim Sterling and the Extra Credits crew I got to thinking about this issue because something didn't quite sit with me, the exact reason why mostly naked women in games are offensive, after all as anyone who has been a teenage boy knows gossip magazines have just as much, if not more fap material than your average gaming publication. So the exposure of skin isn't important, nor are the unrealistic figures (again gossip magazines are full of those, even if they're unrealistic in different ways) instead what I've figured out is that the actual problem in games is with how these female characters are presented, specifically the lack of context.

I'll use the Hitman series as my example (who doesn't love that bald bastard?) and of course there's the fairly recent trailer with the nuns in fetish outfits, now don't misunderstand me, I'm not against fetish apparel, some of it I quite like, but the way in which these characters were presented in this trailer was internally inconsistent. They have disguises then inexplicably remove them, the clothing (or lack of) underneath being without explanation, and the problem with this for BOTH men and women is that it broke the suspension of disbelief, I'm a fan of the Hitman series and I've seen some pretty jaw-dropping outfits in it, but in every other situation there was a reason for it, even the incredible angel waitress outfits from "Hitman: Blood Money" made sense because y'know, one can assume they're getting paid for this, it's derogatory but hey if someone was willing to pay to see my body I'd quit my retail job in a heartbeat

But the outfits in the trailer were inexplicable and that makes it more than simply derogatory to the subject wearing it, the lack of context makes it an attack on womanhood itself because the implicit message is (intended or not) that they're dressed like that simply because they're women, and sure there's some chicks out there who just want attention, really who doesn't like a little attention, but when women watch this trailer they no doubt feel pressured in some subtle way to conform to the image of womanhood presented to them and that upsets them, in exactly the same way Twilight upsets us.

Imagine if the games industry was full of Twilight and Justin Bieber, can you see it? The horror, oh my godlessness the horror.

But fear not chaps we can fix this, in fact you'll be surprised by just how easily it can be fixed, y'see the problem is merely a lack of context, we can still have our gorgeous female characters in fatally distracting outfits (damn you Kasumi players, always ruining my concentration) but there needs to be a reason for it, an explanation, an excuse. If the aforementioned nuns had a reason to be wearing those outfits, either to send some kind of ironic message, because they really do want the attention, or it's some tactical refuge in absurdity thing, then even though it may still be cringe inducingly derogatory it won't be an attack on the respectability of womanhood itself.

Furthermore this is advantageous for both men & women, I mean even as a fan watching this trailer was derogatory for me, it made me wonder who Edios thinks I am, sure I'm a healthy young adult male who knows what he likes and isn't the least be apologetic for liking it, but when smut is presented to me as an obvious attempt to manipulate me, well Edios I'm sorry but by not respecting me you've lost my respect and I have no intent to buy this game because, if the trailer is anything to go by, playing is going to leave me feeling a little soiled. But the real tragedy of this is the wasted potential of these characters, the mere addition of one commenting to another about having to wear these outfits would hint at a backstory, if the comment was negative I'd realise that beneath the visage these aren't abnormal women and I'd wonder what is making them dress like this, likewise if it was positive I'd think "well that's abnormal" and be interested in what makes these women tick.

Just two or three seconds would have made a world of difference.

As for the violence, well if it was men getting bashed we wouldn't even notice, and I don't think women should be presented as inherently weaker or less durable than men, indeed I like to think I'm enough of a man not to be intimidated by women that are tougher than me, y'know able to take a punch to the face and keep fighting, the only problem with the violence I saw was that 47 took on all of them by himself, but then again this is 47 we're talking about, if it was the same number of male agents sent to kill him I'd expect exactly the same result.

Heck why not include a boob punch? I hear that hurts and I don't see how it would be any less funny than a guy getting kicked in the balls.

Tangent: I'd like to see a game where the protagonist gets kicked in the balls and the screen goes fuzzy and shakes for a minute or so while the controller vibrates in a throbbing rhythm, so no matter the gender of the player they know exactly how that feels.

If you agree with what I've said please spread it around, eventually it should reach the right ears and with any luck this will help the industry overcome this issue, and finally if you want to hear more from me or message me I can be found at the blackest hive of scum and villianry that is INTPforum.com

 

[Metalix]

How to solve objectivication(fixed): Force androgyny upon the entire human species.

 

[MammothBlade]

This is a non-issue, stop being so touchy about a bit of flesh.

 

[MammothBlade]

This is a non-issue, stop being so touchy about a bit of flesh.

Precisely, but tell that to Jim Sterling. He has a soap box he gets on often to prove how intolerant he is to other view points. He doesn't seem to believe in justified disagreements on various topics he's passionate about. If you're an artist or video game designer who doesn't agree with him on some topic 100%, he will boycott the crap out of you.

