Is it racism?
- Thread starter xxcloud417xx
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on who's part?Mr0llivand3r said:
and I wasn't complaining about turbans in general people can wear whatever they feel like, but the main point is : As long as it doesn't go against the law, or the set of rules already in place. But that's the case with EVERYTHING, you can do whatever you want in society, as long as it doesn't go against rules or laws that are in place for the good of that society.anNIALLator said:
The living room example is not a very good one for the scenarios your describing. The biker who doesn't wear a helmet isn't trying to pass a law that says no one else should, just like how the guy who wants to carry his knife isn't trying to convince everyone else to do it.xxcloud417xx said:
Anyways, back to your question. I believe people have a right to practice whatever rituals they believe in so long as they do not endanger themselves or other, and I do NOT think that complaining about someones ritual when it does pose a threat is racist. What comes off as racist or prejudice is when people complain about someones ritual just because its different than their own. So WHAT if he doesn't want to wear the hat!? Everyone else can wear the hat and it doesn't take away any of the "pride" or "honor" that the hat may stand for....ITS A HAT!
Its not racism. Im canadian too. what it is, is ignorance. however you should realize that canada is a multicultural society. I personnaly despise it when people think that because there god tells them or requires them to do, wear or say something that is not accepted in canada as a law. No i dont give Fu<k that you need a knife to be on good terms with your god, or that you need a turban, or a shawl or whatever! If you really believe in your religion fine, if you love your god(s) and people fine, but dont excpect others ppeople, other CULTURES to go along with it, especiallyif its YOU imposing on US. were bigger, so if ya wanna fight , fight, but dont cry too much when your god doesnt show up and save your sorry asses. That being said, Im catholic. Yes, i was baptized and participate in all that jazz. NO i dont like it. No I dont have a problem with gays, jews, hinduism, buddisim. I love that Canada is so diveres. But theres a limit to what Canada will tolereate, and your religion, be it catholic, or muslim, is not an excuse to...wait...yes it is. but it being an excuse doesnt mean we can make excuses too, like " well, such and such a (insert culture/religion/race here) was getting out of hand, if we hadnt exterminated them, there would have been war...." Its worked before and it will work again. Im patriotic as a canadian can be. so if you took offense from this liitle spiel, im sorry, and i really do love the whole world. just not those individuals who seek to hurt it or my country.xxcloud417xx said:
I think that anyone should abide the laws of whatever country they happen to be in at the moment, even though I do also maintain the belief that tolerance is the way to go.
I find it hard to believe that these immigrants did whatever they did to get on edge with the law to impose their own culture on the Canadian - rather, I think it's a harmless wish of preserving some of their identity that is boiled down to a hard knot of rejectance by the inevitable frustrations of integrating into a new society.
So what I'm basically trying to say is that I think it's human and that anyone - you and myself included - would react in the same fashion in their place. As such, it is very difficult for me to get frustrated by such cases.
Indeed, it is hard for me to grasp why anyone would be worked up over deniers of law, whatever their motivation is - It's peoples own lives, and if they decide not to play by the rules they're punished and let's be done with it.
This being said, I be no means reject the fact that there's assholes between the immigrants, but there's assholes in any group, like there's nice people. What I'm trying to get to is that I find it wrong to hand out generalized judgements over groups of people. I'm totally for deciding if a person is a prick or not when I meet him and not when I hear about a certain group of people he may belong to.
My overall point is basically that the less worked up people get over things, the nicer a place this world will be.
But to answer the actual question, it is not racism - racism is the idea that the colour of a person's skin and the blood flowing in his or her veins are factors that affect how good a person he or she is. And I assume your frustration would be the same if these immigrants were milk-pale whiteys?
I find it hard to believe that these immigrants did whatever they did to get on edge with the law to impose their own culture on the Canadian - rather, I think it's a harmless wish of preserving some of their identity that is boiled down to a hard knot of rejectance by the inevitable frustrations of integrating into a new society.
So what I'm basically trying to say is that I think it's human and that anyone - you and myself included - would react in the same fashion in their place. As such, it is very difficult for me to get frustrated by such cases.
Indeed, it is hard for me to grasp why anyone would be worked up over deniers of law, whatever their motivation is - It's peoples own lives, and if they decide not to play by the rules they're punished and let's be done with it.
