Many, sure. That doesn't mean it's "just as applied to men as women", for whom it's pretty ubiquitous.MonsterCrit said:
"Internalizing the Oppression"
- Thread starter Paragon Fury
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When was the last time you saw a fat male lead? That wasn't a comedy.thaluikhain said:
Look through comings, cartoons, movies, video games and spot the physical and more importantly the roles pushed on men. Sorry it's just as much and just as ubiquitous.
You can say that for a lot of legitimate arguments, though.Burned Hand said:
That something can be abused in no way impacts its validity.
No, this is me debating you. And we are yet to establish what it is that I care or don't care about. So how about you answer the question instead of trying to weasel your way out? What do I care about and in what context?Burned Hand said:
So you are dodging the question. That's fine. But in the future make sure that you have something of substance to say. Because I will call you out on your bullshit.Burned Hand said:
One person has used 'care' liberally and the other has confused "caring about the issue" with "sympathizing with fat people"Burned Hand said:
Mild exercise and eating well will give me bigger tits? Shit, how has this never happened to me? I train for triathlons, and every time I cut body fat, my breasts - being 75-90% fat, like all other women's breasts in the world - get smaller, not larger.Paragon Fury said:
What exercises can I do, and what can I eat to turn my A-cups in to D-cups, as in the "realistic" idealized picture? All I'm ending up with is muscle tone and smaller tits. How do I spot-gain breast fat without getting "undesirable" fat elsewhere on my body, too?
OP's got the right idea, but I wouldn't call anything from DoA a 'healthy ideal'.
Yes. There is a huge problem with female representation and body types not just in games, but in pretty much everything. I think Movie Bob summed this up best (Before he went crazy) in one of his Big Picture videos, where he compared the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) men with the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) women. The results, while unsurprising, are still damned depressing. (I can't remember the video's title, so sorry if anyone wants to see it. Might try to find it later.) Hell, even Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 -- often considered one the best female characters in gaming -- has a body that most people could only get with religious dieting and exercise. (Though, given she's a resistance fighter in a dystopian future, I think that can be excused.)
THAT SAID. OP's right (At least partially.) about the kinds of people who constantly ***** about this sort of thing. They often have a hard time distinguishing between idealization and cartoonish exaggeration, and their opinions are often skewed by personal insecurities and a perceived sense of 'oppression'.
But if you ask me? The real tragedy lies in these radicals getting all the attention whenever the issue is brought up, while people with legitimate, reasonable concerns have their voices drowned out amidst a cacophony of shouting.
Yes. There is a huge problem with female representation and body types not just in games, but in pretty much everything. I think Movie Bob summed this up best (Before he went crazy) in one of his Big Picture videos, where he compared the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) men with the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) women. The results, while unsurprising, are still damned depressing. (I can't remember the video's title, so sorry if anyone wants to see it. Might try to find it later.) Hell, even Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 -- often considered one the best female characters in gaming -- has a body that most people could only get with religious dieting and exercise. (Though, given she's a resistance fighter in a dystopian future, I think that can be excused.)
THAT SAID. OP's right (At least partially.) about the kinds of people who constantly ***** about this sort of thing. They often have a hard time distinguishing between idealization and cartoonish exaggeration, and their opinions are often skewed by personal insecurities and a perceived sense of 'oppression'.
But if you ask me? The real tragedy lies in these radicals getting all the attention whenever the issue is brought up, while people with legitimate, reasonable concerns have their voices drowned out amidst a cacophony of shouting.
I saw this posted on another forum. It was linked to facebook so I uploaded it to imgur instead. I couldn't agree with it more.