Hey, I'm not going to single out Jim Sterling for this. It seems endemic to game criticism these days. Scream about sexism, etc, whilst glorifying game violence at the same time. There is sexism in gaming, no doubt about that, but most of it is at the hands of a certain segment of gamers rather than the industry. It's chasing the wrong goose entirely.

 

[briankoontz]

Objectification and sexism are completely separate issues.

People who objectify women typically objectify men as well. Body conscious women who are obsessed with their own body typically are obsessed with men's bodies as well. So many men these days sculpt their bodies because society in general (and they themselves) objectify everything, not just women.

Objectification is about the surface, the shallow, ignoring or disregarding deep reality, such as emotions and complex interactions. Objectification is the ultimate in simplification, perfect for lazy, useless people who just can't be bothered with thought.

For example, superhero comic books objectify everything - women's bodies, men's bodies, interactions between people (reducing everything to good and evil). The excuse given is that the audience wants this, that these bodies are the idealizations of our desires. That's quite an insult and it's remarkable that so few of us ever object.

 

[Frotality]

well thats the solution to every problem in every story and piece of entertainment really; everything needs to seem like it belongs, like it has a reason. tits and sex are all well and good in game of thrones because its about opulent and entitled nobility who are used to having everything and never developed any kind of moral barriers, driving them to do horrid things to keep and increase their power. ridiculous female attire worked in hitman for much the same reason; you were sent to the parties and mansions of the rich and corrupt who paid out the ass to have poor girls freezing to death in sexy santa outfits. the funny thing is; the reason they do it from a narrative standpoint is the same reason we do it from a cultural standpoint. its a perfect, recursive reasoning that is brilliantly simple and easy to use, yet somehow a lot of games cant even put forth the effort to do that.

"people love to objectify, so we need to do it in our game.... so how about the ingame reason is that people love to objectify, and do it in their lives." i dont know whats so hard about that.

 

[Bad Jim]

This is a non-issue, stop being so touchy about a bit of flesh.

Precisely, but tell that to Jim Sterling. He has a soap box he gets on often to prove how intolerant he is to other view points. He doesn't seem to believe in justified disagreements on various topics he's passionate about. If you're an artist or video game designer who doesn't agree with him on some topic 100%, he will boycott the crap out of you.

The fun part is when you have Lisa Foiles doing a "top 5 hot sexy blue chicks" the same week.

 

[ninjaRiv]

This is a non-issue, stop being so touchy about a bit of flesh.

Precisely, but tell that to Jim Sterling. He has a soap box he gets on often to prove how intolerant he is to other view points. He doesn't seem to believe in justified disagreements on various topics he's passionate about. If you're an artist or video game designer who doesn't agree with him on some topic 100%, he will boycott the crap out of you.

Pretty sure Jim Sterling, the one presented on Jimquisition and, I think, Twitter, is just an exaggerated character. Also he has admitted to mistakes before. But if he wants to boycott stuff because he disagrees, more power to him. But I haven't seen any instances that you've mentioned so I can't comment any more than that.

 

[Lightknight]

I'm not so sure a solution needs to be found so much as available alternatives need to be made available. People who dislike horror movies can't justifiably demand that the horror movies contain less "horror" to appeal to them. They understand that they aren't the target market and then go to other movie genres. The problem is that, while movies can scaled up or down where production costs are concerned according to the size of the niche market they're facing, video games have a steep initial cost of entry. Usually in the form of development expertise and basic opportunity costs (such as working on a larger or different project that could be more lucrative). Large companies won't typically bother with small niche markets either and I've already established that the overall actual proportion of women (as opposed to men) who own either the 360 or ps3 as their primary console is around 18% even if you're being generous and assuming that women own the same proportion of consoles per person that the male demographic does (which is unlikely but I have no data showing that exact number so I'll remain generous at 18%). The 53%males/47%females is taking into account iOS systems, the Wii, and all kinds of other devices that aren't typically the target of the AAA publishers. Interestingly enough, women make up a slightly higher ratio of people who own the Wii as their primary console than men.

<a href=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.407898-Jimquisition-Objectification-And-Men?page=21#17051889>This link shows the sources and work done to arrive at those numbers.

When the number of women who comprise your target market is less than 1/5th of that market then the actual demand for games that cater to them is less and companies who cater to them in a way that is to the disadvantage of the rest of the market (whether real or percieved disadvantage) will harm their sales. In a capitalist society it benefits people to specialize in appropriate markets and if you have enough money, you want to be catering to the 80 rather than the 20% because if you reach even 1/4th of that market then it'd be like reaching 100% of the female demographic. If you reached as much as half of the female demographic then you'd only be talking 1/8th of the male demographic. This is a clear and present disparity.

