is "affirmative action" further spreading race issues in our society?

[vampirekid.13]

ok, obviously im taking a topic that was locked, rewording it and trying to have an interesting conversation with the rest of the members of this board about it.


rules: no flaming, trolling, or racial slurs allowed, actually, no "bad" words at all. just keep it civil.


with that in mind, do you feel affirmative action is the right way to minimize "racism" in this society.

i personally feel that affirmative action, and race specific rules does nothing but further spread the issue. when you create a law that targets actions specifically against a race or multiple races, such as the introduction of "hate crimes" and affirmative action, you are doing nothing but spreading the problem.

 

[Tech Team FTW!]

i personally feel that affirmative action, and race specific rules does nothing but further spread the issue. when you create a law that targets actions specifically against a race or multiple races, such as the introduction of "hate crimes" and affirmative action, you are doing nothing but spreading the problem.

Do you maybe have something to back this up?

 

[Kpt._Rob]

While it is true that affirmative action may increase the number of hate crimes, and aggrivate some of those who are not benefited by it, it is necessary precisely because of the race issues in our society. We have a massive amount of institutionalized racism in this country, and most people while not racists on a KKK level do suffer from minor racial biases, and sometimes even buy into the stereotypes. Note here, however, that affirmative action is an integration policy, what I mean by that is that the purpose of affirmative action is to assimilate African Americans into white culture, the ultimate affect being that there is no longer a unique African American culture. When it comes down to it, there will, quite unfortunately, always be racial tensions as long as there are seperate cultures, so it is necessary to decide whether racial equality or cultural preservation should come first, and as to an answer to that question I'm afraid I don't have one.

 

[vampirekid.13]

definition of affirmative action is: A policy or program providing advantages for people of a minority group who are seen to have traditionally been discriminated against, with the aim of creating a more egalitarian society through preferential access to education, employment, health care, social welfare, etc.

we are fighting out for equality yet making rules aimed at specific race/sex. does that really give people the feeling that society isnt racist/sexist? it makes me feel that infact society is very racist/sexist.

here is a nice quote from a friend a few days ago. if i was lets say interviewing for a job, and at the end of the group interview i turn to the only girl in the group and say "you got the job, because YOU ARE A WOMAN." is that not sexist? how about "Gentlemen, you did not get the job because you are men."

thats downright sexist but its deemed ok under the preface of affirmative action.

 

[ThreeWords]

I'm not entirely sure what 'affirmative action' is, but that might be because it hasn't here (UK) yet. However, if it's the same as political correctness, I agree, I think it is making the problem worse.

In my opinion, all people start equal, so you should treat them all the same until something merits other action. Eg it's good to punish someone for being racist, but there's no point being paranoid about words like 'blackboard'

Also, in a possibly related topic, I think that racism can be directed both ways. It may not be as common, but people should not be alert for just the white supremacist variety

 

[Signa]

That last lock pissed me off. I spent quite a long time writing a well thought out response, and then it got locked before I hit submit.

With that, I leave you this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCrRbJKU5Po]. No longer fully on-topic, but I watched it again since I referred to it in my last post, and I found it as wise as ever.

 

[wasalp]

Well its a double edged sword really. You keep affirmative action around and the non-minorities start to complain about its unfairness. If you were then to remove it and the job scene becomes unbalanced with non-minorities gaining most of the jobs then questions arise about whether you are being racist or exclusionary in your hiring practises. I think most major companies maintaing affirmative action in order to avoid unwanted attention from government watch dogs or civil liberties organizations. I think a lot of times it does invite racism, specially if a non-minority has lost out on a job due to affirmative action but getting rid of it has its own problems as well.

I completely agree with this, there has been such a law implemented in the Canadian government where the number of people in high rank jobs must reflect the population. This has led to a lot of people getting jobs they don't deserve, for the sole reason that the government doesn't want to hear minority whine. I believe the minorities should deal with it and try being capable.

signed: impatient Frenchmen

 

[RavingLibDem]

I think in places like the US at the moment you do need a period of affirmative action, because what people regularly regret is that it rarely involves admitting actually poorer candidates, it tends to just mean if your at the same level as someone else but they happen to come from a racial minority they get let in above you. Frankly as most figures will show if you've got to the same stage as many white applicants while being from what is often a poorer, less educated home then you deserve to get in above some middle class white boy who feels he has a god given right to go to college.

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

 

[santaandy]

I agree with you on the affirmative action part. It was needed at one time, but we should be past that now. If we aren't, instead of making better rules, we should focus on making better people. Those who overlook because of race should be educated to behave properly, and those who get overlooked because of race should be given whatever is needed to counter stereotypical opinions held about that race (I hear a fair shake at education is a big one). And on both sides, if you're just being a douche, you should be left out entirely, regardless of race. Douchebaggery should not be tolerated, no exceptions.

Now hate crimes, they are real. And we do need laws against them. But I think people should take it seriously and not make light of it. I know, a crime is a crime, but if we can attempt to eliminate a reason for it, we may help prevent it. I just hate people who try to equate uttering a slur word with inflicting violence on someone for being a minority. It's not the same. The word isn't the problem, it's the feeling behind it. A joke with slurs shouldn't be punished, but hate speech, even without slurs, should. Jokes don't turn people into criminals, hate does. Focusing on the words over the feelings just takes us backward and makes the problem worse.

I think I'll just leave it at that for now.

 

[Tech Team FTW!]

definition of affirmative action is: A policy or program providing advantages for people of a minority group who are seen to have traditionally been discriminated against, with the aim of creating a more egalitarian society through preferential access to education, employment, health care, social welfare, etc.

we are fighting out for equality yet making rules aimed at specific race/sex. does that really give people the feeling that society isnt racist/sexist? it makes me feel that infact society is very racist/sexist.

here is a nice quote from a friend a few days ago. if i was lets say interviewing for a job, and at the end of the group interview i turn to the only girl in the group and say "you got the job, because YOU ARE A WOMAN." is that not sexist? how about "Gentlemen, you did not get the job because you are men."

thats downright sexist but its deemed ok under the preface of affirmative action.

This is as random as attacking every other law that gives power to one group over any other. All that results in is something like this:
Legislators shouldn't be allowed to make laws.
Police shouldn't be allowed to enforce laws.
Laws shouldn't be applied to you because you had no choice in making the laws.

The only group it is ok to make fun of is the heterosexual white man, provided he has no disabilities or illnesses. Everything else has become taboo.

Affirmative action appears to be a case of trying to do the right thing the wrong way.

 

[DrunkenKitty]

Racism is a cultural problem. It's not a legal problem. It's not a law enforcement issue. It's really none of the government's business.

 

[demonsaber]

I think in places like the US at the moment you do need a period of affirmative action, because what people regularly regret is that it rarely involves admitting actually poorer candidates, it tends to just mean if your at the same level as someone else but they happen to come from a racial minority they get let in above you. Frankly as most figures will show if you've got to the same stage as many white applicants while being from what is often a poorer, less educated home then you deserve to get in above some middle class white boy who feels he has a god given right to go to college.

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

1. Middle class does not mean easy street. My family is considered middle class and we have lived in some pretty fucked up places and barely scraped enough to survive growing up.

2. It is EVERYONE'S god given right to make it in college and better themselves. I am all for a poorer person getting the government aid that I requested as long as they use it.

3. We do not owe the african americans jack crap. Every society that has ever been large or powerful has been started off slavery of some sort (rome, egypt, england (had some for awhile), russia(they didn't really hire any but their people were basically slaves), the aztec indians had a form of slavery. Hell there are places in africa that still have slavery today. I am not saying it's right or that we should go out and own some people to do our work, but you have to realize that damn near every power used slavery at some point and if you are going to give America shit about it, you damn well better attack other cultures as well.

4. My people (the irish) suffered far worse than slaves did. My people were killed outright, starved to death most of the times when they got to america, suffered racial prejudice far exceeding the african slaves, got their arms ripped off in factories, and worked to death. Where is our payback? How about the Chinese and the Japanese. Go look up what we did to them during World War 2 and look up what we did to them during the "wild west". Paying back one group of people for past fuck ups and showing one group compassion, while at the same time hindering others, is massive bullshit.

On that note, let's just try to make a White Entrainment Television or Asian Entertainment Television (this one could pass) and see how far it goes.

 

[RavingLibDem]

I think in places like the US at the moment you do need a period of affirmative action, because what people regularly regret is that it rarely involves admitting actually poorer candidates, it tends to just mean if your at the same level as someone else but they happen to come from a racial minority they get let in above you. Frankly as most figures will show if you've got to the same stage as many white applicants while being from what is often a poorer, less educated home then you deserve to get in above some middle class white boy who feels he has a god given right to go to college.

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

1. Middle class does not mean easy street. My family is considered middle class and we have lived in some pretty fucked up places and barely scraped enough to survive growing up.

2. It is EVERYONE'S god given right to make it in college and better themselves. I am all for a poorer person getting the government aid that I requested as long as they use it.

3. We do not owe the african americans jack crap. Every society that has ever been large or powerful has been started off slavery of some sort (rome, egypt, england (had some for awhile), russia(they didn't really hire any but their people were basically slaves), the aztec indians had a form of slavery. Hell there are places in africa that still have slavery today. I am not saying it's right or that we should go out and own some people to do our work, but you have to realize that damn near every power used slavery at some point and if you are going to give America shit about it, you damn well better attack other cultures as well.

4. My people (the irish) suffered far worse than slaves did. My people were killed outright, starved to death most of the times when they got to america, suffered racial prejudice far exceeding the african slaves, got their arms ripped off in factories, and worked to death. Where is our payback? How about the Chinese and the Japanese. Go look up what we did to them during World War 2 and look up what we did to them during the "wild west". Paying back one group of people for past fuck ups and showing one group compassion, while at the same time hindering others, is massive bullshit.

On that note, let's just try to make a White Entrainment Television or Asian Entertainment Television (this one could pass) and see how far it goes.

1. look, what I meant about the middle class was that you generally have a more supportive home, and certainly a home more conductive and encouraging to learning.

2. great, yes, im all for it, but while in the US you insist on your stupid flawed bias system you don't get this.

3. okay, woopee, your not the only one's who did a whoopsee, does that mean you shouldn't try and make up for it? Frankly, I think the argument that other people have buggered up, therefore we don't need to try and make up for what we do is a rubbish one. In the US it is still a fact that african americans have much less chance of getting various jobs, or education oppurtunities, and not in a way that can be explained by them being poorer, or less clever.

4. ummm, dear god, your saying the irish had it worse than the african americans? uve just described what happened to african americans, not more, and if anything less, and for less tie, early on in america everyone got exploited, it happened, however you later based much of your growth and success on killing, maiming, exploiting, ignoring, and generally maltreating the african american population, for a longer time than the irish population, since they gained equalish rights in the US in about 1850. as for the war, well frankly, that was against people from other countries, its a war, both sides entered willingly knowing the costs, normal people get screwed over, it happened, not right, not wrong, but much harder to deal with than this particular probelm, where affirmative action has had some very real succeses in equalising society, though not fully yet.

and great, no one else gets there own television station, mainly cause most tv in the US is aimed at the white population, being the majority, as for asian tv, well what can you do, im actually quite certain that there wouldnt be much of an outcry at all if someone set up a channel aimed at them.

 

[sauerkraus]

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

I do not have a debt to make up. And the amount of blacks that are "African-American" is like less than 5%. They're all Americans. Just like me.

If there are less minorities getting jobs isn't that just because there are less MINORITIES>?

Affirmative action makes those who benefit from it think that our society owes them a debt (anyone born in the past 40 years doesn't know ****) and they believe they are different. We're all Americans, and it's causing discrimination against whites and Mexicans(lol majority rite?) perpetuating racism by acknowledging they are different.

EDIT: Why would White Entertainment Television be racist? And can you prove that most television is for white Americans?

 

[Lord Monocle Von Banworthy]

Affirmative Action is moribund already. This was a hot topic 15 years ago, but too many people have made the argument the opposition is making in this thread too loudly and it has been steadily eroding ever since. You won, OP. Just give it time to happen.

 

[Lord Monocle Von Banworthy]

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

As the descendent of the kind of poor white cracker sharecroppers Chicken George looked down on in Roots, I am always amused by this oversimplified view that EVERY white person profited from slavery or even other milder forms of discrimination.

We weren't all plantation owners 150 years ago.

 

[demonsaber]

I think in places like the US at the moment you do need a period of affirmative action, because what people regularly regret is that it rarely involves admitting actually poorer candidates, it tends to just mean if your at the same level as someone else but they happen to come from a racial minority they get let in above you. Frankly as most figures will show if you've got to the same stage as many white applicants while being from what is often a poorer, less educated home then you deserve to get in above some middle class white boy who feels he has a god given right to go to college.

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

1. Middle class does not mean easy street. My family is considered middle class and we have lived in some pretty fucked up places and barely scraped enough to survive growing up.

2. It is EVERYONE'S god given right to make it in college and better themselves. I am all for a poorer person getting the government aid that I requested as long as they use it.

3. We do not owe the african americans jack crap. Every society that has ever been large or powerful has been started off slavery of some sort (rome, egypt, england (had some for awhile), russia(they didn't really hire any but their people were basically slaves), the aztec indians had a form of slavery. Hell there are places in africa that still have slavery today. I am not saying it's right or that we should go out and own some people to do our work, but you have to realize that damn near every power used slavery at some point and if you are going to give America shit about it, you damn well better attack other cultures as well.

