Is Dark Souls really that good?

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crispskittlez

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Phoenixmgs said:
Most RPGs aren't RPGs.
I.... what? Who are you to dictate that? Especially when the history of RPGs in both electronic and pen & paper stretches back more than 30 years. The focus of RPGs don't have to primarily be on simply roleplaying, and I guess it's a bit of a misnomer for that. The micro gameplay in Dark Souls in action, but the macro gameplay is RPG, and since the macro is the overarching mechanics and gameplay, then an RPG it shall remain.
 

lapan

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monkey_man said:
no, that's not entirely true. you don't backtrack. you reprogress. that's not the same.
It'S almost the same, except it gives you more of an incentive to walk back exactly to where you died while in pure checkpoint games you lost everything since the last save anyways so you might as well do something else.

dark souls does not just reset your checkpoint. IT resets your character except for items and gear, you lose all your money/xp/whatever. You could have farmed for a day straight and have gone to at least 400 different areas, but you die and it's gone. all of it. unless you haul ass through dangerous territory, often in bossland which means HAVING to redo the boss or losing gold. A true checkpoint would mean your stats are saved from that point out. but if you save with a millions souls, and you die, they're all gone. poof. It's just a stupid way to force a players hand.
That's over-exaggerated. It drops your money on the floor. It's compareable to Diablo, only less extreme because in Diablo you also lost your gear.

True, if you never spend any souls and accumulate a million unspend souls 2 deaths might cost you more than a checkpoint death. But then i would also say it's kind of your fault. If you truly needed those souls you would have spend them on stats/upgrading your gear ages ago.

Anyways, we are getting kind of offtopic ;)
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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barbzilla said:
I won't argue that Dark Souls does have a heavy focus on combat, but at what point do you get to make that decision that game A has more going on with the story so it is an rpg, while game B wanted more action.... Dark Souls is an RPG in every sense of the word. There is lore, there is character customization, there are important choices for you to make that drive the narrative, and you have to take a much more active role in the game world than you do in most games considered RPGs. There is no way you can say that Dark Souls isn't an RPG period. At the same time, I won't tell you that Dark Souls isn't a Dungeon Crawler Hack and Slash, because it is (are you starting to understand how genre blending works yet?). Dungeon Crawling is just the type of environment in the game, and hack and slash could be considered to be the base combat system, but that doesn't detract from it being an RPG (also, this game is a bit too tactical for hack and slash, I'd lean more towards action based RPG).
Whatever you do most in a game is what the main genre is (which is why Mirror's Edge is a platformer and not a shooter). Combat takes up the vast majority of Dark Souls. Dark Souls isn't tactical. Dark Souls fans blow everything about the game out of the water. The enemy AI is too poor for the combat to be tactical. Other hack and slash games like DMC and Bayonetta are more tactical than Dark Souls (even something like Heavenly Sword is more tactical). Dark Souls was so disappointing as I heard how hard it was and how great the combat system was, and the game was easy and the combat was nothing special (the game's enemies never force you to use anything more than block and light attack whereas Bayonetta's enemies force you to get good and use the dodge offset mechanic). Everything is so telegraphed in Dark Souls if you pay attention from enemy attacks to traps, I didn't get hit by one trap in all of Sen's Fortress and I wasn't using a guide of any kind.

crispskittlez said:
Phoenixmgs said:
Most RPGs aren't RPGs.
I.... what? Who are you to dictate that? Especially when the history of RPGs in both electronic and pen & paper stretches back more than 30 years. The focus of RPGs don't have to primarily be on simply roleplaying, and I guess it's a bit of a misnomer for that. The micro gameplay in Dark Souls in action, but the macro gameplay is RPG, and since the macro is the overarching mechanics and gameplay, then an RPG it shall remain.
What I meant was most video game RPGs are not RPGs. Pen and paper RPGs are RPGs. But ever since JRPGs came out, any game with a level up system magically became an RPG. If you added in random battles and turn-based combat to The Longest Journey, it wouldn't be an RPG yet JRPGs are exactly that and considered RPGs. Leveling up and customizing combat skills/abilities/spells/etc. is an extension of the core role-playing in pen and paper games. Just having leveling and character customization does not mean anything when the core role-playing isn't present. In Final Fantasy, Cloud will do and say (outside of combat) whatever he is scripted to do and you have no say, it's missing that core role-playing. You can play DnD at max level, never level up ever, and you're still role-playing. Leveling is not a required element of an RPG thus character leveling does not make a game an RPG. Dark Souls' macro gameplay is combat/action. Everything you level up, you do for combat purposes (to get better at combat), that's a telltale sign Dark Souls is not an RPG. The game is completely revolved around combat. Even the majority of the game's NPCs are merchants.
 

barbzilla

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Phoenixmgs said:
If you want to get down to the very base root as you seem to imply. Dark Souls is still a Role Playing Game. You choose a Role, you play that role, and it is a game. So now, tell me how it isn't a RPG.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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barbzilla said:
If you want to get down to the very base root as you seem to imply. Dark Souls is still a Role Playing Game. You choose a Role, you play that role, and it is a game. So now, tell me how it isn't a RPG.
There's a different between playing a role and role-playing because if there wasn't then just about every video game is a role-playing game. Playing the role is just about what every video game is as well. You play as Mario in Mario, you play as Batman in Batman; you don't role-play as them. The key to an RPG is the role-playing. In Super Mario Brothers 2, you choose a role, play that role, and it is a game yet not an RPG. Choosing a role isn't even important to an RPG. You can play DnD with a pre-made character given to you by your DM with no choice whatsoever because after getting that character, you then ROLE-PLAY as that character. In Mass Effect, you are forced to be Commander Shepard, even if the game only had one Commander Shepard (in physical appearance) and only had one class to play as, it is still an RPG because of the role-playing. An RPG already has a core role-playing experience in place and stuff like customizing character appearance, choosing a character class (or playstyle), and leveling are just extensions of the already in place role-playing.
 

Skin

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Phoenixmgs said:
Dark Souls was so disappointing as I heard how hard it was and how great the combat system was, and the game was easy and the combat was nothing special (the game's enemies never force you to use anything more than block and light attack whereas Bayonetta's enemies force you to get good and use the dodge offset mechanic)
There are enemies late in the game that grapple you which can't be blocked. After the Capra Demon, blocking alone isn't going to save you. You need to be able to dodge or figure out some other way to respond to boss attacks (you can't beat 4K or O+S by blocking alone).

Then comes PvP and this is where everything you learnt thus far goes out the window. It is no longer about memorizing the attack patterns and blocking until you get your chance. Other players are unpredictable and now it is up to you to try and counter them on the fly. This is where the combat gets deep. At this point, knowing how your sword swings and how to attack players without being locked on becomes important.

Unfortunately, PvP can be bypassed completely and it is somewhat imbalanced with twinked characters hunting complete noobs. This is the one downfall that DkS had that I hope will be alleviated in DS2.
 

briankoontz

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crispskittlez said:
In Devil Survivor, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In WoW, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In GW2, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In Pokemon, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. And then there are RPGs where stats effect more than just combat, etc. Dark Souls may not fit your definition of RPG, because you're defining it too narrowly/incorrectly.
I'll try to provide some articulation here.

In the traditional understanding of a role-playing game, one is taking on the role of another person (or thing) and "living life in their shoes". The motivation for people to say that Dark Souls is not a role-playing game is that it's not about "walking a day in the shoes of the undead savior of Lordran", it's about the fun of combat and the fun of exploring a beautiful, interesting, and dangerous world. One doesn't explore the CHARACTER of the undead savior in the way a true role-playing game does.

