Is it just me... or does the Xbox one violate EU laws?

[Brotha Desmond]

They don't care about the European market. Dome of the features they presented aren't available in the EU.

 

[nexus]

I will not respect anyone that buys an X1 and puts the Kinect 2.0 in their home.

Very serious.

 

[WeepingAngels]

Funnily enough most people probably have an uncovered webcam facing them right now from their laptops, potentially recording everything they do without their consent.

Personally I solve the problem with blue tack. Covers the lens, easily and cleanly removed when you want to use it.

Where would your Logitech webcam send this information to? Did Logitech design a program to run silently on your PC to do this?

No, this is just ridiculous. Kinect is not the same as your average PC webcam. There is specific background software running to make Kinect do things like targeted advertising.

Covering the lens doesn't prevent it from recording sound. You can't simply unplug it nor can you pull up Task Manager to see what software is running.

 

[zidine100]

illegal

nonsense, they have expensive lawyers!

 

[WeepingAngels]

Games are software. You don't pay for the disc when you buy a game, you pay to use the software that's stored on said disc. I don't own Halo 4 just because I bought the rights to use a copy of it.

You own that copy of Halo 4 and for that reason you can use the data on that disc in the manner it was intended, you can sell the disc, you can use it for a coaster or a frisbee.

You do not need to have the copyright in order to own something. You need to have the copyright to make legal copies.

 

[Faraja]

Also what you think is right and whats the actual law differ greatly. We have used car sales, we have private auctions, we have markets where people can sell their used items. And all that is legal. Everything you bought and are the owner of you are allowed to sell to someone else. That is the actual situation. You only get in trouble if you make copies of the original and selling those.

Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

The Xbone isn't stopping you from selling the games, or buying used games. It's going to offer the option of paying a fee to use them. Weather or not this means that you either pay the fee, or don't get to play your game; or pay the fee and get all the bonuses as if it were brand new, I haven't heard.

While I'm still behind the idea that Comrade Kinect will be watching and recording your every move, just in case your loyalty to the party in any way falters, it's still important to remember that we don't have all the information. It might simply be something that's built in, and turns on with the console.

 

[kamay]

Nothing is illegal when it comes to electronics and EULA's it's the biggest scam of the 20th(and 21st) century.
You buy a product but by buying this product you agree to their terms that state "you agree to blah blah". Usually involving saying somewhere that you are only purchasing a licence to use the product - essentially leasing it. Microsoft wants kinect always connected - you buy the system you automatically agree. Microsoft wants to scan your xbox one ever 24 hours to see what you have been up to - you buy the system you automatically agree. EA doesn't want their used games being played on xbox one without a fee - you buy the system you automatically agree and so on.

All putting stupid, numerous and uncalled for restrictions on something will only invite people to crack it and pirate it. I don't pirate things myself (I have enough money now to buy most things) but I also won't side with microsoft when someone hacks the xbox one and breaks the restrictions.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Most noticably the "allways on" kinect that watches you and monitors/records whatever you do or say as long as the xbox one is turned on?

I would this would be illegal. What if you have kids that play your console, it would definitely be against the law for that surely? Not that im saying MS are pedos, just that even CCTV cameras are not allowed to look through peoples windows because its an invasion of privacy. Same as i cant walk to a school and start filming a bunch of 5 year olds playing. So how would MS be able to have a kinect in the home that spys on those in the home? even the police cant listen into your conversations with out getting legal clearance to do so.

Also, we know from PC that people have can hack your pc and use the camera and view you without you knowing.

If its always on but i can dump the thing in a cupboard as i wont use it, then fine. But i bet it will ***** and freeze your screen until its replaced, kinda like when the screen freezes when your controller batteries run out. I hope they allow you to turn off certain features, but they have said its mandatory so i guess we have no choice in the matter.

 

[Something Amyss]

Was that sarcasm? O[sub]o[/sub]O

Nooooooooooo. >.<

That and seeing out the X-bone uses Voice Controls, it *could* (Plz don't quote me on this) seriously mess them up, making using the X-Bone impossible to use.

Think a Gamepad that has a faulty left button that is always pressed down.

That depends on how heavily they're integrated into actual games. I doubt they're going to be that heavily implimented beyond optional gimmicks, simply because I think a lot of gamers still like to play sitting down and without shouting and waving like a tool. That's why so many Wiis haven't seen the light of day since that last awkward family gathering.

I'm betting someone's already designed a hood you can snap in place to kill sound and video and we'll see it by launch. Easy to remove with minimal risk of damage.

If not, I want royalties for the idea.

 

[Something Amyss]

illegal

nonsense, they have expensive lawyers!

Did you just say....Screw the rules, I have money?

 

[Little Gray]

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

spyign is nothing. recording and selling it as porn is the real deal.

Well fuck me sideways. If I have to chose between drunken sex on the couch and an xbone I dont think microsoft will be happy with my answer.

While that'd work for the camera, not sure what effect it'd have on the mic.
That and seeing out the X-bone uses Voice Controls, it *could* (Plz don't quote me on this) seriously mess them up, making using the X-Bone impossible to use.

Think a Gamepad that has a faulty left button that is always pressed down.

I dont think you will be forced to use voice controls. There has to be another option like using the controller in which case it would be more like the headphone jack on it doesn't work. I am sure there will be some games where you are forced to use it but not for the dashboard and all that jazz.

 

[Little Gray]

Also what you think is right and whats the actual law differ greatly. We have used car sales, we have private auctions, we have markets where people can sell their used items. And all that is legal. Everything you bought and are the owner of you are allowed to sell to someone else. That is the actual situation. You only get in trouble if you make copies of the original and selling those.

Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

The Xbone isn't stopping you from selling the games, or buying used games. It's going to offer the option of paying a fee to use them. Weather or not this means that you either pay the fee, or don't get to play your game; or pay the fee and get all the bonuses as if it were brand new, I haven't heard.

While I'm still behind the idea that Comrade Kinect will be watching and recording your every move, just in case your loyalty to the party in any way falters, it's still important to remember that we don't have all the information. It might simply be something that's built in, and turns on with the console.

Yes, yes yes. We all have to start calling it Comrade Kinect now as that name is totally badass. I can totally picture the microsoft gestapo breaking into your house and kidnapping you during the night because Comrade Kinect caught you bringing that ps4 home.

 

[Little Gray]

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

I am fairly sure all it said was that its perfectly legal to resell used games. There was nothing in that saying that publishers/distributors had to include an option to give you that ability. It was pretty much a useless court case because all it did absolutely nothing at all. Sure you can legally resell your digital games but unless the service you got them from gives you the option to you have no way to do so.

With the xbox you can still legally sell all of your games but Microsoft doesn't actually have to make them playable. They did state though that they had the used market in mind and wanted to give the ability to resell/trade games. So there will most likely be something that allows you to do this.

There has also been a lot of confusion on the used game issue. There is an article from an interview with a microsoft exec saying that there will be a fee for used games but its a partial quote and we dont have the full transcript of the interview. Microsoft has also said that the article outright lied about that and that having a fee for used games is just one of multiple options that they are considering but have not decided on and will give us more information at a later date.

 

[FoolKiller]

Actually the laws state that you are allowed to resell your things, such as the disc. There are no laws stating that you have to make it feasible. There are also no laws stating that it isn't a one use thing though. The activation code doesn't violate the laws. It does cleverly circumvent them though.

 

[J Tyran]

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You can say this about a lot of things, phones, tablets, smartphones, some TVs, (My TV has a motion control like Kinect anyway and yes its still shit) laptops and even cars.

So many things have devices that can see you, hear you and report your location and any that connect to the internet or a network of some type can be hacked. The Xbone has a lot of problems but being spied on is either a non issue or just another device on the list at worst.

And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

Because if the device is hacked the hacker can turn it on? Short of physically disconnecting microphones and cameras turning them off achieves little. Do you go through a devices options every 20 seconds or less to check they are not on? Can you even reliably tell if they are on or off? What happens if the hacker turns them on but leaves the notification that they off in place?

So again either a non issue or another device on the list. Phones can passively record conversations so I don't know where you got the idea that they can't from, not only can conversations or data transferred by a phone be tapped they act as a portable microphone that can record and transmit conversations that happen around (after all most phones have speakerphone capability) them they can transmit images and in some cases video too. Worse still turning it off will not stop it either, removing the battery is the only way because they can listen and transmit passively and even be turned on remotely by the mobile service provider. Its unlikely a hacker would have most of the options available to say the authorities as they are only possible with the cooperation of the network provider but its possible to hack a phone over wifi and get control of the operating system.

Theres a difference thought.

Most of these devices get security updates.

The other product was made and programmed by the guys who brought you the internet explorer. Whom do you trust more security wise? Not only that but theres a gajillion different mobile phone models and most of them have different architecture and hardware. Not so the xbone.. every xbone will have the same hardware and ofcourse the same security problem.. this is microsoft after all.

Also it is way more difficult to hack into a mobile phone then a stay at home game console. Not only because well its static but also because it is more worthwhile to hack an Xbone then a mobile phone simply because the chances of gaining relevant information like credit cards or interesting conversations that can be used for blackmail is much higher due to the xbox not being used in a subway station with lots of background noise, but in your living room where you feel "safe".

Furthermore when youre in public youre in public... in most western citys we are allready on cams, be it public surveilance for "crime prevention" or in shops, malls and shopping centres for the same reason.

In your living room thought thats a different story.

Also another difference between latop cams etc. and xbone: If i want to make sure theres no hacking attempt going on or has allready occured theres tons of software for that, furthermore i can simply cut my internet connection by pulling a cable.

The xbone does not have 3rd party spy/malware removal programs and requires to atleast be online once every 24 hours.


The devil is in the details

Well you are making judgments on software no one has publicly seen yet, you have no way of knowing how secure it is. Secondly phone architecture is more unified than you realize with only a handful of chips and manufacturers in the mainstream market using the same parts as any number of other phones.

Thirdly people do have financial details stored on phones, if you want to be paranoid about the Xbone go ahead its your right. It is still silly though.

 

[Strazdas]

Have you read anything about the xbone and its kinect?

1) You cannot turn it off.. it will be even on when in standby mode. Why? So it is "ready" for you when you want to activate your xbox via voice command or hand motion.. ergo it DOES watch you 24/7 aslong as you provide electricity to it.

2) The xbone will not run without the kinect plugged in. Plug it out and the xbone will stop working.

3) The kinect camera has infrared and will even watch you when you turn off the lights *giggety*

4) The data is not stored on your harddrive, it will be sent to god knows where. Microsoft has allready filed a patent for the kinect to scan for products in its viewrange for use of targeted commercials. You think they would store that kind of information on your own harddrive?

5) Comparing the kinect.. an input device.. to a monitor? An output device only? Dont know about you but my monitor does not watch me 24/7 and i can turn it off. Neither does it send any information about my private live to a third party unlike the kinect.

6) It was allready said by microsoft that the kinect will be able to even monitor your heartrate and aparantly your "mood" (however thats suposed to work i dont know) In short it does watch you.. it is allways on and watching listening.. i dont know how you feel about it but i say that thats a little bit to much, you are opening a window to your living room and you have no idea who or what is watching on the other hand since microsoft will not tell you to wich third party they are sending your information.

7) About reselling: But you wouldnt be reselling it since no one would be willing to pay twice. Thats like someone selling a used car.. but before you can use it you have to give money to the car manufacturer or else he wont let you drive it. You can bet that there would be a lanslide of lawsuits if any car manufacturer would try to pull this stunt. Thing is.. aparantly no one takes the game industry serious enough to even care.

Thats stiffling the market and freedom of reselling.

Microsoft is trying to create a monopol again like they tried with windows. Internet explorer and windows media center got a whooping from the EU parlament before when microsoft tried to stiffle that particular market.

1) Like i said, you cna turn it off. it does nto generate electricity on its own, unplug the device.
2) of course, but then you would be having a use of it. what, you expect to play games without kinect? are you that naive to think they will let you do that?
3) ergo easy way to make homemade porn.
4) cant send into if the network isnt there. have to store it somewhere or ignore it.
5) Kinect doesn ot watch you 24/7 either. it can be turned off, but the dwevice wont work without it. like a monitor. Do you know that kinect send your private life information to microsoft, or are you jsut goign by the rumors. because rumors dont stand in court you know.
6) Its not always on unelss you leave it on. its not always watching and not always listening and its not always sending information to god knows what indian porn company.
7) Pay twice? where is the twice paying in Digital game sale? Yeah, game industry cna do pretty much anything it wants.

Except if they have malware that turns the camera on without you knowing. And there is such stuff. There are even applications you can install on the computer (well, as opposed to "infect with") if anybody has physical access to it. Goes straight by the antivirus, since a user action. Did anybody fiddle with your laptop lately? Did anybody fiddle with theirs? I dunno, but the widespread of facebook rapes (when people forget to lock their laptops and a friend gets a hold of it) points at the possibility that you're not very secure.

only applies to very old laptops. all new laptops got a diode next to it hardwired to turn on when webcam is powered up. you KNOW when it is on. and the ONLY way to disable that is to physically cut it out.
leaving facebook logged in on public place is thier own problem though, not facebooks. and if your friends that you invite to your home does that isnt it time to change friends?

Erm, the malware doesn't turn the light on. Otherwise it would be kinda failing it's job to be subtle and everything.

except the light cannot be controlled by software in any shape or form.

because Blu-ray has a slower read-write speed than DVD

that is simply factually not true unless you compare a 24x DVD drive with 1x blueray or something. even spilling slwoer blueray is faster whne taking data amount into account.

Nothing is illegal when it comes to electronics and EULA's it's the biggest scam of the 20th(and 21st) century.

funny thing is in EUROPE EULA is not considered legally binding. as far as course are concerned for all intents and purposes EULA is useless. EULA is legally binding only in stupid countries.

I am fairly sure all it said was that its perfectly legal to resell used games. There was nothing in that saying that publishers/distributors had to include an option to give you that ability. It was pretty much a useless court case because all it did absolutely nothing at all. Sure you can legally resell your digital games but unless the service you got them from gives you the option to you have no way to do so.

It sorta did. It decided that a used game should be resoldable and such ability MUST bet granted to the owner of said game. how it is granted was uncertain, but technically the "buy on steam, cant sell it back in any shape or form" stuff is now illegal in europe. But its probably gonig to go under the same way its illegal for women to wear pants in france. noone cares.

Well you are making judgments on software no one has publicly seen yet, you have no way of knowing how secure it is. Secondly phone architecture is more unified than you realize with only a handful of chips and manufacturers in the mainstream market using the same parts as any number of other phones.

Lets be honest here. Its Microsoft. its going to be as secure as standing in the middle of a racing track.

Well fuck me sideways.

That can be arranged.

 

[J.j. Trusello]

Most noticably the "allways on" kinect that watches you and monitors/records whatever you do or say as long as the xbox one is turned on?

As far as I know it is illegal to build something like that into your console without giving the user the option to turn this so called "feature" off in the EU (or atleast in germany)

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

Somehow I doubt that the Xbox one will be able to be sold as is in the EU without atleast enabling to shut down the kinect camera. The used games blockade though might be still pushed through since no one would have to guts or the money to actually sue them because of their unfair business practices that go clearly against the EU judging of used game sales.

You are correct that anyone who buys a game has the right to sell it to someone else. You are wrong however if you think that means that game has to be playable on the system. Microsoft has the right to make used games unplayable on their system if they want. They aren't breaking any laws with that, just being dicks.

 

[Karadalis]

Games are software. You don't pay for the disc when you buy a game, you pay to use the software that's stored on said disc. I don't own Halo 4 just because I bought the rights to use a copy of it.

That might be the case in the US but not over here in the EU.

Aslong as you dont copy any or all of the data you are allowed to resell the disk AND the contents on said disk. Microsoft is activily taking measures to prevent used sales by demanding a fee.

I dont know what its called in english but in german its called "unlauterer wettbewerb" wich includes any and all business practices that try to circumvent laws and/or put the consumer at a disadvantage.

Also to those who said that steam has not done anything yet: Ofcourse not.. if theres no one to sue theres no one to force steam to change anything. Mostly because the usual gamer doesnt have the money or the interest to duke it out with steam. Steam makes great deals and you can say what you want about it, its a great digital distribution platform and widely accepted. No one has reason to sue them actually besides out of principle.. but who does that?

Gamestop on the other hand has more then enough money to make an apeal to EU courts, and they would be stupid if they didnt do it because this could be the beginning of the end for them since they rely heavily on the used games market.

Oh and about just unplugging the whole game console when youre not using it.

Yes that is a good idea.

Also letting your kids not play games that clearly arent made for them due to 18+ content is also a good idea.

See where i am going with this?

You and me might be smart enough.. but Ma and Pa that just bought their 10 year old son Brutalkillergibmasteronelinerchamp 3526XXX have no friggin clue what they are actually getting there and placing in their sons room.

Also the xbone requires an internet connection every 24 hours. No it will not send complete videos to microsoft. It will send information about you that it can identify (and microsoft has allready filed a patent for such a sytem) about your consumerism. It will check everything in sight for information about your behavior, this information can easaly be broken down to a size that trivializes any issues with file size and transmitting the information to microsoft.

Also its alot more easier to hack a cam unnoticed that is allways on when in use then it is to hack a cam that is only suposed to be on when i tell it to be on.

There is absolutely no way to find out with the xbone if someone is watching that isnt suposed to be watching.

And once your Xbone got hacked.. how are you suposed to remove the hack? After all its not a PC and you cant simply get some removal software.. taken you even found out that yours got hacked.

 

[redhatman]

The fee to install the used game onto the xbone will apparently be the same as the price of a full game...

You have got to be shitting me, do you have a link?

I can't find the article, but now it seems like Microsoft hasn't actually decided what the price will be. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Solo-Wing]

They'll have a hard time calling the Xbox one business model legal in Europe never mind convincing people to buy it.

For starters if a system was so draconian I'd just return my games for a full refund after completing them, Europe has laws specifically protecting that right. People just haven't exercised it because the used game market and swapping games have been so prevalent (something they also have laws protecting)

The business model wouldn't be legal, the EU recently ruled that gamers have the right to resell there own games under a first sale doctrine. This was related to Steam but the principal is the same however Valve will draw that case out for years but they have no chance of winning. European courts are very clear on first sale doctrine and don't draw some magical distinction between physical and digital products.