"Internalizing the Oppression"

[Paragon Fury]

So I got called out with the title the other day during a discussion on another board resulting from the article on the Escapist (Link [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.880084-Female-Game-Characters-Photoshopped-to-Average-American-Proportions]) about body images.

The short version of the discussion? "You're a terrible, troubled person for accepting and internalizing society's expectations of people."

Longer version:

So during the debate on the mentioned images, it came up that I didn't disagree with the original interpretations of the characters as being fairly reasonable and not out there by that much; though I am willing to admit that MAYBE the busts on them are a bit too big for the average woman. It went back and forth for a bit until it got to this;

"Yeah, but they're still completely unrealistic."

(Me) "No they're not. If we're excluding the obviously stylized ones like the Gerudo, most of these are perfectly obtainable and healthy for real women and women would actually be doing themselves a favor by trying to look more like them. They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet. Just because you don't want to put in the barest goddamn effort to take care of yourself and look decent doesn't mean you get to ***** about the expectations of society when any actual though on the standards would show they're not completely arbitrary and aren't unrealistic, or at least within the realm of possibility.

I mean, if you don't WANT to, thats fine. Its your choice and we have to respect that. But just because you choose NOT to try, or got unlucky and can't conform, does not make society wrong, or the "standard" any less desirable. I can't meet the standard of attractive for men basically at all - I don't exercise enough, and even if I did my face is pretty messed up from almost a decade of acne and pimples wrecking it. But I don't ***** at the system for not making the standard more like me - I understand that I got unlucky with my face, and that I don't feel like putting in the effort to look better, so I'm not going to go ripping the system and trying to force it to include me."

Then the line from above, and the conversation was over. Maybe it's just me; but I don't think accepting the standards of society when they're not actually unreasonable. Or maybe I'm just weird in that I'm able to tell the difference between something OBVIOUSLY unrealistic like say:

Spoiler

And something merely idealistic or very high-end:

Spoiler

 

[Silvanus]

Part of the issue, I think, is that these "idealistic or very high-end" body types are pretty ubiquitous for women in media, and the same standard is not applied to men. I don't think many people would complain if "ideal" body types turned up once in a while in media-- it's that they're everywhere, and far more common than the average, and that that's true only for one sex.

 

[Phasmal]

Hahahah I saw that thread explode, it was rather funny.

I think the problem is that especially with animation and games the images of women can become so skewed that `normal` starts to look `fat`. I remember seeing something recently with someone calling a changed image of a disney princess `obese` because her waist was finally thicker than her neck. It's darn silly.

Also it seems like images of bigger women incite stupidity in comments.

EDIT: Besides, most of the body image messages presented for women in the media are not exactly healthy ideals.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Part of the issue, I think, is that these "idealistic or very high-end" body types are pretty ubiquitous for women in media, and the same standard is not applied to men. I don't think many people would complain if "ideal" body types turned up once in a while in media-- it's that they're everywhere, and far more common than the average, and that that's true only for one sex.

This is actually becoming the case, though, as noted by the huge rise in male cases of eating disorders in recent years. That's not to say that it's not as common as it is with women, or that this problem with idealized body type is as prevalent as it is with women, but it is a rising concern now, especially for those of us in the field of Psychology.

I will say, on topic, though, that after reading the article, most of those pictures that were photoshopped weren't that ridiculously idealistic and while noticeable of a shop, it wasn't that big a shift in a lot of cases.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Hahahah I saw that thread explode, it was rather funny.

I think the problem is that especially with animation and games the images of women can become so skewed that `normal` starts to look `fat`. I remember seeing something recently with someone calling a changed image of a disney princess `obese` because her waist was finally thicker than her neck. It's darn silly.

Also it seems like images of bigger women incite stupidity in comments.

EDIT: Besides, most of the body image messages presented for women in the media are not exactly healthy ideals.

Well there is a difference between realist normal, average, and unrealistic animation and video game proportions. The problem is that there is also a difference between what is presented as average, what is actually average, and what's healthy. A lot of groups that press for awareness of eating disorders also try to pull "fat acceptance" and "thin shaming". Rather than really working to make people seek healthy lifestyles. *sigh*

Of course we have a culture that is thin obsessed while at the same time being consumerist to the point of obesity being a relatively common thing as opposed to the "ideal" which is far too thin.