In any event, it's an important question to try and figure out exactly what objectification means. If a character is pursuing a romantic relationship with another character than the objectification that ensues is a natural progression of that basic human nature. The person they're pursuing is then someone to be won. They are objectified purely by being wanted and that's not inherently evil. I can promise you that if men had a feature that was as commonly desireable as breasts, legs, ass, and such on women and as easily exaggeratable, then male characters would have those features. As is, you can't exactly portray a giant penis in today's market so all they have is muscle (whether toned or bulked) and rugged/handsome looks. This is no different from romantic movies geared towards women. So I posit that men are not objectified in the same way as women solely because of that reasoning. If having a giant right-arm made us more attractive and successful as mates than you can damn well bet that Kratos would have one giant-ass crab claw for a right-arm. When people say that men are objectified too they're missing the point. Men are objectified too but there's no way to do it to the same degree that women are or even as obviously. An interesting thing for people to ask themselves is if they'd claim that women who dress in skimpy clothing or who get boob jobs are themselves objectifying women and if it's bad for them to do so. If they answer yes, it is bad and they are objectifying women and that's bad then they're being consistent in their argument against video games. If they answer no, that women have a right to do that, then they're being inconsistent. Women do dress and alter their bodies to emphasize the same features game developers do. There's a reason for it and it's more primal than you may think. The next question to ask yourself would be what proportions are ok for women? How much skin is ok to be shown? Then be a little ashamed for thinking that any one person has a right to set those standards.

In the meantime, I expect the indie crowd to cater to these demographics.

What I think most of us are against is really more so the roles that women are cast in. Poorly made stereotypes of dumb or sex-crazed bimbos who can't so much as squeeze a big scary ol' gun's trigger when the crap hits the fan. There's no reason not to have legitimate female characters even if they're wearing booty shorts. But it's wrong to have weak characters regardless of their poor clothing choices.

 

[Muspelheim]

I am so tired of this discussion about this so called "issue", so just pull up a chair and let me tell you how tired I am for about three pages. It's genes, you know, and that makes it alright, but the radical feminists wants to take even that away from us, to enforce their PC agenda where...

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100822162808/spongebob/images/6/6d/Two_very_boring_minutes_later.jpg

...And that is why it's a non issue, and people who feel offended are a dumb. Did I mention I'm so tired of this? Because I am. Why are we talking about this?

...

(Well, that is how it usually goes whenever this subject is brought up, fun and games aside...)

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Most see it as flesh and titillation....not connected to real woman/men. Now i agree some of the clothes/armour they have for woman characters is stupid and not needed. But this is not an issue, it comes under fantasy not reality. Other wise humanity would die cos woman would see men as muscle bound guys and men would see woman as sexy, thin with huge breasts. This is not the case. Lara in the new game was not portrayed sexually, but as a woman in a shitty situation. Movies, books and games all have fantasy elements, but no one has gone mental over movies and books.....just games. You know what, complain about porn and porn magazines and prostitution....those are what make woman look like sex objects...you know, real woman. After you deal with those, then look at games and the "unreal fake pixal woman" they portray.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

There is already context in the games. But as expected from outsiders, they don't care for context as long they get to ***** about things they didn't play.


Unreal huh? what a joke.

 

[Darken12]

As always, and as I continue to repeat over and over, the solution to most of the game industry's problems is diversity. People complain that games are boring, bland, etc., etc.? Diversity. Objectification everywhere? Diversity. The more objectified men and non-objectified women we see, the more acceptable it is for the industry to put out objectified women and non-objectified men, because such releases will be done within a context of balance between objectification and non-objectification, and within those categories, a balance of genders between them.

It's the only solution that keeps people who don't see this as an issue happy (because they are still being given what they prefer to purchase) while giving everyone else what they want to see as well.

Of course, fostering diversity in an economic recession, where games sell 5 million copies are still considered failures, is quite difficult.

 

[nonhoration]

An interesting thing for people to ask themselves is if they'd claim that women who dress in skimpy clothing or who get boob jobs are themselves objectifying women and if it's bad for them to do so. If they answer yes, it is bad and they are objectifying women and that's bad then they're being consistent in their argument against video games. If they answer no, that women have a right to do that, then they're being inconsistent. Women do dress and alter their bodies to emphasize the same features game developers do.

The difference is that real women are actual human beings and video game women are characters who have been designed by another person. Character design is political because imaginary women can't make choices about what they do with their bodies. Characters are designed for a specific effect and for specific reasons by people working in the industry, and those people are overwhelmingly men targeting men.

 

[sweetylnumb]

When they have male warriors in bunny costumes or man kinies with their massive penis's bulging out

And they have fat, ugly, plain female charecters rather than an endless parade of supermodels

I'll call this "non problem" solved.

 

[Westaway]

We live in a late capitalist society, anything and everything will be used for marketing. Complaining about objectification in America is like complaining about following the Qu'ran in Saudi Arabia.