4. My people (the irish) suffered far worse than slaves did. My people were killed outright, starved to death most of the times when they got to america, suffered racial prejudice far exceeding the african slaves, got their arms ripped off in factories, and worked to death. Where is our payback? How about the Chinese and the Japanese. Go look up what we did to them during World War 2 and look up what we did to them during the "wild west". Paying back one group of people for past fuck ups and showing one group compassion, while at the same time hindering others, is massive bullshit.

On that note, let's just try to make a White Entrainment Television or Asian Entertainment Television (this one could pass) and see how far it goes.

1. look, what I meant about the middle class was that you generally have a more supportive home, and certainly a home more conductive and encouraging to learning.

2. great, yes, im all for it, but while in the US you insist on your stupid flawed bias system you don't get this.

3. okay, woopee, your not the only one's who did a whoopsee, does that mean you shouldn't try and make up for it? Frankly, I think the argument that other people have buggered up, therefore we don't need to try and make up for what we do is a rubbish one. In the US it is still a fact that african americans have much less chance of getting various jobs, or education oppurtunities, and not in a way that can be explained by them being poorer, or less clever.

4. ummm, dear god, your saying the irish had it worse than the african americans? uve just described what happened to african americans, not more, and if anything less, and for less tie, early on in america everyone got exploited, it happened, however you later based much of your growth and success on killing, maiming, exploiting, ignoring, and generally maltreating the african american population, for a longer time than the irish population, since they gained equalish rights in the US in about 1850. as for the war, well frankly, that was against people from other countries, its a war, both sides entered willingly knowing the costs, normal people get screwed over, it happened, not right, not wrong, but much harder to deal with than this particular probelm, where affirmative action has had some very real succeses in equalising society, though not fully yet.

and great, no one else gets there own television station, mainly cause most tv in the US is aimed at the white population, being the majority, as for asian tv, well what can you do, im actually quite certain that there wouldnt be much of an outcry at all if someone set up a channel aimed at them.

Err the irish were repressed more in their own country than the african americans were for far longer. And while on the books we had equal rights, irish people got treated far worse than slaves. Slaves at least had places to live. You want to know a people even more repressed EVERYWHERE than the african americans. Gypsies they were not even granted equal rights until the 80's. Slaves also had better living styles than the irish (until we outlawed slavery) back in the later days of american slavery, slave actually liked their masters pretty well until the master did something to the slave's family. Also there are far more aid programs for african americans than there are "white folk". There are literally hundreds of programs to help out african americans specifically that "white" folk cannot even apply for. And I do not owe african americans shit. My family never owned a single slave and we were poor white trash until the last few generations.

Also all this "we owe them" shit is just furthering the stereotype that they cannot help themselves which is what most of my AA(to lazy to type at the moment just did a 9 hour shift remodeling some rich fucker's house because his dumb ass keeps punching holes in his walls) friends hate more than anything. 90% of my graduating class at my high school were minorities so don't try to tell me they are repressed. I got the same education they do and we all have to deal with the broken system just the same.

 

[demonsaber]

You also have a debt to make up to the african american population, whether you like it or not, and I think this is one of the better ways of doing this, allowing society to start to balance itself out again.

As the descendent of the kind of poor white cracker sharecroppers Chicken George looked down on in Roots, I am always amused by this oversimplified view that EVERY white person profited from slavery or even other milder forms of discrimination.

We weren't all plantation owners 150 years ago.

QFT only about 20% of the white population had slaves. Those that did mainly had about 2-5 slaves. Only about 5% of the population had slave plantations that were large and prosperous with multitudes of slaves.

 

[Cliff_m85]

ok, obviously im taking a topic that was locked, rewording it and trying to have an interesting conversation with the rest of the members of this board about it.


rules: no flaming, trolling, or racial slurs allowed, actually, no "bad" words at all. just keep it civil.


with that in mind, do you feel affirmative action is the right way to minimize "racism" in this society.

i personally feel that affirmative action, and race specific rules does nothing but further spread the issue. when you create a law that targets actions specifically against a race or multiple races, such as the introduction of "hate crimes" and affirmative action, you are doing nothing but spreading the problem.

Affirmative Action is having a young man stand up and say "I can't do this because of my race so I need you're help". It focuses on race and not on ability as well as harbors stereotypes towards individuals such as black people having a different sense of time.