But the whole process of demoniziation that goes on between people who are pro "fat shaming" versus people who are pro "fat acceptance" really is absurd.

 

[Twintix]

Ugh, idiots have always existed; The Internet just gives them more of a platform to stand on.

(ALSO, GENERAL "YOU" USAGE INCOMING, NOT TARGETING ANYBODY!)

Why aren't females in video games realistic? Gee, I dunno, because they are not real? Because they don't exist? Because they are not meant to represent reality in any way, shape or form? The females they altered didn't even have all that insane proportions to begin with, and even the ones that do, I consider more of an art-style thing rather than an accurate representation of reality. And regarding Nabooru; I don't know about you, but I have never, ever heard anyone praise a Zelda game for being "realistic".

If you look at a video game and say "Yeah, that's what reality looks like.", if you base your world view on what you see in a game, then I think you need to get your priorities straight.

The way I see it, it's not so much what the character looks like that can be an issue, but how the character is treated otherwise. Objectification and impossible body shapes can be mutually exclusive, and the sooner people realize this, the better.

Really, that whole little project just bothers me. You know, men in video games also have "unrealistic" proportions, but you don't hear anybody complain about them. Do these people think that men are incapable of having eating disorders? Just because it might not be as common doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. One of my cousins had bulimia in secondary school, and he even wrote an article in one of the newspapers talking about it. He was, at first, afraid of talking to anybody about it, even while looking for help, because all the eating disorder ads were targeted at females, and only females. They were seen as a woman's disease. Where's the support for the men suffering from eating disorders?

On the topic of the title, as soon as anybody uses the word "oppression" and are not talking about countries where oppression is far more common and far more serious, I stop listening.

Look, we as a society should always strive to improve. We still have problems, even if they might not be as big as they were 50 years ago, and some problems that maybe didn't even exist back then. We should always be willing to do better.

But stylised characters in video games is probably not one of those problems.

 

[Dizchu]

I think when it comes to video games, female characters often have more "modest" proportions than male characters. I mean when you look at the characters that the original image set featured, they all seem to be fairly realistic. Maybe too realistic as they aren't allowed the same amount of exaggeration that male characters usually do, but that's not the point that was raised.

I think what it mostly boils down to is that overweight women are generally not as physically active as video game characters. Actually, I think few women of ANY size are. What the original experiment failed to keep in mind is that the "average" American woman lives a sedentary life and consumes fast food, just like the average American male.

This is substituting one form of body shaming for another. I don't think many women would respond too kindly to being told that they are "unrealistic". Also the idea that large breasts are inherently sexual influences the perception of real life women. So when one has a knee-jerk reaction to a female character's bust size, it makes assumptions about women in the real world with large busts. When it comes to the over-sexualisation of women in media, I think it has less to do with proportions and more to do with how they are presented.

 

[Bat Vader]

Never understood the point of listening to society. That's all fine and dandy if women want to be skinny but they should be skinny because they want to be. Not because society portrays them that way. If women want to be on the heavier side that's cool too.

Personally I don't find skinny women attractive at all. I prefer women who are on the chubbier side. Not really heavy but curvy or chubby. A bit NSFW links.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Sylveria]

(Me) "No they're not. If we're excluding the obviously stylized ones like the Gerudo, most of these are perfectly obtainable and healthy for real women and women would actually be doing themselves a favor by trying to look more like them. They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet.

And you'd need the surgeon to provide the massive tits of course. I hear that being very slim and having massive tits without medical intervention is pretty tricky, because when you burn fat, you burn all fat. Including tits.

I think I'd need to know what you mean by 'mild exercise and a proper diet' along with a picture of the body type you think is achievable using those methods in order to weigh up whether your statements were unreasonable.

I dare say Helena there is a pretty good example. She has a curve to her, she's not crazy thin, her boobs are not ridiculously over sized for her height and shape. She's fit and athletic. Actually, considering some of the shit she can pull off in-game, she's probably nowhere near the physicality she would need to be.

What 'Body activists' need to understand is we aren't all created equal, some of us are gonna be short and stout, some of us are gonna be tall and lanky, and some of us are gonna hit that ideal. The fact everyone doesn't find a meaty body attractive is not some massive flaw of society as there's some people who are super in to that. Of course, then you have these people getting all butthurt that people now find bigger women attractive because after decades of saying "Im chubby and sexy and you need to see that" now that people are finally seeing it, they're crying "OMG stop objectifying thick women!!!!! misogyny!". So, they got what the wanted and just found something else to be miserable and complain about.

 

[Bat Vader]

(Me) "No they're not. If we're excluding the obviously stylized ones like the Gerudo, most of these are perfectly obtainable and healthy for real women and women would actually be doing themselves a favor by trying to look more like them. They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet.

And you'd need the surgeon to provide the massive tits of course. I hear that being very slim and having massive tits without medical intervention is pretty tricky, because when you burn fat, you burn all fat. Including tits.

I think I'd need to know what you mean by 'mild exercise and a proper diet' along with a picture of the body type you think is achievable using those methods in order to weigh up whether your statements were unreasonable.

I dare say Helena there is a pretty good example. She has a curve to her, she's not crazy thin, her boobs are not ridiculously over sized for her height and shape. She's fit and athletic. Actually, considering some of the shit she can pull off in-game, she's probably nowhere near the physicality she would need to be.

What 'Body activists' need to understand is we aren't all created equal, some of us are gonna be short and stout, some of us are gonna be tall and lanky, and some of us are gonna hit that ideal. The fact everyone doesn't find a meaty body attractive is not some massive flaw of society as there's some people who are super in to that. Of course, then you have these people getting all butthurt that people now find bigger women attractive because after decades of saying "Im chubby and sexy and you need to see that" now that people are finally seeing it, they're crying "OMG stop objectifying thick women!!!!! misogyny!". So, they got what the wanted and just found something else to be miserable and complain about.

Don't forget the people that get butthurt because they feel someone finding chubbier people attractive causes unhealthy lifestyle choices for the people to remain chubby. I see it a lot on Deviant Art.

 

[Amaror]

And you'd need the surgeon to provide the massive tits of course. I hear that being very slim and having massive tits without medical intervention is pretty tricky, because when you burn fat, you burn all fat. Including tits.

I think I'd need to know what you mean by 'mild exercise and a proper diet' along with a picture of the body type you think is achievable using those methods in order to weigh up whether your statements were unreasonable.

Not really. Women with more fat will generally have more fat in their breasts, that just makes sense, but that doesn't mean that only bigger women can have naturally bigger breasts. Were your gained fat is stored is pretty much entirely down to genetics, that's the case for everyone.
So saying that it's basically impossible to have larger breasts with a skinnier body is just wrong. I know a few women that are really thin, yet have quite large breasts, and i also know quite a few women that are larger, yet have pretty small breasts regardless.
It is entirely down to genetics. Though i aggree that it's not something that should be idiolized, as it is down to genetics and there's not really anything anyone can do to change that.

But i also aggree with the OP. Of course Videogame women don't portray the standart of women, just as videogame men don't portray the standart of men. Because your standart man or woman will generally not be a protagonist. It the original thread there were examples like Lara Croft, a woman that is basically under constant physical stress every single day of her life. It would be more than silly to expect her to not be thin.

 

[Cowabungaa]

But the whole process of demoniziation that goes on between people who are pro "fat shaming" versus people who are pro "fat acceptance" really is absurd.

You'd think having a middle ground in these sort of things ain't really that unreasonable, but that seems not to be the case in...anything at all. Taking extremes and being all sound bite-y about things seems to be hip with the kids.

I mean, ain't it perfectly reasonable to not be a dick to overweight people, yet being able to say ('being able' is the key word here, mind that) "that's a very unhealthy thing you're doing," right? Is it unreasonable to be nice but honest, as a society? I mean, come on people.

But I often think that it ain't unreasonable for me to, when I see an overweight person, to mostly think about highly increased risks for things like type-2 diabetes, certain types of cancers, cardiovascular disease, you name it. I don't think I want to marry someone who has such disregard for those risks, risks that are simply (but not easily, I can say from experience) decreased.

What we perhaps as a society, in this conversation should take into account, is that beauty standards are not the same as health standards. And in bickering about beauty standards and between shouting "fat is beautiful!" we lose sight of what really matters; being fat really sucks ass for your health and for the Western world in general. And that's something we should definitely address and promote. On that front I don't think we should accept fat, as it were. Fat acceptance on the beauty front? Sure.

 

[DerangedHobo]

*snip*

Society is one big clusterfuck of expectation and conformity, that's a fact but to state that people somehow can't obtain such a level is complete bullshit. It's pandering, you have 16 hours in a day, unless you can't feel anything from the neck down, you have no excuse (apart from "I have no interest in doing so") to not be healthy. The standards put forth about "health" are not unreasonable.

So I pretty much agree with you except for the "accepting" of societies standards. Society shouldn't have standards when it comes to what the average person "should" be. Rules and regulations, sure, but pushed standards? That can git fucked, the idea that I as a man should be wealthy, have a family and strive for some backyard notion of patriotism and masculinity can go fuck itself with a chainsaw.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

But the whole process of demoniziation that goes on between people who are pro "fat shaming" versus people who are pro "fat acceptance" really is absurd.

You'd think having a middle ground in these sort of things ain't really that unreasonable, but that seems not to be the case in...anything at all. Taking extremes and being all sound bite-y about things seems to be hip with the kids.

I mean, ain't it perfectly reasonable to not be a dick to overweight people, yet being able to say ('being able' is the key word here, mind that) "that's a very unhealthy thing you're doing," right? Is it unreasonable to be nice but honest, as a society? I mean, come on people.

But I often think that it ain't unreasonable for me to, when I see an overweight person, to mostly think about highly increased risks for things like type-2 diabetes, certain types of cancers, cardiovascular disease, you name it. I don't think I want to marry someone who has such disregard for those risks, risks that are simply (but not easily, I can say from experience) decreased.

What we perhaps as a society, in this conversation should take into account, is that beauty standards are not the same as health standards. And in bickering about beauty standards and between shouting "fat is beautiful!" we lose sight of what really matters; being fat really sucks ass for your health and for the Western world in general. And that's something we should definitely address and promote. On that front I don't think we should accept fat, as it were. Fat acceptance on the beauty front? Sure.

The problem is that health standard's aren't entirely universal, because people are different from each other, what might be healthy for one person can easily be unhealthy for another. That's part of the problem right there. Now there are cases where it's universally bad, being too overweight is generally be extremely unhealthy, but on the other hand, sumo wrestlers tend to be very heavy, but otherwise in great shape.

Also saying something like; "because of your weight I think you have a very unhealthy life-style", is seen as passing judgment on someone at face value. Rightly so to my mind, because you don't know that person's situation, there might be very good reasons that they have excess body fat, besides the fat they could be in good physical health otherwise. Aside from that they might have trouble losing fat mass for very valid medical reasons, they also might just be predisposed to being fat, despite being in otherwise great health. Besides all of that, it's very rude to shame someone you don't know for their life-style choices regardless, because it's none of your business, unless you're their physician.

 

[Cowabungaa]

The problem is that health standard's aren't entirely universal, because people are different from each other, what might be healthy for one person can easily be unhealthy for another. That's part of the problem right there. Now there are cases where it's universally bad, being too overweight is generally be extremely unhealthy, but on the other hand, sumo wrestlers tend to be very heavy, but otherwise in great shape.

Within limits. We've established certain health risks that comes with certain body types and lifestyles, that we medically know. Sumo wrestles are of a very extreme and abnormal body type (not in simple fatness, but a unique combination of factors), so they don't exactly form a good representation of the population at large.

That means that it's of course not perfect nor 100% universal. Averages never are and 100% universality is impossible. When you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people so you'll end up with exceptions and extremes that don't conform to the standard. But that doesn't mean we can or should say "It's all relative". That doesn't help us in the end, it's a dead end. We have to look at larger trends, and we do see a couple of those.

Also saying something like; "because of your weight I think you have a very unhealthy life-style", is seen as passing judgment on someone at face value. Rightly so to my mind, because you don't know that person's situation, there might be very good reasons that they have excess body fat, besides the fat they could be in good physical health otherwise. Aside from that they might have trouble losing fat mass for very valid medical reasons, they also might just be predisposed to being fat, despite being in otherwise great health. Besides all of that, it's very rude to shame someone you don't know for their life-style choices regardless, because it's none of your business, unless you're their physician.

All that would fall exactly under what I called being nice. We can both be nice and acknowledge that in many Western countries we have a big health problem related to obesity.

Again, there's always some relativity when we talk about millions upon millions of people, but that doesn't mean that there aren't problematic trends we should take a good, hard look at as a society. I never said we should do so at face value, nor that we should 'shame'. That ain't exactly nice. But should it be a topic we can all respectfully worry and talk about? Definitely.

 

[Megalodon]

The problem is that health standard's aren't entirely universal, because people are different from each other, what might be healthy for one person can easily be unhealthy for another. That's part of the problem right there. Now there are cases where it's universally bad, being too overweight is generally be extremely unhealthy, but on the other hand, sumo wrestlers tend to be very heavy, but otherwise in great shape.

It would appear that this is false. Being that fat is categorically bad for you. Sumo wrestlers aren't healthy. They might appear to be fine in their 20s and 30s (like most fat people), but being that large seems to bite them in the arse with a vengeance as they age. Although there's some variation in numbers, a quick internet trawl reveals an average life expectancy for Sumo's between 10 and 30 years less than the Japanese average. That is not a healthy lifestyle, however you spin it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

-snip-

The problem herein is that the use of the term obesity is taken as a zero sum idea on both sides. If you're not stick thin to one side, then you're morbidly obese and need to be shamed, on the other side if you're not somewhat chunky then you're unhealthily skinny, have an eating disorder, or/and, body image issues. Generally speaking being a little too thin, or a little hefty isn't that much of a risk, not everyone is, nor needs to be ideally toned. But if you don't fit into the standards of either the thin/health nut crowd, or the fat acceptance crowd, both sides will shame you. That's quite possibly even more unhealthy than just accepting that people who fall outside the averages might still be healthy and accepting that, to just accepting someone's life-style choices, no matter how unhealthy, if they're content with it and are refusing to seek help.

It's fair to say that society does have a problem with obesity, but we also have problems with bulimia, anorexia, and just generally unhealthy standards of beauty too. Getting on people's nerves by demanding they be more healthy is likely to make them belligerently against seeking a healthier lifestyle, because people are contrary, especially when you demand they change. This and when you pressure groups they band together and solidify their position via support groups, the ultra thin do it, the overweight do it, and it leads to them trying to force their ideal image down the throats of everyone else.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

It leads me to wonder however. Is any of those pictures desireable at all? I don't get it ... in Shadowrun Dragonfall, I think Eiger looks kind of cool and 'ideal'. Maybe I'm not really getting the 'appeal' angle. I don't really hve a preference of gender to begin with, but I always thought I had a decent and fairly normal appreciation for someone's body ... is it just me that I didn't find any of the pictures in the OP statement all that scintillating in comparison?

I mean, for one of them is cartoons ... secondly, the other is merely someone's idea of commodified appeal. Which ironically makes it less appealing (at least for me), because it's not as interesting as say, once again, another videogame character representation like Eiger.

I think the misstep here is assuming a commodification of beauty automatically relates to a general sense of beauty. If you were to create an image of someone, man or woman, and merely make it an amalgam of a thousand different qualities by which a whole group of people find on average attractive, you ultimately would end up with an otherwise perfect beauty that no one would find the least bit interesting to look at... save for those that wish to embellish the importance of singular qualities individuals might find the most attractive in a face and body.

Which leads me to wonder whether these images are 'ideals' at all ... I for one would prefer to spend a night with Eiger than any of them if we're going to compare constructed images of women in fiction.

I also don't think I'm all that weird for thinking as such <.< ... Eiger is a gorgeous troll.