Mechanically, one can certainly claim that Dark Souls is a role-playing game, and check off the checkboxes that have been deemed to define the genre. But Dark Souls does not fit within the *spirit* of a role-playing game, since it's primarily about combat mechanics and exploration (aesthetics), not about character determination.
 

lapan

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I say it depends on the mindset of who plays it. Thanks to almost nothing about your character being predefined you have enourmous freedom to act out a character on your own. On the other hand if you just play the game it isn't much of an RPG

Anyways, the discussion is rather pointless thanks to everyone thinking differently about the definition of RPGs and also because there already is another thread about that exact same question.
 

Bombiz

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briankoontz said:
crispskittlez said:
In Devil Survivor, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In WoW, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In GW2, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In Pokemon, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. And then there are RPGs where stats effect more than just combat, etc. Dark Souls may not fit your definition of RPG, because you're defining it too narrowly/incorrectly.
I'll try to provide some articulation here.

In the traditional understanding of a role-playing game, one is taking on the role of another person (or thing) and "living life in their shoes". The motivation for people to say that Dark Souls is not a role-playing game is that it's not about "walking a day in the shoes of the undead savior of Lordran", it's about the fun of combat and the fun of exploring a beautiful, interesting, and dangerous world. One doesn't explore the CHARACTER of the undead savior in the way a true role-playing game does.

Mechanically, one can certainly claim that Dark Souls is a role-playing game, and check off the checkboxes that have been deemed to define the genre. But Dark Souls does not fit within the *spirit* of a role-playing game, since it's primarily about combat mechanics and exploration (aesthetics), not about character determination.
that's quite the definition of RPG you have there. however you run into the problem that by that definition Pokemon, WoW , and GW2 aren't "true" RPG's also. witch is perfectly fine i mean you can have these games exist and not be RPG's.
 

barbzilla

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Phoenixmgs said:
barbzilla said:
If you want to get down to the very base root as you seem to imply. Dark Souls is still a Role Playing Game. You choose a Role, you play that role, and it is a game. So now, tell me how it isn't a RPG.
There's a different between playing a role and role-playing because if there wasn't then just about every video game is a role-playing game. Playing the role is just about what every video game is as well. You play as Mario in Mario, you play as Batman in Batman; you don't role-play as them. The key to an RPG is the role-playing. In Super Mario Brothers 2, you choose a role, play that role, and it is a game yet not an RPG. Choosing a role isn't even important to an RPG. You can play DnD with a pre-made character given to you by your DM with no choice whatsoever because after getting that character, you then ROLE-PLAY as that character. In Mass Effect, you are forced to be Commander Shepard, even if the game only had one Commander Shepard (in physical appearance) and only had one class to play as, it is still an RPG because of the role-playing. An RPG already has a core role-playing experience in place and stuff like customizing character appearance, choosing a character class (or playstyle), and leveling are just extensions of the already in place role-playing.

Yet all of the things you mention are present in Dark Souls, so please tell me how Dark Souls isn't roleplaying. I have yet to see you refute one single point anyone makes, you just go on to talk about mass effect every time, and how that is role-playing.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Skin said:
There are enemies late in the game that grapple you which can't be blocked. After the Capra Demon, blocking alone isn't going to save you. You need to be able to dodge or figure out some other way to respond to boss attacks (you can't beat 4K or O+S by blocking alone).

Then comes PvP and this is where everything you learnt thus far goes out the window. It is no longer about memorizing the attack patterns and blocking until you get your chance. Other players are unpredictable and now it is up to you to try and counter them on the fly. This is where the combat gets deep. At this point, knowing how your sword swings and how to attack players without being locked on becomes important.

Unfortunately, PvP can be bypassed completely and it is somewhat imbalanced with twinked characters hunting complete noobs. This is the one downfall that DkS had that I hope will be alleviated in DS2.
I beat 4K so easy, I never had more than 1K out at a time. O+S I played in co-op. The problem is boss battles shouldn't be the only challenge in the game. I don't care about PvP in any game unless it's balanced and DkS is not balanced so I didn't even attempt to get into it plus it was laggy. Plus, I don't think the battle system is nearly that good as it is reliant on a lock-on system so you can't block properly unless locked-on because you can't backpedal or strafe with a shield up and not locked-on. I expect when a game is said to be hard that it is hard (or at least a challenge) but Dark Souls was easier than most games I've played on PS3. And, I shouldn't have to do PvP to get a challenge or for the combat system to start showing depth.

barbzilla said:
Phoenixmgs said:
barbzilla said:
If you want to get down to the very base root as you seem to imply. Dark Souls is still a Role Playing Game. You choose a Role, you play that role, and it is a game. So now, tell me how it isn't a RPG.
There's a different between playing a role and role-playing because if there wasn't then just about every video game is a role-playing game. Playing the role is just about what every video game is as well. You play as Mario in Mario, you play as Batman in Batman; you don't role-play as them. The key to an RPG is the role-playing. In Super Mario Brothers 2, you choose a role, play that role, and it is a game yet not an RPG. Choosing a role isn't even important to an RPG. You can play DnD with a pre-made character given to you by your DM with no choice whatsoever because after getting that character, you then ROLE-PLAY as that character. In Mass Effect, you are forced to be Commander Shepard, even if the game only had one Commander Shepard (in physical appearance) and only had one class to play as, it is still an RPG because of the role-playing. An RPG already has a core role-playing experience in place and stuff like customizing character appearance, choosing a character class (or playstyle), and leveling are just extensions of the already in place role-playing.

Yet all of the things you mention are present in Dark Souls, so please tell me how Dark Souls isn't roleplaying. I have yet to see you refute one single point anyone makes, you just go on to talk about mass effect every time, and how that is role-playing.
Dark Souls doesn't have that "core" role-playing I've been talking about this whole time. Leveling and character customization are just extensions and not role-playing in and of themselves. You can take leveling and character customization out of DnD and it's still an RPG through and through. You don't build your character's character, you just build them stat-wise and appearance-wise.
 

barbzilla

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Phoenixmgs said:
Okay, now I get where you are coming from, and why I've had such an issue seeing it. I did build a character, a background, and a mythos for my character. So for me it was a true role-playing experience. So, just because you didn't bother doing that, it wasn't a Role-Playing experience for you. Thank you for breaking that down for me finally, and we can now agree to disagree based off of our own experiences. Cheers m8!
 

renegade7

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I would liken Dark Souls to essentially being Metroid with swords.

There is a heavy exploration element. You're expected to figure out where to go for yourself...it doesn't hold your hand and give quest markers or extremely detailed plot instructions.

The story is a little light. Also like Metroid Prime, you can play the game from start to finish and ignore most of the story, you'll only really get into it if you look around. But the story that is there is fantastic, once you've found it.

My greatest complaint is the controls. 99% of the time, they work perfectly...and then there's that one instance where they just fuck up royally. Now, that does happen with a lot of games, but combined with Dark Souls' difficulty level it made for some really frustrating moments. I wouldn't pass the game over from this single complaint though.

As for the difficulty level, yet, it's harsh, but it's fair, and it's actually really rewarding. It's not hard in that you need perfect technical skills in regards to playing the game, more like you just need to be extremely careful about how you go about doing things. Think ahead and tread lightly, basically. Also, be ready to play dirty: dodging so that enemies you're fighting fall off ledges is a great way to instantly kill tough enemies, for instance.

Finally, and this is just a piece of advice. When you start, you'll be given a selection of items to start the game with. Take the Master Key, which basically is a low-level key that is not consumed upon use, early on, it will unlock all kinds of shortcuts and treasure rooms.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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barbzilla said:
Okay, now I get where you are coming from, and why I've had such an issue seeing it. I did build a character, a background, and a mythos for my character. So for me it was a true role-playing experience. So, just because you didn't bother doing that, it wasn't a Role-Playing experience for you. Thank you for breaking that down for me finally, and we can now agree to disagree based off of our own experiences. Cheers m8!
But you can go out of your way and create a background and mythos for characters in most games if you want to. That doesn't make the game an RPG. You can do the same for "the guy" in GTA3 and GTA3 is not at all an RPG.
 

crispskittlez

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Phoenixmgs said:
barbzilla said:
Okay, now I get where you are coming from, and why I've had such an issue seeing it. I did build a character, a background, and a mythos for my character. So for me it was a true role-playing experience. So, just because you didn't bother doing that, it wasn't a Role-Playing experience for you. Thank you for breaking that down for me finally, and we can now agree to disagree based off of our own experiences. Cheers m8!
But you can go out of your way and create a background and mythos for characters in most games if you want to. That doesn't make the game an RPG. You can do the same for "the guy" in GTA3 and GTA3 is not at all an RPG.
But literal role-playing is not what defines an RPG, and yes, it is a misnomer for that.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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crispskittlez said:
Phoenixmgs said:
barbzilla said:
Okay, now I get where you are coming from, and why I've had such an issue seeing it. I did build a character, a background, and a mythos for my character. So for me it was a true role-playing experience. So, just because you didn't bother doing that, it wasn't a Role-Playing experience for you. Thank you for breaking that down for me finally, and we can now agree to disagree based off of our own experiences. Cheers m8!
But you can go out of your way and create a background and mythos for characters in most games if you want to. That doesn't make the game an RPG. You can do the same for "the guy" in GTA3 and GTA3 is not at all an RPG.
But literal role-playing is not what defines an RPG, and yes, it is a misnomer for that.
Yeah, it pretty much is, role-playing defined an RPG all the way up until video games. Live-action and tabletop RPGs are all about the role-playing.
 

Ikasury

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its a game about 'learning'... like learning to NOT jump at that dragon... learning NOT to charge that minotaur... and most importantly LOOK WHERE YOU'RE STEPPING!! as falling is the number 1 way to die in that game, just like its predecessor :3

its the kind of game, like Demon's Souls, where even if you DIE CONSTANTLY usually for extremely frustratingly STUPID REASONS, and after you've thrown your controller through a wall, leave it alone and vow to never play it again...

you do.

why? who knows! there's just something about the Souls' series that makes you want to play it in your lapses of sanity, because when you finally beat that JERK-SONVABITCH-NERFING-FLAMELURKER!! you feel utterly, truly, justified and satisfied!! like you really accomplished something hard and persevered... plus everything is just interesting to see, its all pretty, despite all the obvious DEATH around you... and i dunno, i think the fact the GAME knows it doesn't need you, you don't 'have' to beat it, you don't 'have' to play it, but it'll be there... always just there... seeping into you're brain, knowing that like the wondering souls of the Nexus and Lordran... you'll come back eventually... you always come back...

XD
 

crispskittlez

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Phoenixmgs said:
Yeah, it pretty much is, role-playing defined an RPG all the way up until video games. Live-action and tabletop RPGs are all about the role-playing.
Okay, well, I think that brings finality to our whole argument right there. You gave me some stuff to think about, and I enjoyed having this argument/discussion with you.
 

sonofliber

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second coming of jesus most people make it out to be, NO
Overrated as **** by its fans, Hell Yes
good game? yes.
 

Lovely Mixture

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I personally consider Dark Souls to be the best game I have ever played. Emphasis on my personal views: the combat feels good, the art is beautiful, the story is masterfully told, the environments and level design work together.

But the difficulty is blown way out of proportion, it's not a hard game, it just requires basic caution.

On the other side.
Some parts are clearly buggy and unfinished, which might bother some people. Some things are poorly explained, but I don't think anything in the game is poorly designed except some collision detection. And while I had no problems with the camera, I've heard a lot of people complain about it.

It's not a game for everyone though, not many games are.

sonofliber said:
second coming of jesus most people make it out to be, NO
Overrated as **** by its fans, Hell Yes
good game? yes.
The overrated argument always bothers me cause it usually implies bad things about the subject, so thank you for clarifying.