Steroid tank beefcake, of course, is a body type that I sincerely doubt is included with women in mind. As for numerical equivalence, I can only speak from experience, but I really don't see parity there-- fantasy games will tend to include bikini armour designs for numerous sets, but you'll have to hunt around for a male set that shows a hint of chest. Even my old mainstay, GW1, was guilty of that, though GW2 has improved on it vastly.MonsterCrit said:
I didn't say it's bad to portray women with DD's in media-- my position is that it's frustrating when the balance is thrown so out of whack that average sizes are rarer.MonsterCrit said:
Wish-fulfilment media, certainly. Most good art isn't purely that.MonsterCrit said:
Careful there, a while back I tried arguing this and was met with a bunch of other guys trying to convince me that Marcus Fenix and Kratos are designed to be eye candy.Silvanus said:
On the one hand, "internalized oppression" actually is a real thing. Though I disagree with the melodramatic language of the term, it is true that vulnerable minorities may find themselves believing in the very ideas that make them vulnerable in the first place. The classic example would be gay people who do not want to come out and tell other gay people not to come out because they believe that being openly gay will offend anti-gay religious people, despite the fact that the social stigma created by homophobes is the very reason gays have any reason to worry about coming out in the first place.
On the other hand, it tends to get abused a lot by what I suppose we could call pseudo-sociologists as an escape hatch and indicates a genuine lack of understanding of others' positions; it is a functionally similar accusation as the suggestion that one's debate opponent is possessed by demons. The underlying assertion is that the opponent is a victim of the very evil the debater claims to be fighting, and if only the opponent wasn't being controlled by said enemy they would instantly agree with you. If your position is that women are forced to follow an ideal imposed on them by men, then a woman who says she has her own reasons for wanting to lose weight is problematic for this position.
This also belies the assumption that the only reason female characters are idealized by designers is so that they can be eye-candy for male players. I find this a bit patronizing as a man because it seems to assert that the only reason I can appreciate a woman's beautiful appearance is a desire to have sex with her. It's human nature that beautiful people are naturally preferred to plain people and that people want to associate with beautiful people, and "beauty" is defined by scarcity. And if it was just about wanting to screw, why are the male protagonists of media targeted at males also often designed to be ideally beautiful in some way? And why are female protagonists in media targeted at females often also designed to be ideally beautiful?
On the other hand, it tends to get abused a lot by what I suppose we could call pseudo-sociologists as an escape hatch and indicates a genuine lack of understanding of others' positions; it is a functionally similar accusation as the suggestion that one's debate opponent is possessed by demons. The underlying assertion is that the opponent is a victim of the very evil the debater claims to be fighting, and if only the opponent wasn't being controlled by said enemy they would instantly agree with you. If your position is that women are forced to follow an ideal imposed on them by men, then a woman who says she has her own reasons for wanting to lose weight is problematic for this position.
This also belies the assumption that the only reason female characters are idealized by designers is so that they can be eye-candy for male players. I find this a bit patronizing as a man because it seems to assert that the only reason I can appreciate a woman's beautiful appearance is a desire to have sex with her. It's human nature that beautiful people are naturally preferred to plain people and that people want to associate with beautiful people, and "beauty" is defined by scarcity. And if it was just about wanting to screw, why are the male protagonists of media targeted at males also often designed to be ideally beautiful in some way? And why are female protagonists in media targeted at females often also designed to be ideally beautiful?
I wouldn't say there is a strictly 1 to 1 parity (as in boob armor for men and women equally) but I would say it is pretty close in terms of concept. Men in fiction are portrayed just as ideally, just with different types of ideals being portrayed. Just as there are many types of ideal women portrayed in fiction there are many types of ideal men portrayed in fiction. These male ideals are just as impossible for men to obtain as the female ideal is impossible for women to obtain and are far more arbitrary to boot. And men are punished very directly and often extremely harshly by their peers when they fail to live up to that standard.Silvanus said:
It is not the same standard and maybe not even the same kind of standard, but it is just as impossibly idealized and damaging. Just consider how many men have a completely overblown fear of appearing feminine in any way and show outright hostility and contempt for behaviors, ideas or even colors they code as feminine. Some men are even so damaged by this arbitrary standard that they feel threatened when any man fails to live up to the standard of manliness and respond very negatively toward such individuals.
If men are equally idealised-- arguable, certainly-- it's not in the same respect, and certainly not as outwardly sexual. I'd be inclined to argue that the idealised men and idealised women are both present in order to cater to the male audience.ThatOtherGirl said:
Of course, you'll get no argument from me that idealised males can be damaging to the boys and men who endlessly see them.
A few things;
1: I would've included a link to the thread on the other forum, but it got locked and deleted because some other users got a bit too...rowdy and rude with each other so the mods locked it down. Sorry.
2: By "mild exercise" I'm talking about the stuff your doctor would tell you to do; take the stairs, walk as often as possible, ride a bike to work etc. Proper diet is basically....well, not what we eat in the United States. Sure, you won't get the super-toned, nice bodies of the unaltered pictures, but you almost certainly wouldn't look anything like the post-altered pictures either. I mean, hell, I know just from personal experience that the altered picture of Helena is not healthy. Helena Douglas is 5'7...the same height as my mother. My Mom, despite looking relatively alright, still gets crap from her doctor to lose some weight because she is a bit heavy. Am I supposed to believe that the altered Helena, who is easily 2x the size of my mother who already needs to lose a little weight, is supposed to be healthy?
3: Men are just as misrepresented in media as women; yes, even though so many of those characters are "male power fantasies". It seems no one ever stops to ask the follow-up question though; why are they male power fantasies? The answer?
Results. Marcus Fenix, Kratos, Dante, Bayman, Hayabusa, Link (who is actually specifically designed to appeal to women now, or rather A woman, since the designer of Link has been following his wife's guidance for Link's designs since OoT), even in games like Pokemon with the male Champions and Gym Leaders.
Men are designed like that because those kinds of men get results. Men who look and act like they do get the best selection of women, get the most opportunities with women and have the most, we'll call it "purchasing power", with women. As men, even nerdy, socially isolated men like myself, we're constantly told by women and media (IE: Blogs, women's health articles, dating sites etc.)
that women are really more into guys like Gordon Freeman for example...but then, and I'm going to borrow a phrase here...our "lived experience" is that the Gordon Freemans of the world get to go home alone or get to take home the leftovers, while the Dantes, Links, Marcus Fenixes of get to take home the best of the best and the worthwhile ones.
4: I'm pretty sure they were using "Internalized Oppression" against me because I was saying that I didn't disagree with society's standards for men even though I don't meet them (and those of you who have actually seen a picture of me know I don't) and that I should be against it in order to change it to include me.
5: I understand that the bust size is a point of contention, and I suppose I should mention that no, I don't expect them to be that size.
Anymore. Its still a little hard for me to remember that "average" is smaller than what I thought it was growing up. Because when I was growing up, all the women in my life - mom, grandma (I know, EWWWWW), next door neighbor's sister etc. all had, impressive busts. So I grew up thinking someone of Helena/Kasumi's size was the average for adult women, not the out-lier. I mean, hell, the only two women near my age when I was growing up didn't help either; until I went two college the only two girls my age I ever really interacted with looked like (pre altered) Riku and this:
[/imgur]
1: I would've included a link to the thread on the other forum, but it got locked and deleted because some other users got a bit too...rowdy and rude with each other so the mods locked it down. Sorry.
2: By "mild exercise" I'm talking about the stuff your doctor would tell you to do; take the stairs, walk as often as possible, ride a bike to work etc. Proper diet is basically....well, not what we eat in the United States. Sure, you won't get the super-toned, nice bodies of the unaltered pictures, but you almost certainly wouldn't look anything like the post-altered pictures either. I mean, hell, I know just from personal experience that the altered picture of Helena is not healthy. Helena Douglas is 5'7...the same height as my mother. My Mom, despite looking relatively alright, still gets crap from her doctor to lose some weight because she is a bit heavy. Am I supposed to believe that the altered Helena, who is easily 2x the size of my mother who already needs to lose a little weight, is supposed to be healthy?
3: Men are just as misrepresented in media as women; yes, even though so many of those characters are "male power fantasies". It seems no one ever stops to ask the follow-up question though; why are they male power fantasies? The answer?
Results. Marcus Fenix, Kratos, Dante, Bayman, Hayabusa, Link (who is actually specifically designed to appeal to women now, or rather A woman, since the designer of Link has been following his wife's guidance for Link's designs since OoT), even in games like Pokemon with the male Champions and Gym Leaders.
