Invention

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Whitto

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My little rant about the British inventing nearly everything in the 'Dear UK' topic has got me thinking, is 'invention' really possible? Can any human be credited with inventing anything, since everyones ideas come from what they have learned of the world and other people? How much input can we have if we come from Nature, are part of Nature, and Nature is the source of our ideas? With all our cunning technology, are we not merely aping Nature? Can any one person claim credit for an idea? Do we create ideas, or are they just there, waiting to be tapped into by a human mind?

Your thoughts please, good people...
 

Whitto

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Good, somebody brought up the wheel, is it really such an amazing achievement? I mean, logs and rocks roll down hills on a regular basis, it isn't much of a stretch of intellect to try and copy that in a controllable form, which is my point, aren't we just copying nature by building things? We didn't 'invent the concept of rolling did we? It was already there, we just found a way to use it.
 

John Galt

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The technological advancement of human societies has always been a cumulative event. Occasionally, a lone inventor-genius will come along and revolutionize a process but it is generally a slow progression to a new technology. Unless a new industry and field of study were to be created by one person, they would not be able to claim full credit. Ideas are not exclusively created by humans alone or simply present in our minds from the start. It's more a mixture of both. History has shown us how our minds developed to the point of using stone tools as well as showing us that original ideas do exist. Take biotech for example: your materials and processes are natural, whereas a human mind is at work altering the processes in order to better suit their own needs.

In order to convince yourself that technological progress is cumulative, simply look at history. The civilizations that remained connected with others developed technology at a relatively fast pace(Eurasia) even though the population as a whole might not be smarter than the isolated communities such as New Guinea(where it's been demonstrated that isolated villagers can learn faster than their Western counterparts). If technology was reliant solely on the lone geniuses of time, then the New Guineans, who's evolution has been guided by conflict rather than disease(this would select traits like intelligence over genetic immunity, thus increasing IQ over time), then they would end up with the necessary tools to conquer the Europeans, not the other way around.

Yes, I realize I've ignored natural resources in my argument, remember that the Mesoamerican societies had a plethora of available resources, they simply were not as well connected to each other, thus you could not transfer ideas and inspire new modifications.

While invention is cumulative, I do not think that just anyone can do it. It's pretty clear to us now that not all men are created equal. If one were to say that no one man is responsible for an invention and then go on to say that inventors are not unique, they would also have to take into account that a certain type of person was required to create it, while identity is irrelevant.

For further study into this, read Guns, Germs, And Steel by Jared Diamond.
 

werepossum

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John Galt said:
The technological advancement of human societies has always been a cumulative event. Occasionally, a lone inventor-genius will come along and revolutionize a process but it is generally a slow progression to a new technology. Unless a new industry and field of study were to be created by one person, they would not be able to claim full credit. Ideas are not exclusively created by humans alone or simply present in our minds from the start. It's more a mixture of both. History has shown us how our minds developed to the point of using stone tools as well as showing us that original ideas do exist. Take biotech for example: your materials and processes are natural, whereas a human mind is at work altering the processes in order to better suit their own needs.

In order to convince yourself that technological progress is cumulative, simply look at history. The civilizations that remained connected with others developed technology at a relatively fast pace(Eurasia) even though the population as a whole might not be smarter than the isolated communities such as New Guinea(where it's been demonstrated that isolated villagers can learn faster than their Western counterparts). If technology was reliant solely on the lone geniuses of time, then the New Guineans, who's evolution has been guided by conflict rather than disease(this would select traits like intelligence over genetic immunity, thus increasing IQ over time), then they would end up with the necessary tools to conquer the Europeans, not the other way around.

Yes, I realize I've ignored natural resources in my argument, remember that the Mesoamerican societies had a plethora of available resources, they simply were not as well connected to each other, thus you could not transfer ideas and inspire new modifications.

While invention is cumulative, I do not think that just anyone can do it. It's pretty clear to us now that not all men are created equal. If one were to say that no one man is responsible for an invention and then go on to say that inventors are not unique, they would also have to take into account that a certain type of person was required to create it, while identity is irrelevant.

For further study into this, read Guns, Germs, And Steel by Jared Diamond.
Egads! Homework!

All men are created equal in the eyes of G-d and the law; they are not equal in all respects.

Alternately, G-d made all men, but Samual Colt made all men equal.
 

Anarchemitis

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I kinda made a thread like this a while ago called 'Patents'.
Anyways, what do you think is the most influential invention: typewriters, gunpowder or steam-engines?
 

Whitto

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Sorry Anarchemitis, guess I wasn't thorough enough, but you've sugested a good tangent for this topic to go off on! My answer: The Knife

Even today, if you have the right knowledge, you can got off into the wilderness and live comfortable with nothing but a good knife. If i was to choose from your selections, i would have to say the typewriter.
 

Fire Daemon

Quoth the Daemon
Dec 18, 2007
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Anarchemitis said:
I kinda made a thread like this a while ago called 'Patents'.
Anyways, what do you think is the most influential invention: typewriters, gunpowder or steam-engines?
Gunpowder. Typewriters didn't really do anything apart from making it easier to write things down. Whereas gun powder has fuelled war and led to the invention of every modern military instrument (be it tank, plane, gun etc). It is also responsible for every war and the results of every war. So yeah, I think Gunpowder is the most influential invention out of those 3.

When you say that all inventions are just channels of nature you are correct in a way. Yes all inventions can be linked back to simple science and nature but that does not mean someone can't claim that they didn't invent them. Invention is the creation of an object, therefore if someone creates he/she is an inventor and just because this invention pre-exists in another form that does not mean they did not create the object.

Take for existence Thomas Edison. The man wore no pyjama's and invented around a bazillion inventions, one of these being the light bulb. By your logic he didn't invent the light bulb because light already existed. He didn't invent light (someone already had) he created an object that creates light, this is different to light. I'm pretty sure he can claim credit for the light bulb (unless he stole it)
 

John Galt

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Steam engines. The typewriter and gunpowder modified existing industries, that is, writing and war. However, the steam engine has lent its use to all sorts of things. Mining, locomotives, industry, hydraulics, vehicles, the list goes on and on. I feel it's changed those fields much more than gunpowder and the typewriter have for their own industries.
 

Whitto

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Fire Daemon said:
Anarchemitis said:
I kinda made a thread like this a while ago called 'Patents'.
Anyways, what do you think is the most influential invention: typewriters, gunpowder or steam-engines?
Gunpowder. Typewriters didn't really do anything apart from making it easier to write things down. Whereas gun powder has fuelled war and led to the invention of every modern military instrument (be it tank, plane, gun etc). It is also responsible for every war and the results of every war. So yeah, I think Gunpowder is the most influential invention out of those 3.

When you say that all inventions are just channels of nature you are correct in a way. Yes all inventions can be linked back to simple science and nature but that does not mean someone can't claim that they didn't invent them. Invention is the creation of an object, therefore if someone creates he/she is an inventor and just because this invention pre-exists in another form that does not mean they did not create the object.

Take for existence Thomas Edison. The man wore no pyjama's and invented around a bazillion inventions, one of these being the light bulb. By your logic he didn't invent the light bulb because light already existed. He didn't invent light (someone already had) he created an object that creates light, this is different to light. I'm pretty sure he can claim credit for the light bulb (unless he stole it)

Actually he didn't invent the lightbulb, see my posts in 'Dear UK' for details, but your argument is valid, I stand corrected, my mind is at ease, and I thank you. :D
 

Alotak

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I mabye the only person who thinks this is ironic but we have come so far mainly due to our desire to kill each other in new and more efficient ways.

Also we are the first species on earth with the means to cause our own extinction.

I must admit that the best invention ever is the computer, if you a theist then it would undoubtably be Us (Humanity).
 

Calobi

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Fire Daemon said:
Gunpowder. Typewriters didn't really do anything apart from making it easier to write things down. Whereas gun powder has fuelled war and led to the invention of every modern military instrument (be it tank, plane, gun etc). It is also responsible for every war and the results of every war.
While you may be correct in that it inspired many new weapons, not all modern weapons are a result of gunpowder. Many bombs don't require it, some aircraft don't use it even if they have active fighting roles. Also, it doesn't really fuel wars. It's a useful advantage in killing to be sure, but arrows and swords kill people just as dead as a bullet.

To say it's responsible for wars is giving credit/assigning blame to the wrong place. It's the user of the gunpowder/weapon, or their leaders in most cases, that begin wars. The gunpowder just makes killing easier and quicker for the fighters.

I'd have to say, though, that gunpowder is the most influential thing on that list in that it makes killing people a much less arduous task for the one who has to do it. No longer do they have to go up to their victim and swing a weapon, or take into account elevation, wind speed, distance from target (I understand they still do, but much less so now) and carefully aim to be sure they get a kill. Now it's much easier, pick a target, do some relatively simple calculations, aim, fire. Repeat until target is dead.
 

werepossum

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Gunpowder languished for centuries before being heavily used. Steam engines revolutionized the world. But if you include movable type with typewriters, then I'd say that. Before printing presses and movable type, very few people were literate. Therefore knowledge which before could only spread by word of mouth, could now be widely and easily disseminated. No movable type, no widespread literacy, no steam engine.

However the greatest invention of all time is the Apple iBoob, an MP3 player which is installed in a breast implant, the player in one side and the memory stack in the other. This should satisfy women who are always complaining that men are always staring at their boobs and not listening to them...
 

Tatter

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I'd go with gunpowder. The typewriter was nothing more than an upgrade to the linotype machines (now, the original Gutenberg printing press was more important an invention than any of the three, possibly the most important invention of the modern world). The steam engine is harder to dismiss, as it revolutionized transport, but without the capture and holding of territory that gunpowder made possible, steam engines would lack the fuel to operate, not to mention the idle time needed to maintain them and find better applications for them than the "hey, look at this thing spin!" the Greeks put them to.

So, why gunpodwer? Well, it's more for the "gun" than for the "powder," really. Black powder was used in fireworks and occasional bombs by Oriental empires since long before the Europeans even invented the poleaxe. However, the Europeans were the ones who came up with the idea to load it into a man-portable gun and use it to fire a projectile that would readily penetrate all but the heaviest armor. The only comparable weapons were crossbows and longbows, both of which required great strength to operate, and in the case of longbows, years of training as well in order to reliably hit targets. The real advancement of the gun was not its lethality (all three could kill a man in one shot, right through chain mail, at similar ranges), but the fact that killing people with a gun was as simple as following a couple instructions carefully. A peasant with six days of training with a rifle was as deadly as an archer with six years of training with the longbow, and not to put too fine a point on it, was much easier to replace when he got killed on the battlefield. More importantly, the gun was the first true equalizer, a weapon that could be as deadly in the hands of a 5-year-old child as in those of a trained soldier in peak physical condition. Without the gun, the break with England that was the American Revolution would never have been possible; a team of trained archers would have put down any such peasant uprising easily.
 

Fire Daemon

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Dec 18, 2007
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To Calobi: All new weapons are a result of gun powder and the evolution of fire arms over time. Through the invention of gun powder and the adopted military tactic of standing at each other until one side feel down the winners of war where usually determined by who had the best gun. Hence wanting to win wars the military designed better guns.

Eventually this gun creation created things such as the mine, Artillery, fully automatic weapons and the bomb. The invention of the plane gave someone the bright idea of putting a bomb on it and dropping it on your enemy. As time went on however people did find that some weapons did not need gunpowder however without the invention of gunpowder these weapons would never have been realised.

When I said "responsible for every war" I meant that the use of gun powder changed the face of the world and hence is someway responsible for the wars on this world. At the same time I could say that gun powder is responsible for alot of the births in the world.
 

Anarchemitis

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The typewriter is a very influential device indeed; bringing about news that could be distributed almost instantly everywhere, books could be written in days instead of [...]long times. Up until Gutenburg's invention, all books and written articles had to be hand written.
And the first thing that was typed: the Catholic Bible.
 

Saskwach

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Alotak said:
Also we are the first species on earth with the means to cause our own extinction.
That's not totally true. About 7 times in history a species has brought about it's own extinction, but admittedly while in conflict with another species. It went like this: sabre-tooth tigers had big teeth to break into the thick hide of a creature I forget the name of, but that we'll call cows. In response the cows grew thicker hides. The Sabre-tooths (teeth?) grew bigger teeth. So the cows grew thicker hides and so on until the sabre-tooths and the cows were both so weighed down by the boons of their arms race that both died out together. It's actually kind of funny and very similar to humanity if you only consider that the other species in this arms race has also been humanity.