Is Free Will an illusion?
- Thread starter D_987
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I can see why you think that, but actually you've got it the wrong way around.D_987 said:
Consciousness, the "voice in your head" if you like, just reports the results of your real, hidden, mind. This is so it can 'go into memory'.
This hidden mind, consists of many layers and aspects, you could call it the Subconscious, but what most regard as the Subconscious is just a deep layer of the mind which yields urges, etc. so the terminology is not a perfect fit.
The aspects of the hidden mind operate 'in parallel', giving you "many minds". The layers then filter out the dominant voice from this mess and you get the impression that the thoughts you are thinking are newly, decisively, created when in fact they lag behind.
You cannot use determinism against a process that exhibits non-linear dynamics (i.e. chaos theory) and which is based in part on quantum indeterminacy - i.e. if you cannot observe the initial conditions and even if you could some predictions would succumb to 'the butterfly effect' and diverge into inaccuracy.
I still didn't read the OP, but I hope that stimulates the discussion.
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say, here? To clear up the chance of misinterpretation, I've been defining "conscious thought" as the process of thinking things in words, and "subconscious thought" as those vague, wordless concepts that appear, epiphany-style, from your brain. Since words are the only thoughts we have actual, conscious control over, I think that this is the intended definition?D_987 said:
Conscious thought is useful for conveying our intentions, feelings, and decisions to others. It allows us to put our emotions into words; internally, it has little use. This is not a complicated concept. If conscious thought is internal language, and the purpose of language is communication with others, the reason that we interpret our feelings with language would be..?
The only way to determine if there is free will would be to competely understand the brain, to competely understand the brain you would have to understand every electron, proton and atom in the brain and how they react with one each other. To understand that PERFECTLY you would have to understand every force that may interact or change these reactions which could be anything from solar flares, electromantic waves and any other force that could alter the outcome no matter how small the change(even if the change was like 10 to the power of
-100000000000000000). Then you would have to determine what affects these forces so that you know how it affects those forces. This cycle would continue until we came to a force beyond our understanding(it would be equal to explaining Nuclear Physics to a cockroach... we just couldn't fathom it). At that point we would have to accept the fact that things are truely random chance and can't be completely figured out.
-100000000000000000). Then you would have to determine what affects these forces so that you know how it affects those forces. This cycle would continue until we came to a force beyond our understanding(it would be equal to explaining Nuclear Physics to a cockroach... we just couldn't fathom it). At that point we would have to accept the fact that things are truely random chance and can't be completely figured out.
Actually if you look at Freud's model of consciousness he's already stated that our conscious is only a very small portion of our brain. He compared our consciousness to tip of an iceburg. The part above the ocean is what we consciously precieve wheras the other 90% of the iceburg is our unconscious. Out actions are dictated by our id and superego which make up this unconscious. Our Id is our most base desires. (think the devil on your shoulder) and the super ego is a sort of code of ethics (the angel) Freud considered the Id to be the strongest, the superego a far second and the ego just under that.
The ego is our sort of free will. It tries to form a compromise between the base desires of the id and the super morals of the superego. It is the voluntary control you exert of yourself.
Now here's the intresting part. Our actions as stated by the experimenters. were are made long before we consiously thought them. But only because our working memory isn't big enough to contain all of the knowledge required to make that choice. (I believe it only has a memory span of about 30 seconds) Our unconscious however, is. It's also where all of our past experiences are stored, which influences our choices. It's where our emotions come from as well. Guilt, anger, joy, all of it.
Please note that some of this is from freud and some of his theories I completely disagree with. Also it's been a few months since I had psychology so some of my facts could easily be wrong.
As for my opinion. I believe that free will does exist. But it is heavily influenced by our unconscious.
The ego is our sort of free will. It tries to form a compromise between the base desires of the id and the super morals of the superego. It is the voluntary control you exert of yourself.
Now here's the intresting part. Our actions as stated by the experimenters. were are made long before we consiously thought them. But only because our working memory isn't big enough to contain all of the knowledge required to make that choice. (I believe it only has a memory span of about 30 seconds) Our unconscious however, is. It's also where all of our past experiences are stored, which influences our choices. It's where our emotions come from as well. Guilt, anger, joy, all of it.
Please note that some of this is from freud and some of his theories I completely disagree with. Also it's been a few months since I had psychology so some of my facts could easily be wrong.
As for my opinion. I believe that free will does exist. But it is heavily influenced by our unconscious.
Lets do a simple test here:
step 1: write down an action on a paper thet you will do in 5 minutes
(for an example, do the dishes or walk the dog.)
step 2: Wait 5 minutes and then do something else
(for an example, watch a youtube clip or take a bath.)
step 3: whatever you did ,i decided for you because i control your will.
step 4: think for yourself: no he don´t.
Point proven ,he he
step 1: write down an action on a paper thet you will do in 5 minutes
(for an example, do the dishes or walk the dog.)
step 2: Wait 5 minutes and then do something else
(for an example, watch a youtube clip or take a bath.)
step 3: whatever you did ,i decided for you because i control your will.
step 4: think for yourself: no he don´t.
Point proven ,he he
I believe the body is the slave to the mind, and that we are our minds. We have so much control over things, and we don't even know how. Take muscle movement, for example. We control it, but we don't have a clue how. All we know is, we want to do it, we know we want to do it... So we just, do it.
This is what I think happens with our thoughts. And I believe we have the control, but we just don't know how we are specifically controlling our own free will and thoughs.
This is what I think happens with our thoughts. And I believe we have the control, but we just don't know how we are specifically controlling our own free will and thoughs.
Free will does exist. What you do with it has already been determined by the various physical interactions that have effected you throughout the history of the universe.
Arguing that because of the quantifiable nature of the processes that lead to you making decisions you have no free will is like saying that the Matrix has you. It might, but as long as you don't know there's no point wasting what probably is your real life.
Arguing that because of the quantifiable nature of the processes that lead to you making decisions you have no free will is like saying that the Matrix has you. It might, but as long as you don't know there's no point wasting what probably is your real life.
When you consider that we are basically organized bundles of molecules being formed and broken through constant chemical reactions, along with electrical impulses jumping through the nervous system controlling our every thought and action.... It's crazy. The only true identity I have is composed of a 5-ish pound lump of tissue. That's me in there. The rest is just a shell....fullmetalangel said:
That's the scariest thing. We really don't understand fully how our brains work.fullmetalangel said:
And even more mind-blowing. Look around you. Look at your house, your computer, your car, your game console, a lamp, a photograph or painting or drawing. Anything and everything you use or handle in your daily life came out of somebody's brain. Somebody thought it up and made it. It's so ridiculous to think about.
Think about how many people you see on a daily basis and then never see again, ever? I live about 40 minutes from O'Hare Airport in Chicagoland, IL. Over 200,000 passengers move through that airport every single day, and O'Hare is an international airport, so those people are from literally everywhere in the world. It's amazing.
Libet was probably the most grounded I think. We will always have free will to decide. So what stuff pops out of our brains unconciously a few seconds before the machines pick it up. This could mean any number of things, none of which I believe have anything to do with free will. What if the machines are just slow. Man, scientists will feel like dicks if they found out that later on. Its been said for ages the brain is the fastest computer ever.
Reactions to things will happen, but not because were drones, but cause we have built in defence mechanizims. you close your eyes instinctively when somethings gonna shoot into it.
none of this is really nothing new, but I find it amazing that somehow free will has become the victim in it.
A few years ago I saw a doco of people with wires and stuff in their heads, playing a simple game of pong or something, The paddle was moving a few seconds before they thought it to move in the right direction. thats pretty amazing. But I still don't see how this destroys the "illusion" of free will.
If we were just a little man or whatever, mearly watching the show, and we let our reactions do everything. chances are we would sit there in a stationary position waiting for our reactions to do something, then just decide to screw that idea and scream out when you see a Z because thats a cool letter.
At the end of the day, our brains are so fuckin awesome we would waste pong a few seconds before it knew it lost.
Reactions to things will happen, but not because were drones, but cause we have built in defence mechanizims. you close your eyes instinctively when somethings gonna shoot into it.
none of this is really nothing new, but I find it amazing that somehow free will has become the victim in it.
A few years ago I saw a doco of people with wires and stuff in their heads, playing a simple game of pong or something, The paddle was moving a few seconds before they thought it to move in the right direction. thats pretty amazing. But I still don't see how this destroys the "illusion" of free will.
If we were just a little man or whatever, mearly watching the show, and we let our reactions do everything. chances are we would sit there in a stationary position waiting for our reactions to do something, then just decide to screw that idea and scream out when you see a Z because thats a cool letter.
At the end of the day, our brains are so fuckin awesome we would waste pong a few seconds before it knew it lost.
Yeah, why kill yourself when you can just take some mushrooms and drop out of reality for a while, in a state of mind that just lets you appreciate the beauty and wonder of everything. It's fun. Hahah.fullmetalangel said:
This is probably a better arguement of free will or not. At least the two arguements are in the same field. Lol. I have heard this one or not. And it really comes down to the same answer you would give to whether or not theres a God. "You don't know, and you can scientificly prove jack, so lets just keep it as an opinion thing."smokeybearsb said:
Funny thing, We talked a hell of a lot about predestination at this bible study thing we were doing last year. Me and my mate would groan every time we heard it brought up (by the same girls, who were never satisfied with the answers, or didn't understand them, so had to go through the whole process again. groan.)
I didn't read anything other than parts of the first post, but does it really matter if free will is just an illusion?
I have read the first article and couldn't find a convincing argument against free will in that brain scan experiment.
I'm not going to add a complete answer until I know the proper context of the question in the title.
This is because whenever I read "free will" I immediately think of a religious(mostly christian) reasoning for it.(my own fault, I've spent too much time on FSTDT and the Gamefaqs Religion board)
I have read the first article and couldn't find a convincing argument against free will in that brain scan experiment.
I'm not going to add a complete answer until I know the proper context of the question in the title.
This is because whenever I read "free will" I immediately think of a religious(mostly christian) reasoning for it.(my own fault, I've spent too much time on FSTDT and the Gamefaqs Religion board)