Is chivalry dead?
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You mistake the thrust of my argument, good sir or madam, by equating chivalry with an unbending and overwhelmingly gender-based manner of conduct. There is more to the idea of chivalry than its constituent gestures, which indeed need not of necessity be based wholly on gender in the first place.Uskis said:First off, no, I'm not articulating your point in my post
You contradict yourself a bit in my opinion. You agree that the rigid dichotomy of sex-based gender is an anachronism, but still defend reproducing it through using constructs like "fairer sex". It's not apparently condescending, but it is attributing a certain characteristic to persons based on their sex, which becomes problematic, since the idea of a sex being fairer excludes them from certain actions. Women doing jobs or actions not being associated with what accords to the idea of "fair" will be seen as "not normal". My point is not that you should treat all people "SAME", but that we should move away from treating people on basis of their sex, and what the norm dictates. This will give us a freedom to not have to conform to sex-based gender stereotypes.
That's why I have a beef with chivalry. It's a one-way street with regards to gender. Holding the door is a bad example, because it falls under the category of general politeness, but holding the chair is a great example. Does it work both ways? Can a woman do this as a romantic gesture, or would that be seen as taking away the masculinity of the man? Chivalry is a tired stereotype in my opinion. It is exactly just those small gestures in our society, since no-one links it to all that other obsolete code-of-conduct described by another poster earlier.
Though you are right to point out that the medieval code of conduct no longer adequately describes chivalry, it remains in truth a tired stereotype only in the minds of those seeking attention by way of a crusade that was won some time ago.
Some people like to cling to the idea of chivalry but I hope it is, in its traditional sense, dead.
You should have that kind of respect for everyone regardless of their gender, as opposed to thinking women need to be taken care of in such a manner.
You should have that kind of respect for everyone regardless of their gender, as opposed to thinking women need to be taken care of in such a manner.
Women deserve no more or less respect than any man and I'm not about to give them any more or less because some outdated code of conduct.
If I'm going through a door and someone else is about to, I hold it open. I don't care what gender they are.
If I'm going through a door and someone else is about to, I hold it open. I don't care what gender they are.
I've said it before here, but Chivalry is an outdated idea from a time when women were seen as weak little flowers.
The idea of chivalry makes sexist men think they can somehow act nice to get past the defenses of women and when it doesn't work, they get indignant, and feel that they deserve some sort of cookie for being nice. Being nice should be the standard discourse, not some higher ideal that requires compensation.
Respect people, please, let the concept of chivalry die, because it definitely does more harm then good.
The idea of chivalry makes sexist men think they can somehow act nice to get past the defenses of women and when it doesn't work, they get indignant, and feel that they deserve some sort of cookie for being nice. Being nice should be the standard discourse, not some higher ideal that requires compensation.
Respect people, please, let the concept of chivalry die, because it definitely does more harm then good.
This.Uskis said:
It's also not only about women. If women are the 'fairer sex' then that means men are 'less fair' (whatever the hell that even means) and precludes men from jobs like nannying which would demand 'fair' characteristics. Nothing good comes from sexism. I literally can't even follow the logic of some of the people on this thread.
See, a lot of people have stated this but this appears to miss the point that the anti-chivalry crowd I'm espousing are stating. I'm not arguing that chivalry is bad because it's manipulative; people are all manipulative whether or not they like to admit it. I'm saying that chivalry is bad because it is ideologically worthless; it achieves nothing that can't be done in a way that wouldn't entail enforcing gender roles upon the unwilling. Unless there's some valid justification as to why women deserve different treatment to men (and 'I want to sleep with them' isn't good enough unless you want to sleep with all women) then there's simply no logical reason for chivalry.Altorin said:
I appreciate that your views may differ, I'm not trying to say that mine is 'the only' good reason to dislike chivalry.
Not necessarily overwhelming, but still gendered. If a woman takes out a mans chair, would that make a person less chivalrous because he is being serviced and is not servicing?MarxII said:
Chivalry is obsolete because whatever good parts there was in it can be equally summed up by consideration or politeness, both of which are non-gendered terms. Women and men can be equally polite/considerate, and what can be considered an considerate or polite action is much more open. These terms are not like chivalry rooted in an difference between sexes, chivalry carries an inherent imbalance in power between gender (knight, damsel/fairer sex). In chivalry you do something with politeness in mind because of what gender-roles expect of you. Chivalry is dead because it is archaically gendered and doesn't have a use that can't be described by politeness/consideration.
You should never treat somebody a certain way for something out of their control. As soon as you introduce even a minor difference in expected behavior, you're giving people an excuse to blame all their problems on a group of people.
"Haven't had a date since high school, it's not because I don't know how to socialize, it's because men/women are weird"
Saying that people are different and thus should be treated differently must never go beyond that of a guideline. Women and men aren't that different, they just TEND to be because of society. But everybody's different, you can't have a one size fits all behavior, you have to adapt.
"Haven't had a date since high school, it's not because I don't know how to socialize, it's because men/women are weird"
Saying that people are different and thus should be treated differently must never go beyond that of a guideline. Women and men aren't that different, they just TEND to be because of society. But everybody's different, you can't have a one size fits all behavior, you have to adapt.
Chivalry is not totally extinct ,to quote Chloe Frazier from Uncharted 2: "It's not dead, you just need to ask for it."
What used to be called chivalry is now called common courtesy, and now applies to everyone, not just women.
The breakdown of traditional gender roles killed it.
But if you ask me, being extra nice to a girl you like is a good way to get her to like you. Act like a dick on a first date, see what it gets you.
Though I actually find it quite irritating when a girl assumes I'm holding a door open for her just because I want her or because I assume she's too weak. Politeness is expected of everyone.
Note: I know some women get annoyed with this (ie calling adult women girls) but I use that word because I'm in high school and I'm talking about fellow teenagers, not adults.
The breakdown of traditional gender roles killed it.
But if you ask me, being extra nice to a girl you like is a good way to get her to like you. Act like a dick on a first date, see what it gets you.
Though I actually find it quite irritating when a girl assumes I'm holding a door open for her just because I want her or because I assume she's too weak. Politeness is expected of everyone.
Note: I know some women get annoyed with this (ie calling adult women girls) but I use that word because I'm in high school and I'm talking about fellow teenagers, not adults.
If I have time I generally hold doors for anyone. I pull back chairs for women on dates because its nice. I have a friend who thinks its sexist but I think its just showing that I care.
Discrimination is bad, but sometimes you should treat people different.
Discrimination is bad, but sometimes you should treat people different.
I agree, but women can't have their cake and eat it too.Jack Ebersole said:
If they want men to be polite to them and to be held on a pedestal, then they can't also have equal rights or be viewed the same way in society as men are.
Welcome to the Escapist by the way.
Missed the point. You hold the door open for everyone or noone. But "Chivalry" as the quoted poster expressed it is to hold a door open only for women and not for men. And that is sexist and not nice.TU4AR said:
Being overly nice to women just because they are women is sexist.
This, most will walk past without even seeing you, and when you are tired and don't, you are suddenly noticed and called rude :| But it is still worth it at the end of the day, I find. The few friends and my girlfriend who appreciate are worth b\it so what the hangJohnnyallstar said:
