Not that I wan't to start anything but why cant vegans talk to you about there pets? I'm vegan I have the exact same idea as you, I think it's fucked up when pets get neutered or have their wings clipped.ShaqLevick said:
Is it immoral to keep pets?
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Looking through the posts I cant help but notice a bit of contradiction, animals arn't intelligent enough to under stand they are pets, but they do have the mental capacity to love. To me it just seams that people arn't actually thinking about the question and are imediatly saying 'no' because they love their pets and don't like the idea that their pet might not be happy with the situation.
not having a go or anything just think the question is worth a bit more thought, especially as everyone seems so quick to negate the OP's opinion because they're not and expert on the matter and yet the extent of a lot of peoples qualification seems to be that they owned a pet at some point.
Again not having a go but it all just reminds me of this,
"He promised you order, he promised you peace and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient, consent"
not having a go or anything just think the question is worth a bit more thought, especially as everyone seems so quick to negate the OP's opinion because they're not and expert on the matter and yet the extent of a lot of peoples qualification seems to be that they owned a pet at some point.
Again not having a go but it all just reminds me of this,
"He promised you order, he promised you peace and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient, consent"
Their lives are often improved because we've systematically bred them to be unable to exist without us. My Mother has an adorable Shih-Tzu that I love dearly. If humanity didn't exist, then that tiny thing wouldn't either. We've genetically de-fanged it, and otherwise whatever species it started as long long ago, could have a fighting chance in the wild.Iron Criterion said:/thread.Daystar Clarion said:I mean this in the nicest way possible.
Dogs, cats and other pets are too stupid to know that they're pets.
Also, my dog seems very happy with her life.
Better food than in the wild, better healthcare than in the wild, better beds than in the wild.
The wild seems kind of lame
Animals are different from Humans. Their lives are often improved by them becoming a pet (assuming they have responsible, loving owners) whereas Humans are supposedly intelligent creatures who can think for and look after themselves; to take that away from us would make us prisoners.
Yes, we would be prisoners, but the only thing the above paragraph doesn't detail is the hundreds/thousands of generations humans would be bred through, constantly trying to get a creature genetically predisposed to being a 'good human' and unable to exist as we do now, and only really exist with aide from the aliens.
The OP has real validity. We keep, and in some cases make, species of animals for the sheer purpose of playing with it. Species should not be relegated to that.
Shelter, human affection, de-lousing. Just because you have one cat that in some small way probes the rule, doesn't mean the species as a whole isn't more dependent than it would have been without our intervention. My cat specifically comes up and licks/"Grooms" me because if she shows affection to me, its normally returned with neck scratchins.Sexy Devil said:
I understand the way some people view this but as for me I believe I was a good pe owner until my rat died and I think he had a great life, he was at least 2 hours everyday outsid eof his cage running around the whole house and often after that went back to my room to sleep in his favorite spot. Me and mom made him food that was not secondary, we cooked pasta and meat, boiled eggs, gave him sugarfree cereal etc and treated him like a part of family only in his cage during night (which he occasionally escaped from) and when we were away.
But there are people who harrass their "pets" just like people who hit their own children and these people should not be allowed to keep pets just like some people aren't fit to be parents.
But there are people who harrass their "pets" just like people who hit their own children and these people should not be allowed to keep pets just like some people aren't fit to be parents.
A friend of mine adopted a cat from a rescue centre.
At the time of adoption, Whiskey (the cat) was 17 years old, deeply unhappy, half starved thanks to a thyroid problem and not expected to live more than about 6 weeks.
My friend looked after Whiskey and kept that cat well fed, healthy and HAPPY for a year and a half before Whiskey finally died of natural causes. He gave that cat a year and a half of life it wouldn't otherwise have had, and there's no way I can consider how he cared for that animal to be immoral.
Also, I think your example is misleading. You suggest a human (a thinking, reasoning self aware creature) kept as a pet - this would be slavery and as such would be immoral. Animals however, are neither sentient nor self-aware; and as such we cant apply the same rules to them. Would explain in more detail what I mean (dont think I've explained very clearly) but I gotta get to work...
At the time of adoption, Whiskey (the cat) was 17 years old, deeply unhappy, half starved thanks to a thyroid problem and not expected to live more than about 6 weeks.
My friend looked after Whiskey and kept that cat well fed, healthy and HAPPY for a year and a half before Whiskey finally died of natural causes. He gave that cat a year and a half of life it wouldn't otherwise have had, and there's no way I can consider how he cared for that animal to be immoral.
Also, I think your example is misleading. You suggest a human (a thinking, reasoning self aware creature) kept as a pet - this would be slavery and as such would be immoral. Animals however, are neither sentient nor self-aware; and as such we cant apply the same rules to them. Would explain in more detail what I mean (dont think I've explained very clearly) but I gotta get to work...
My cat is the happiest, sweetest cat I've ever met. We rescued her after she was found locked in a drawer in an unlocked, abandoned house. She was in the wild, starving, unloved and alone. Now she has a warm cat bed, food, toys and more love than you could imagine. She's my baby, and that's a lot like she is. A baby. Or, well, maybe a toddler, because she's smart enough to try and get the cat food on her own when she's hungry and out of food. That's when you drop everything and feed your poor baby. In turn, I am her mother. I make sure all her needs are met, including love and affection. And I have her love and affection in return. She hears me typing right now and is calling for me. She comes when I call her. So, no, owning domesticated animals is not immoral. They're domesticated, meaning they're meant to live in homes with humans. It's symbiotic.
Agreed, I have 3 dogs and there always happy n bouncing around with eachother even there food smells good lol so if it is immoral to keep pets then I'm a bad bad person lolDaystar Clarion said:I mean this in the nicest way possible.
Dogs, cats and other pets are too stupid to know that they're pets.
Also, my dog seems very happy with her life.
Better food than in the wild, better healthcare than in the wild, better beds than in the wild.
The wild seems kind of lame
Just because you chose that quite irrelevant piece of video I'll respend to your argument.Vegan_Doodler said:
First of all I'll explain my "pet-background" so to speak. I've grown up in a family that has always kept dogs. During my lifetime we've had 4 dogs. First two when I was little, and to this day losing them are still the most tragic event in my life. We got our third dog after the first one died and she (the third dog) lived for 15 years. We recently had to put her down because her legs were failing and she was noticeably afraid and in pain, it was not an easy decision, but we did it becuase it would be inhumane to let her live like that.
Now, to your argument.
You rightly point out the incoherency in a lot of the argument here, that dogs (or pets, but let's keep it to dogs as they are probably the most prominent pet.) are not advanced enough to understand that they are pets, but that they understand or show love.
However, I disagree with your statment that claim the responses to this thread are "knee-jerk reactions" because people have, and love their, pets. You see, if you have a pet you'll have more of an insight into the morality of pet-keeping than if you do not keep a pet. And for that matter, I think that the OP's Biology degree (or current study toward a degree) gives him an insight into biology, not psychology, which I would say is the primary field of this discussion. So he has as much of a qualified opinion as anyone else on this forum.
Back to your point of view (assumed from the video and your first argument): You seem to fall on the side of pet keeping being immoral. But would releasing our pets into the wild, or euthanising them, be a better alternative? I don't think so. Dogs have evolved alongside, and been bred by, humans. They are as such, not able to survive on their own. As pets dogs are well-fed, sheltered and cared for both medically and socially. In the wild they would most likely be malnourished and poorly sheltered, though they might be cared for socially they would not be be cared for medically.
Now you might say that they do not understand the concept of love, and I agree with that in the sense that they do not understand the concept of love in a human capacity. However, they do bond with the members of their pack, which in the case of dogs is the family that keeps them, they will be attatched to us in some way.
Also, as a final note: The V for Vendetta clip is just irrelevant. It's about freedom, and freedom is also a human concept. Which dogs or pets by your argument do not have the capacity to understand.
Now my opinion on the matter might be biased, but the OP's initial argument is flawed. If humans were to be the pets of aliens who were much more advanced than us we would still have our current mental capacity. That means that, regardless of the gap between our intellect and that of our "owners", we would still understand the concepts of freedom, captivity, love etc. Dogs, on the other hand, do not. It would be immoral to keep a being that is aware of those concepts captive, but dogs are not advanced enough for that. I still belive that they bond to us though, and that that is very similar to the human concept of love, without dogs being aware of that of course.
TL;DR:
1: There are some contradictions in the arguments made.
2: Pets do not have the mental capacity for concepts such as freedom or love.
3: Yet, they do form bonds with members of their pack (us) that are similar to our concept of love.
4: Dogs, especially, are better of as a pet than in the wild, due to them evolving with humans and to them being bred for spesific purposes by humans. Simply put, they would not make it in the wild.
5: The V for Vendetta speech is, by your own argument, irrelevant. If they don't understand the concept of captivity they do not understand the concept of freedom.
6: OP's argument is flawed. Dogs are not as advanced as humans.
7: It would be immoral to keep an advanced being (around human-level of advancement) captive.
8: Keeping dogs (and most pets) as pets is not immoral.
Actually I'm sorry, I didn't really mean it as such. I guess I've just been in too many arguments with people who seem to care a great deal about their pets but turn around and get in a heated discussion regarding what I would call genital mutilation. Not that I didn't consider a Vegan could possibly share your beliefs, but I guess I did kind of phrase it as Vegan "pussy"... yet again a poor choice of words, but if you don't take up hypocritical viewpoints and stand strong to your beliefs then you're not much of a "pussy" at all.Vegan_Doodler said:
Some animals such as Sugar-gliders are inner social animals. Meaning they need their own kind to be happy. In that respect I wouldn't ever own one without making sure he had plenty of friends to make him happy.
Cats and Dogs on the other hand are just social. A dog will see you as part of the pack if you play your cards right as will a cat. It is why dogs will protect you with their lives and cats will give you dead mice as presents. They are caring for you because you are part of their family.
My cat is an outdoors cat. It has the freedom to leave whenever it wants, but he just hangs around. I assume he's happy as he will actually run across the yard to rub himself around my legs when I walk outside.
Not all pets are treated the same, the same way some humans treat other humans cruelly some humans treat animals cruelly. Its a sad reality, but its not the rule. I for one treat my animals with kindness and respect. I learn their social cues and try to figure out what makes them happy.
Cats and Dogs on the other hand are just social. A dog will see you as part of the pack if you play your cards right as will a cat. It is why dogs will protect you with their lives and cats will give you dead mice as presents. They are caring for you because you are part of their family.
My cat is an outdoors cat. It has the freedom to leave whenever it wants, but he just hangs around. I assume he's happy as he will actually run across the yard to rub himself around my legs when I walk outside.
Not all pets are treated the same, the same way some humans treat other humans cruelly some humans treat animals cruelly. Its a sad reality, but its not the rule. I for one treat my animals with kindness and respect. I learn their social cues and try to figure out what makes them happy.
This may sound like a horror story but in fact it's the grim reality of the millions of bugs killed by humans without so much as a second thought. So, is it immoral to kill bugs?
See, it's very easy to make anything sound ungodly immoral if you put the right spin on it. You could make love sound immoral if you described it in that tone.
Keeping pets is a win-win situation. You get to prolong the life of some unfortunate animal that was probably bent for the lethal injection, gain a companion for 20-ish years (dogs/cats) and you can film them with your iPhone and post your shenanigans on YouTube as much as you like.
The pets? They're just happy to be fed, sleep somewhere warm and have a Chtulhu'ian being that looks after them and cherises their companionship.
Captcha again: all dancing
The pets? They're just happy to be fed, sleep somewhere warm and have a Chtulhu'ian being that looks after them and cherises their companionship.
Captcha again: all dancing
no I'm pretty sure my cat knows who's the bossDaystar Clarion said:
well, at least until I politely tell him (once more) that he's somewhat wrong with his interpretation of reality.
also I think dogs know their position very well, they probably just don't know how life looks from our perspective and so have nothing to compare their current situation to. And, let's face it, it's nice to always have someone who gives you food and cuddles you for free : D
You might be right for the rest, though. Then again, it's more a matter of inexperience and good enough circumstances they simply don't need to care, I think.
If things get too unpleasant they will run/scream/scratch/etc. as they see fit.
unless you get bored to death by your owners, then you might get depressed D:
Are you an idiot. A human owning a Human slave, compared to a human owning a dog or a cat is so different it's nigh incomparable. Humans are complex, deeply intelligent creatures, with not only the ability to look after ourselves, but have the innate desire to. Dogs and Cats on the other hand have very basic survival instincts and basically have it hundreds of times better living with humans that they do in the wild. Just ask these simple questions, Are there dog vets, are there dog chefs, are there dog bedmakers, are there dog home makers.JoJo said:
The 'aliens take you away and keep you as a pet' analogy fails for the major reason that my cat is not an animal that can survive on its own in the wild. Domesticated animals are by and large not suited for living in the wild and rely heavily on co-existence with humans. We have engineered their evolution to suit us. So the analogy would work better if, over the course of thousands of years, super-intelligent aliens were breeding us to be more and more reliant on them, as well as breeding us for various traits that are beneficial to those aliens.
However, another problem is the question of the fact that we humans are capable of reasoned, complex thought; my cat is not. My cat is driven largely by instinctual reactions to things; it is impossible for me to explain to my cat that the cat next door to us isn't an enemy and isn't going to compete for resources. There is no point in being territorial because I will always feed my own cat enough to keep her fit and healthy; my cat does not and will never understand that.
However smart these highly advanced aliens are, we can still calculate complex mathematical problems and have highly advanced language; even animals who have 'language', like dolphins, are not terribly advanced. We have an advanced capacity for suffering, brought on by this expanded understanding of the world we inhabit, and our ability to comprehend our own mortality. If my cat suddenly developed the ability to talk and confessed to me that she wasn't being fulfilled by her life, I wouldn't force her to do anything she didn't want to. Only the cruelest among us would make our pets suffer.
I will say that if aliens wanted to abduct me, and said 'Hey, we'll take you to amazing places, supply you with delicious food free of charge, shower you with affection, buy you games and things to entertain you, provide free and top-notch medical care, and never expect you to have to put in hard work (unless you want to), and *all we ask in return* is that you be our best buddy', well... I'd have a hard time turning that down.
Sounds a lot cooler to me than sitting in this cubicle.
However, another problem is the question of the fact that we humans are capable of reasoned, complex thought; my cat is not. My cat is driven largely by instinctual reactions to things; it is impossible for me to explain to my cat that the cat next door to us isn't an enemy and isn't going to compete for resources. There is no point in being territorial because I will always feed my own cat enough to keep her fit and healthy; my cat does not and will never understand that.
However smart these highly advanced aliens are, we can still calculate complex mathematical problems and have highly advanced language; even animals who have 'language', like dolphins, are not terribly advanced. We have an advanced capacity for suffering, brought on by this expanded understanding of the world we inhabit, and our ability to comprehend our own mortality. If my cat suddenly developed the ability to talk and confessed to me that she wasn't being fulfilled by her life, I wouldn't force her to do anything she didn't want to. Only the cruelest among us would make our pets suffer.
I will say that if aliens wanted to abduct me, and said 'Hey, we'll take you to amazing places, supply you with delicious food free of charge, shower you with affection, buy you games and things to entertain you, provide free and top-notch medical care, and never expect you to have to put in hard work (unless you want to), and *all we ask in return* is that you be our best buddy', well... I'd have a hard time turning that down.
Sounds a lot cooler to me than sitting in this cubicle.