This being said, I be no means reject the fact that there's assholes between the immigrants, but there's assholes in any group, like there's nice people. What I'm trying to get to is that I find it wrong to hand out generalized judgements over groups of people. I'm totally for deciding if a person is a prick or not when I meet him and not when I hear about a certain group of people he may belong to.
My overall point is basically that the less worked up people get over things, the nicer a place this world will be.
But to answer the actual question, it is not racism - racism is the idea that the colour of a person's skin and the blood flowing in his or her veins are factors that affect how good a person he or she is. And I assume your frustration would be the same if these immigrants were milk-pale whiteys?
Well yeah, it has nothing to do with their origin. It has everything to do with the fact that they're breaking laws and predetermined rules (or trying to modify them).Thirsk said:
Another thing that just came back to mind is something I heard from a family member once too (they said it in french but I'll translate it) : "They [immigrants] leave or flee their country for whatever reasons, but they bring it along with them [to ours]."
A simple equation:
Laws=Facts
Religious beliefs=Opinions
It is commonly accepted that Fact is > Opinion
Therefore, one must conclude that Laws > Beleifs.
And as for the 'Well, you screwed other nations" point: Shut up. Since we're not allowed to do that any more, then said nations are no longer entitled to ***** about it. At least we had the balls to wear uniforms and stand in long lines when we fought.
/Incoherent rambling.
Laws=Facts
Religious beliefs=Opinions
It is commonly accepted that Fact is > Opinion
Therefore, one must conclude that Laws > Beleifs.
And as for the 'Well, you screwed other nations" point: Shut up. Since we're not allowed to do that any more, then said nations are no longer entitled to ***** about it. At least we had the balls to wear uniforms and stand in long lines when we fought.
/Incoherent rambling.
There are no rational terms by which to conduct this discussion because the OP made a bunch of invalid assumptions.
The problem here isn't racism, it's the collectivist mindset that you somehow have title to all of Canada because you're a Canadian. Collectivism in any form leads inevitably to such problems. The solution is individualism and the recognition of individual rights. If you knew and understood what rights you should and shouldn't have, you wouldn't have any problems dealing with "outsiders" of any stripe, because group affiliation would be meaningless to you.
How does what your ancestors did have any bearing this issue? If you go back far enough, everyone on the planet is related to everyone else.xxcloud417xx said:
Does it piss your dad off when people who obviously AREN'T new immigrants do the same thing? I'll bet they exist. The ideas should be the problem, not the status of the people propounding the ideas.
But it's perfectly okay for you to impose your culture on them because you were there first?
Does the government have any business dictating to you what you can wear on your head while riding a motorcycle?
Does the government have any business dictating what you can and cannot carry around with you in school?
This one, I'll grant is an actual issue because police are a legitimate function of the government and it's perfectly logical for them to have a uniform. So someone proposing to become a policeman should make themselves aware of the uniform requirements in advance before pursuing that career choice.
The difference between your house and your country is that you OWN your house. I'm assuming that you don't OWN Canada. So where do you get off trying to dictate to other people how they should and shouldn't behave when they aren't on your property?
The problem here isn't racism, it's the collectivist mindset that you somehow have title to all of Canada because you're a Canadian. Collectivism in any form leads inevitably to such problems. The solution is individualism and the recognition of individual rights. If you knew and understood what rights you should and shouldn't have, you wouldn't have any problems dealing with "outsiders" of any stripe, because group affiliation would be meaningless to you.
It's a shame that the discussion is sort of racially charged, because ultimately it doesn't seem all that relevant.
The guy in the RCMP needs to abide by their uniform standards. There are reasons for this that have already been mentioned. If some guy doesn't wear a helmet when riding a motorbike, he gets fined. The reason for this is likely that your government is trying to reduce traffic-related deaths, although in a rather ham-handed way. His ethnicity is irrelevant and should not affect this either way.
As for immigrants protesting against gay marriage or whatever, it's within their civic rights to do so, no matter where they originally came from. It doesn't mean I agree with them, but Free Expresion Boulevard is a two-way street.
The guy in the RCMP needs to abide by their uniform standards. There are reasons for this that have already been mentioned. If some guy doesn't wear a helmet when riding a motorbike, he gets fined. The reason for this is likely that your government is trying to reduce traffic-related deaths, although in a rather ham-handed way. His ethnicity is irrelevant and should not affect this either way.
As for immigrants protesting against gay marriage or whatever, it's within their civic rights to do so, no matter where they originally came from. It doesn't mean I agree with them, but Free Expresion Boulevard is a two-way street.
JMeganSnow said:
Yes it does piss him off when other people (other than immigrants) say the same thing. But it is an issue with the immigrants because they're usually bringing that idea from their own country and trying to force it on us.JMeganSnow said:
We aren't imposing anything culture-wise. The issue is when they impose their culture to the detriment of the law. They chose to come live here they have to accept what comes with that choice.JMeganSnow said:
I'll answer this with another question : Does the Government have any business trying to maintain public safety? The answer seems obvious to me...JMeganSnow said:
Again, a public safety issue. You can't let children bring weapons to school.JMeganSnow said:
I'm not dictating what they should be doing when they're not on my property. I'm actually not trying to dictate anything. And frankly I agree that they can do anything they want in this country when they're on private property (within lawful reason obviously). I'm just trying to make a point that they should be obeying the laws on PUBLIC or GOVERNMENT property (Hwys and schools for example) and that some, not all, immigrants don't.JMeganSnow said:
This has nothing to do with collectivism. It mostly has to do with public safety, law, and rules that are not being respected because some people refuse to take on the responsibility of the choice they made to come live here. And the fact that I have to obey those laws without question, and so should all that choose to live here.JMeganSnow said:
That's actually why this became an issue. He was fined and fought it because of his turban. He tried playing the Religion card to break the law.poleboy said:
The very concept of something such as "public safety" is a collectivist concept--even the term "the public" is usually nebulous and undefined. If it encompasses *everyone* in the group, then you cannot possibly keep *the entire* public safe by having a law about motorcycle helmets--because *the entire* public don't ride motorcycles. If it encompasses only *some* people in a given case (the ones who ride motorcycles, apparently) it is a completely arbitrary designation that results in denying rights to people on the basis of whether or not they can be considered to be part of whatever group is currently being called "the public".xxcloud417xx said:
The proper principle is to recognize that *individuals* have the right to decide whether they want to risk injury or not, whether they find it permissible to allow weapons in their *private* schools (public schooling is an atrocity and should be abolished), and that they are not harming anyone by advertising their ideas regardless of what particular piece of ground they happened to be standing on when they arrived at those ideas.
Someone I was once close to studied in Qatar for medicine. She was obligated to follow the rules and mores that the country had. Traveling with a female native of that country to America, she more than once had to take that girl from Qatar aside and tell her to stop lecturing or acting disgusted with the female American population, since she herself has to follow the Qatar ways of life. The native girls response?
"Our rules are correct. This is depravity."
This is not my get-out-of-jail free card, but it still is in some respects; I'm a Black Male American. I'll spare you the history since February is coming up soon and I don't want to overburden you. Suffice to say, I get certain things about certain things.
I'm personally tired of the West (that includes UK... sorry, guys) to be held to a different standard than the world. That does not promote unity, it promotes ill will... it promotes antagonism. It's the oddest thing, Most other countries decry the West while turning a blind eye to the fact that most of the things they dislike (intolerance, ego-centrism, being too proud), they are not only doing it by how much they condemn the West, but probably in five different other cases by neighboring cultures being different than they are.
"It's my culture" is only a Get-out-of-jail free card as much as one is willing to respect it, not just give it out to do whatever they want. If it's ok to wrap your women head-to-toe because men might have sinful urges about them,that's great. I'll totally respect it. But respect my family's right to dress however they want because they chose it. No culture supersedes another, and I think that's what it comes down to.
I will respect others as much as I'm respected. If you bend over backwards for me, prepare for me to do the same. If you don't care the slightest bit about what is alright with me, why am I supposed to take your feelings as my new Dogma and kowtow to them?
Oh, and let's not get it twisted, some cultures are still legitimately worse off because of ancestors' actions. That doesn't mean Descendants have to pay for it. The only extreme way I can picture that happening if if I could trace how the sweat and blood of my ancestors made a specific person's ancestors rich. And even then, what did I do to earn that money? However! If they stole an idea, that's a different subject. If my grandfather came up with the original concept of McDonalds, and Roy Kroc stole that bad boy, you best know I'm getting me some of those billions. If my grandfather help physically build the first McDonalds, I guess all I can really get from that is the feeling of pride that my granddad help build the living blight of our times.
