Is it Okay to Admire Certain Horrible People?

[babinro]

Absolutely.

Below are just a few of the positive things that one horrible man did for his country.

1) He unified the German people and helped them regain their sense of pride
2) Stabilized the German economy and eliminated foreign debt
3) He instituted the standardized schedule for the German train system and a standardized measurement for rail cars
4) Created the modern autobahn system
5) Encouraged the development of the Volkswagen
6) Instituted the Kindergarten system
7) Encouraged the development of jet aircraft, and rocket development.

In case you don't already know, this person was Adolf Hitler.

You can often find admirable traits and actions within horrible people. I don't see a problem with acknowledging and respecting the good in an otherwise horrible person.

 

[Dizchu]

Blaise Pascal - great mathematician except for one tiny thing... the whole "Pascal's Wager" nonsense. Ughh. Maybe he had good intentions way back in the day but now it's being used by every creationist under the sun to scare people into believing what they do. Not cool. Not a particularly horrible person, but someone that inspired countless horrible people.

Igor Stravinsky - one of the best musicians who ever lived... and also someone that was cosy with fascists like Mussolini.

Phil Fish - Fez is a spectacular game in my opinion... Phil Fish however is every negative stereotype about indie devs amplified.

Varg Vikernes (in the 90s) - His musical output in the early-to-mid 90s is fantastic, absolutely amazing... but if anyone knows anything about good ol' Varg, it's that he's a complete douchebag. He's one of the few people that can burn down churches, stab a man to death, incite hate speech and have an affiliation with Anders Breivik and still be considered a laughing stock.

Actually that goes for many black metal musicians with Nazi beliefs. Beautiful music, disgusting musicians.

Dave Mustaine - I'm not the biggest Megadeth fan but Rust in Peace is a classic album... too bad Dave Mustaine is a complete right-wing Alex Jones-level asshole.

 

[carnex]

Yep, you can admire horrible people to a level and still be disgusted by them.

Take, for example, Temujin, better known as Genghis Khan.

Now there is one of the worst people that ever lived. On his orders millions were systematically eradicated. Hitler is a baby compared to him. Under his orders whole cities were erased with every living being within beheaded, and his successors took things even further. He raped so many women that 1/6 of of humanity is thought to carry his genes.

Yet, he united east and west, he, through sheer force of his personality, united waring tribes for a long time, created safe trade routs, transferred knowledge between east and west... and that is not even touching upon his military and political genius. He's on of greatest people of all times rubbing shoulders with likes of Bismarck (scientists are different kind of great, those greatness can't really compare in my view).

There are so many other examples, Hans Guderian, Otto von Bismarck, Hernan Cortez, Qin Shi Huang etc

 

[happyninja42]

I guess the reason it's kind of bothering me is that it's not so much a case of admiring someone's talent and contributions while disliking them as a person as it is me genuinely liking Paul Heyman and being a big fan of his but feeling sort of uncomfortable placing him on a pedestal even though he's done some pretty messed up things that I would be quick to condemn in other people. I was watching a documentary on his career, and when it got to yhe part on how he lied his way into the backstage and into several prestigious jobs, my first reaction was "Heh, that's pretty clever" followed by "No, wait! That's messed up! Why am I admiring him for that?" And then it got to the part about all the people he ripped off and still owed money to (which I actually already knew about) and was shaking my head at what he did but still kind of impressed by his audacity. So I guess this is just an internal hypocrite check.

I think the question you might ask is

"Do I admire him specifically because of his shitty behavior?"

or is it

"Do I admire him because of what he was able to accomplish, despite doing it in a shitty way?"


I personally think that the ends don't always justify the means, and that how you get to where you are, is as important as the fact that you got there. So depending on the person, no I don't think I could admire some shitty people for what they accomplished.

I can acknowledge what they did, and that it was possibly an impressive feat of personal accomplishment, but I won't respect them for it, or laud them at all.

 

[TallanKhan]

I'm inlcined to say yes.

I used to work with a consultant physician who was one of the most unpleasnt people I have ever had the misfortune to meet. He always had a chip on his shoulder, I once saw him reduce a member of his team to tears over a silly mistake, and even tried to start disciplinary action against a member of staff who left work early without permission after being told her partner had been rushed to hospital with a suspected heart attack.

I never saw him smile, or say a kind word to anyone, but even considering all of that, if I had been a patient, I would have wanted him as my doctor. If one of his patients was suffering he used to move heaven and earth to help them, I came in one morning and it was meant to be his day off, he had spent all night on the ward monitoring one of his patients' pain medication and didn't leave until almost mid day and not until he knew he had done everything he could.

At the end of the day I didn't like him as a person, and know most people felt the same way, but everyone respected him and I damn well admired what he used to do. It was a huge loss to us when he retired.

 

[V da Mighty Taco]

Certainly. As much as I hate to invoke Goodwin's law, there's something to be said for the Nazi war machine that has earned them a lot of respect as warriors, despite them being unanimously viewed as one of history's truly evil villains.

This reminds me of some characters I came up with for a story idea of mine. An immortal-yet-human queen who absolutely hated her father and, along with her little sister, secretly killed him after he was wounded in a battle. The father was an incredibly abusive individual with a literal god-complex who did all sorts of terrible things to many people, including his own children. However, he was also an excellent warlord who conquered much of the known world in his lifetime and trained his children to be powerful combatants and rulers (despite his own immortality ensuring that he would never cease to be Emperor). While his daughter / successor would continue to absolutely loathe him well after his death, she still has some degree of respect for him as an Emperor and warrior due to how much he had accomplished in his lifetime and how well he had trained her.

To get back on topic though, it's quite easy to respect someone for their accomplishments but loathe them as human beings, in the same vein that one can appreciate a work of art but not the artist themselves (Fez, anyone?).

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Absolutely.

Below are just a few of the positive things that one horrible man did for his country.

1) He unified the German people and helped them regain their sense of pride
2) Stabilized the German economy and eliminated foreign debt
3) He instituted the standardized schedule for the German train system and a standardized measurement for rail cars
4) Created the modern autobahn system
5) Encouraged the development of the Volkswagen
6) Instituted the Kindergarten system
7) Encouraged the development of jet aircraft, and rocket development.

In case you don't already know, this person was Adolf Hitler.

You can often find admirable traits and actions within horrible people. I don't see a problem with acknowledging and respecting the good in an otherwise horrible person.

Then you should read about Albert Speer. It's possible that he wasn't a horrible person. Just terribly misguided. There's a book about him called "The Good Nazi". I don't think that dude gave a single fuck about the nature of the war or that he even harbored any hate towards the Jews and other "enemies of the Aryan race". He just loved the challenge of creating a powerful empire out of Germany. And he did a fine job at that. He was the Nazi war machine. And during the Nuremberg trials he owned up to everything, even things he knew nothing about. That probably saved his life. Which is why the history remembers him as the good Nazi. It's never black and white. Most people think that they're doing the right thing. It's only in hindsight that some of them recognize the horrors of their actions. Speer was one of them.

 

[IOwnTheSpire]

I think it's okay, depending on what you admire. I recall in Star Trek when the crew first learns Khan's identity, and Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty all admire the fact that despite being an evil fascist dictator, there were no wars or massacres under his reign. Spock is, of course, shocked by this:

Spock: Gentlemen!
Kirk: Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can admire him and be against him all at the same time.
Spock: Illogical.
Kirk. Completely.

I would certainly admire someone's accomplishments in life, I just wouldn't admire the methods they used to achieve them.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Certainly. One of my personal favorite historical figures is Constantine the Great. He was one of the more power-hungry and egotistical emperors of Rome, he was incredibly selfish, he constantly lied and manipulated his way to getting what he wanted, he murdered anyone who stood in his way, no matter who they were, and, worst of all, he was an emperor of Rome. Still, he was one of the most remarkably competent rulers who ever lived, for all his moral faults. He achieved anything he set his mind to. How can you not admire a man who completely reshaped European culture to fit his ideals and also proved himself to be the greatest military and civil leader of his era?

 

[T8B95]

Absolutely. Some of the people I admire most in history are also probably people who, if they lived today, I wouldn't want to be within a hundred kilometres of.

Gaius Julius Caesar: probably committed history's first example of genocide, against most of the population of France, yet he overthrew a corrupt and ineffective republic to form the foundations of one of the greatest societies in history.

Genghis Khan: the world's most successful conqueror. Had true mastery of the sciences of logistics and warfare. Killed 17% of the world's population at the time, and one of his grandsons introduced the plague to Europe.

Napoleon Bonaparte: one of the greatest tactician/strategist combination to ever walk the Earth, while also being a great ruler and a statesman. Also, one of the only generals to have enemies design their entire strategies around NOT having to fight them head on (Hannibal also comes to mind).

These guys weren't exactly good people. However, all of them were great leaders who completely dominated the time they lived in, for good reasons. I think that deserves admiration and respect.

 

[Breakdown]

This thread reminded me of something I was wondering about when Rolf Harris was convicted of indecent assault on children. For people who don't know who he is, he was a popular entertainer and TV presenter for decades. He was also an artist, and I'd noticed there were a few of his paintings in a local department store, but which disappeared as soon as the allegations were released.

So what would the people who actually owned Rolf Harris's artwork do? He was a reasonable artist, and his paintings presumably appealed to the people who bought them, but suddenly there's a whole new sinister dimension to owning his artwork. Would they destroy their paintings or keep them?

 

[deleted+75193]

DELETED

 

[Inglorious891]

Yeah, it's totally possible. It's hard not to admire what Napoleon did, for example, despite it being a rather bloody mess. Hell, I personally have a lot of respect for Erwin Rommel despite the whole Nazi business because of how respectful he acted toward his friends and enemies and because of how brilliant he was as a commander.

 

[Haerthan]

Of course you can admire horrible people. Look at me I admire Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, the Japanese military in WW2 and all the other South American dictators. Yes sir, their accomplishments are the best humanity has had to offer so far.

/S. Big sarcasm font.

ALthough in reality I see Nicolae Ceausescu as a hero, just like the rest of my brethren

 

[Something Amyss]

Most people will fall short of your expectations, and in my experience, most people have some "awful" aspects.

Though in Paul's case, I'd be more concerned that he's more myth than man. That is, he got there more by people remembering only the good stuff (and even then, much of it manufactured). The maligned Vince Russo probably had a larger net positive. It's interesting how we remember people.

 

[maneyan]

Certainly you can. Ability is one thing, virtue another. One of my personal "heroes" is Hermann Goering, Hitler's propaganda Master. Certainly the man was a slimy little fuck who enabled one of the worst regimes ever, but he was also very wise in his own way. Why? A few reasons

?Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America nor, for that matter, in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ... [V]oice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.?
-Hermann Goering during the Nurnberg trials

What more, he also spent to my knowledge most of the trials running circles around his prosecutor and when he was convicted and sentenced to death(because he never had a chance and knew he didn't), he killed himself rather than to give them the satisfaction. Wisdom, wit and going out with a bang, I can't help but admire that.

 

[cleric of the order]

no person is ever clean or pure, we are noble animals and nob is the derivative of that.
We all own our little maddness.
In many ways.
Like who you do, but understand why.
Why do you like those people.
Look deep, there is a reason in the depth of your mind.

 

[Mister K]

Sure. You don't have to like a guy to admire their actions/creations.

 

[chuckman1]

As a strategy game player who dreams of my country controlling the whole map I can respect the achievement of the Mongol Empire.
Genghis Khan committed mass murder and rape to instill fear in his enemies. If he was alive I'd call for drone strikes.
But the fear he caused was key to the rapid expansion of the Mongols.