Men are designed like that because those kinds of men get results. Men who look and act like they do get the best selection of women, get the most opportunities with women and have the most, we'll call it "purchasing power", with women. As men, even nerdy, socially isolated men like myself, we're constantly told by women and media (IE: Blogs, women's health articles, dating sites etc.)
that women are really more into guys like Gordon Freeman for example...but then, and I'm going to borrow a phrase here...our "lived experience" is that the Gordon Freemans of the world get to go home alone or get to take home the leftovers, while the Dantes, Links, Marcus Fenixes of get to take home the best of the best and the worthwhile ones.
4: I'm pretty sure they were using "Internalized Oppression" against me because I was saying that I didn't disagree with society's standards for men even though I don't meet them (and those of you who have actually seen a picture of me know I don't) and that I should be against it in order to change it to include me.
5: I understand that the bust size is a point of contention, and I suppose I should mention that no, I don't expect them to be that size.
Anymore. Its still a little hard for me to remember that "average" is smaller than what I thought it was growing up. Because when I was growing up, all the women in my life - mom, grandma (I know, EWWWWW), next door neighbor's sister etc. all had, impressive busts. So I grew up thinking someone of Helena/Kasumi's size was the average for adult women, not the out-lier. I mean, hell, the only two women near my age when I was growing up didn't help either; until I went two college the only two girls my age I ever really interacted with looked like (pre altered) Riku and this:
As far as being overtly sexual, that is true, the male idealized are only sometimes overtly sexual. But it can be just as much about body image. It is a subtle difference, but women are expected to be a certain way (namely attractive) and all the stereotypes fit into that expectation. Men on the other hand are primarily expected to not be a certain ways, and all the stereotypes fit that expectation. Kratos can be and ugly mass of muscle but Cloud merely putting on a dress and wig is so controversial that people are campaigning to have it removed from the remake because it is so offensive. And yes, I know many of the people campaigning are doing so in the name of not being offensive to trans people (which I personally disagree with), but that alone highlights the problem. A girly man, even temporarily so, is seen as so out of the ordinary that someone somewhere will be offended by it. But why? Only because societies expectations are so strict, unreasonable and punishing about what men are allowed to be, what they are allowed to wear, what they are allowed to say or do or even think.Silvanus said:
Female characters that don't fit the stereotype (ie, ugly or plain) are rare, but when they are usually there as some sort of contrast or to signify something about the character. Unmanly male characters are far more common, but they typically don't even get the respect of being significant. A man that does not fit the manly stereotype in fiction is a joke, a person that exists to be openly mocked.
I believe that this is ultimately a much worse problem than the unrealistic depiction of women, especially to the cause of feminism. The expectations placed on men are so strong that it warps the way virtually all men think and act. For many men it is the defining point of how they interact with the world, and unfortunately a lot of what men are expected to be like involves the marginalization of women. To give an example, the damsel in distress trope is only a problem because society's expectation teaches men to think of women as things to be obtained.
As for it being there to cater to men, probably in most cases. But if that is the case it is in the way Victoria Secret ads are designed to cater to women. The whole fantasy is built around the idea that for a little while men can feel like they meet the impossible standard. This is why the idea of a female power fantasy is so hard to nail down. Women do not have the same kind of expectation put on them so they have no reason to have a power fantasy, at least not one that is parallel to the male power fantasy. Because the male power fantasy is not about power at all, it is a fantasy about being able to meet the expectation of maleness. But feelings are not manly and power is, so the entire thing is wrapped in a "I am so strong!" cover so men don't have to admit to themselves that they are doing this to feel better, because that would be unmanly. The lingerie ads are just more honest and direct about the intention: Wear this and you will feel sexier.
My girlfriend exercised for 4 hours a day and ate less than 1200 calories a day (in vegetarian food) for 4 months. She gained 20 pounds in fat.
Tell me again how ideal beauty standards are totally achievable with proper diet and moderate exercise? Note that this has been the case with literally every woman I have ever met (a few hundred).
Tell me again how ideal beauty standards are totally achievable with proper diet and moderate exercise? Note that this has been the case with literally every woman I have ever met (a few hundred).
Internalized oppression has been documented and proven to be a real thing many, many times over, though (look at black slaveowners in the American south pre-civil war). Therefore, the burden of proof is on those who claim "well THAT'S a convenient argument!"Burned Hand said: