Is Faith a Virtue?

[Agayek]

You are complaining about religion, because of people?

I'll complain about nuclear energy, because people in Chernobyl made a mistake. And I will not be reasoned with.

I'm not complaining about religion. If you wish to believe in a higher power, great. I fully support any and all forms of religion that don't involve inflicting harm on uninvolved people.

What I'm complaining about is faith. Faith removes the human ability to question, and without that, we can no longer improve. I don't give a rat's ass about what you or anyone else believes. What I do care about is if you are not willing to question those beliefs. I do my best to question everything I believe in whenever new information presents itself. Your beliefs cannot be rigid, or there is no room for improvement, and then we stagnate. And stagnation leads to death.

Why did you quote me? Also, it's not just the Catholic Church. All major religions (except for perhaps Buddhism) promote faith. If they didn't, they would stop having followers not be a major religion.

Very true, all religions support faith in their belief system. I simply pointed out the Catholic Church because they are the most prominent in Western culture, which the vast majority of Escapist users are, and the faith of its constituents has been the most widely abused, as far as I know.

And to answer your question, I quoted you because it was a semi-convenient launch point for the topic, and I was too lazy to go back through the rest of the posts to find a more relevant one.

 

[Agayek]

So, you are saying you live according to the simple "carpe diem", hedonistic life without a purpose just to eat, sleep, mate and... basically, nothing better than a common cat.

What's wrong with that?

What if I have no purpose in my life except just to get by and enjoy myself? Why is that a bad thing? I am not harming anyone by doing so, nor am I acting against anyone's interests.

What I'm trying, probably badly, to ask, is why does life need a purpose? Why is it that we all must be part of some greater cosmic whole?

 

[bjj hero]

I feel sorry for all the empty, hollow lives that are pretty much pointless. Why live life, if you just die? This is the path to nihlism.

I only have one short chance at life so I'm going to live it to its fullest and do what I can to make it a better experience for the ones I care about. I will enjoy my lunch today. Life is good. Hedonistic? So what?

Faith isn't a virtue. Faith is to believe what you ahave been told and not question it. Thank you those without it They are the reason we've progressed and learned throughout the ages and no longer believe the earth is the centre of the universe or that diseases are curses or divine punishments

 

[Abedeus]

snip

What if someone just has faith. He experienced something in his life, he started believing in Higher Power, this makes him grateful and wants to help people. How is this not a virtue?

So, you are saying you live according to the simple "carpe diem", hedonistic life without a purpose just to eat, sleep, mate and... basically, nothing better than a common cat.

What's wrong with that?

What if I have no purpose in my life except just to get by and enjoy myself? Why is that a bad thing? I am not harming anyone by doing so, nor am I acting against anyone's interests.

What I'm trying, probably badly, to ask, is why does life need a purpose? Why is it that we all must be part of some greater cosmic whole?

If you are not doing anything useful, you are useless to the world and society. You are not a productive member of it.

You are complaining about religion, because of people?

I'll complain about nuclear energy, because people in Chernobyl made a mistake. And I will not be reasoned with.

I'm not complaining about religion. If you wish to believe in a higher power, great. I fully support any and all forms of religion that don't involve inflicting harm on uninvolved people.

What I'm complaining about is faith. Faith removes the human ability to question, and without that, we can no longer improve. I don't give a rat's ass about what you or anyone else believes. What I do care about is if you are not willing to question those beliefs. I do my best to question everything I believe in whenever new information presents itself. Your beliefs cannot be rigid, or there is no room for improvement, and then we stagnate. And stagnation leads to death.

Because I forgot that every scientist in the history of mankind was an atheist. NOT.

Just because you have faith in something doesn't mean you are a puppet. Same as having faith doesn't make you a slave, it's the same with trusting in science doesn't make you a sinner or whatever.


I just wish people could learn to take the best from both worlds. But then atheists jump in and say "ZOMG NO YOU IDIOT HAHA" and we're back to square one.


Why is this thread still open?

 

[Seanchaidh]

Faith is a virtue, it gives people hope, and i gives them a feeling that their life is meaningful. I personally don't need faith, but thats just me.

That sounds more like a vice to me.

Believe REAL hard that you won't die when you jump off a building and see how far you make it to the ground before you realize God's not answering your prayers.

There is faith, and there is idiocity.

Faith in itself has no intrinsic value.
It depends on what you do with this faith, that makes you "good" or "bad" and thus turns faith into a virtue or a failing.

Examples?
A faithful man who goes to the homeless shelter to help the needy.
Or a faithful man who physically assaults a gay man for no other reason that that man's homosexuality.


Faith itself does not provide any form of moral high ground, it's what you decide to do with faith (just as it is with any other form of conviction you might hold) that determines that.

Again, faith is a double-edged sword. Sometimes people THINK they have faith, but if they persecute someone just for his lifestyle (that doesn't hurt anyone, mind you) they are not really faithful at all.

Faith is a virtue, it gives people hope, and i gives them a feeling that their life is meaningful. I personally don't need faith, but thats just me.

We should not have to accept completely unproven claims to get that stuff.

Ah, yes, truer words cannot be spoken. But for some of us there will always be a very important difference between 'what we should' and 'what we actually need'.

I feel sorry for anyone who needs faith.

I feel sorry for all the empty, hollow lives that are pretty much pointless. Why live life, if you just die? This is the path to nihlism.

Because this is the only one you get. It isn't the path to nihilism, it's the path to understanding (which sometimes detours through nihilism.) But rather than looking elsewhere, look around you right now. Is this not all worth it? Do you really need to say that some guy is responsible for it, and for you, for you to find meaning and not be hollow?

It strikes me as rather strange that someone would ask why you would live a life if only to die; why would you not live a life that would eventually end in death? Do you need to feel eternal to feel worthwhile? Do you really not find wonder and beauty and love and all that is good and interesting enough in this small corner of the universe? Is it seriously alleged that lives are worthless and hollow without something after? Or without the purposes of some other guy? It is a common thought that seems to me to be a very weak rationalization of the idea that one best lives his life for God. Why not live for oneself? One's friends? One's family? One's community? One's country? Any of these will do and have done. The hollowest life is to live for a lie. That is why real, true faith is perhaps the saddest self-inflicted wound humanity has yet to bear.

 

[bodyklok]

I would say no, but that's just me.

I guess it really depends on what you think qualifies as a virtue or not, to me, a virtue is something that helps people get along and promotes social harmony. In this sense faith can be a great virtue, at the same time I don't think any thing which can be greatly detrimental is a virtue, and faith, only in the most extreme circumstances, can harm people.

So to me, it's only a virtue if: it promotes social harmony, and it doesn't hurt anyone.

 

[bjj hero]

snip

What if someone just has faith. He experienced something in his life, he started believing in Higher Power, this makes him grateful and wants to help people. How is this not a virtue?

Then charity and compassion are the virtues, faith has nothing to do with it.

What if I have no purpose in my life except just to get by and enjoy myself? Why is that a bad thing? I am not harming anyone by doing so, nor am I acting against anyone's interests.

What I'm trying, probably badly, to ask, is why does life need a purpose? Why is it that we all must be part of some greater cosmic whole?

If you are not doing anything useful, you are useless to the world and society. You are not a productive member of it.

How is believing in a higher power anything "useful" to society or the world? By taking part he is doing something "useful". He is a consumer, so pays the wages of others. That is in the unlikely event he does nothing else.

Because I forgot that every scientist in the history of mankind was an atheist. NOT.

Just because you have faith in something doesn't mean you are a puppet. Same as having faith doesn't make you a slave, it's the same with trusting in science doesn't make you a sinner or whatever.

You'll find most modern scienists are. In the past it wasn't socially acceptable, or even safe to admit to being a none believer. Other times joining the clergy was the only way to have enough free time to experiment. Sort of like a modern day research grant. In the past 150 years or so since evolution has been tabled:

-disclaimer- *I feel* -disclaimer- god has seemed less probable due to mounting evidence pointing in the godless direction on big things thought untouchable like how we got here.

It has clashed with faith to the point where a proportion of faithful don't want evolution taught to children. Other examples are stem cell research which looks promising, the faithful are against that, contraception to help fight AIDS in Africa... I could go on. It might not be your faith or anyone elses here holding us back but the fact that faith is causing this sort of harm stops it from being virtuous IMHO. It's people not questioning what they have been taught holding us back. It's encouraged in science, thats how new theories are made and things move on.

 

[MajoraPersona]

The thing I dislike about the main interpretation of faith is that it defers to a being who insists we all play nice. People are not all hugs and rainbows by nature, but to insist that there is another being who wishes for such a thing is somewhat frightening. It's giving your conscience a mind of its own. Deities represent aspects of life that people have no control over, and to rely on 'faith' in them is somewhat like being unable to take care of yourself.

Everyone needs help, of course; few people can truly do everything they need to without others there to assist or guide them. I find it much easier to believe that everyone is more good than evil, and let them make their choices. Choosing to put faith in something aside from oneself is not what I have chosen, but far be it from me to force my views on another.

Sincerely,

The Antichrist MajoraPersona

 

[Abedeus]

Eh. This is why I no longer want to participate in such discussions.

3 or 4 people try to shut you up, then you grow tired of it after 4 or 5 threads.

Whatever, I don't care, you won't convince me, I won't convince you.

 

[bjj hero]

Eh. This is why I no longer want to participate in such discussions.

3 or 4 people try to shut you up, then you grow tired of it after 4 or 5 threads.

Whatever, I don't care, you won't convince me, I won't convince you.

I thought we were having a discussion. At no point have I said to shut up or used abusive language.

 

[bluepilot]

Is this just religious faith?

What about faith in people? Surely it cannot be a bad thing to want to believe the best in someone, even when you are wrong.

I think that faith is a virtue, because it requires effort, and even if you are likely to be wrong or get hurt you can have faith. Therefore it is a selfless act.

Faith is a virtue because it is much easier to be cynic.

 

[Abedeus]

Eh. This is why I no longer want to participate in such discussions.

3 or 4 people try to shut you up, then you grow tired of it after 4 or 5 threads.

Whatever, I don't care, you won't convince me, I won't convince you.

I thought we were having a discussion. At no point have I said to shut up or used abusive language.

Read again. I didn't say people say to shut up, I said that people try to shut you up.

 

[bjj hero]

Eh. This is why I no longer want to participate in such discussions.

3 or 4 people try to shut you up, then you grow tired of it after 4 or 5 threads.

Whatever, I don't care, you won't convince me, I won't convince you.

I thought we were having a discussion. At no point have I said to shut up or used abusive language.

Read again. I didn't say people say to shut up, I said that people try to shut you up.

At no point have I tried to shut you up. That is not what discussion is about.

 

[Agayek]

Because I forgot that every scientist in the history of mankind was an atheist. NOT.

Just because you have faith in something doesn't mean you are a puppet. Same as having faith doesn't make you a slave, it's the same with trusting in science doesn't make you a sinner or whatever.


I just wish people could learn to take the best from both worlds. But then atheists jump in and say "ZOMG NO YOU IDIOT HAHA" and we're back to square one.

Faith, by its very nature, denies the ability to question.

I'm not arguing against believing in a higher power, or anything else you want to believe in. Personally, I think everyone should just shut the fuck up about it, because there's no way to be sure either way. What I'm arguing against is the blind faith many, many people seem to possess. And a lot of it is not religious.

All I'm trying to say is that every single person must question every single thing, every single moment of their lives. It's the only way to continuously improve oneself. If you are not willing to question your beliefs, you are nothing more than a slave to them, and that is the worst tragedy I can imagine.

Edit:

If you are not doing anything useful, you are useless to the world and society. You are not a productive member of it.

Not having a purpose in life is not the same as not doing anything. Just because there's no "greater goal" does not mean one does not do anything useful. You do not need a reason to contribute to society. The purpose of life, as I see it, is to enjoy life. That's fairly hard to do when you do nothing.