Oh, and to those Descendants, just because one admits that you don't owe anything doesn't mean you can just go about being an insensitive prick about it. I think that's truly what gets people riled up the most. Oh, and to those who still are feeling the affects of the Ancestors? Same thing. We work together, or we work ourselves apart. One's a step to a better future, the other just keeps the crap following. Personally, I'm tired of crap.
"Our rules are correct. This is depravity."
This is not my get-out-of-jail free card, but it still is in some respects; I'm a Black Male American. I'll spare you the history since February is coming up soon and I don't want to overburden you. Suffice to say, I get certain things about certain things.
I'm personally tired of the West (that includes UK... sorry, guys) to be held to a different standard than the world. That does not promote unity, it promotes ill will... it promotes antagonism. It's the oddest thing, Most other countries decry the West while turning a blind eye to the fact that most of the things they dislike (intolerance, ego-centrism, being too proud), they are not only doing it by how much they condemn the West, but probably in five different other cases by neighboring cultures being different than they are.
"It's my culture" is only a Get-out-of-jail free card as much as one is willing to respect it, not just give it out to do whatever they want. If it's ok to wrap your women head-to-toe because men might have sinful urges about them,that's great. I'll totally respect it. But respect my family's right to dress however they want because they chose it. No culture supersedes another, and I think that's what it comes down to.
I will respect others as much as I'm respected. If you bend over backwards for me, prepare for me to do the same. If you don't care the slightest bit about what is alright with me, why am I supposed to take your feelings as my new Dogma and kowtow to them?
Oh, and let's not get it twisted, some cultures are still legitimately worse off because of ancestors' actions. That doesn't mean Descendants have to pay for it. The only extreme way I can picture that happening if if I could trace how the sweat and blood of my ancestors made a specific person's ancestors rich. And even then, what did I do to earn that money? However! If they stole an idea, that's a different subject. If my grandfather came up with the original concept of McDonalds, and Roy Kroc stole that bad boy, you best know I'm getting me some of those billions. If my grandfather help physically build the first McDonalds, I guess all I can really get from that is the feeling of pride that my granddad help build the living blight of our times.
Oh, and to those Descendants, just because one admits that you don't owe anything doesn't mean you can just go about being an insensitive prick about it. I think that's truly what gets people riled up the most. Oh, and to those who still are feeling the affects of the Ancestors? Same thing. We work together, or we work ourselves apart. One's a step to a better future, the other just keeps the crap following. Personally, I'm tired of crap.
That's easy. It's cool to be dismissive nowadays. We're a global conglomerate of Rebels Without a Cause... Because it's Hip!Eggo said:
Totally not racisim. If they move to lets say x country they should have to abide by x country's laws or get the hell out.
Maybe so but that's the reason we have many different laws, to encompass the entire population and keep them safe. You won't have a seat belt law for cars and not a motorcycle helmet law, every road vehicle driver or passenger must be kept safe.JMeganSnow said:
True, but "public" was never used in this context, it was used to encompass ALL.JMeganSnow said:
But we should forget about other Individuals' right to be safe on the roads or at school?JMeganSnow said:
Why? Would you rather have religious schools breeding extremists?JMeganSnow said:
The law states that you are allowed to advertise your ideas without harming anyone, it's called freedom of speech and idea. And I never mentioned having a problem with that, but not regardless of the ground they are on. I have a right to not have people on my property that I don't want there, or signs for that matter (election signs are an example). But if it is Public, Government or Private(though there needs to be consent from the owner, obviously) property, then by all means it is a free country, do what is in your rights. But the issue wasn't, totally legal and encouraged, advertisement of beliefs, it was disrespect of previously established laws and regulations (that are in the best interest of the entire nation), and attempts at defense by "playing the religion or race card".JMeganSnow said:
I have a question for you though. What is so wrong with Collectivism? I'm not saying Individualism is bad, but I believe everything must be kept away from the extreme. (for example Socialism as a form of government is bad, but a small amount of it can be beneficial. Which is probably why we have some, think of Welfare and "free" health care (it's paid through taxes so it's not really free, nothing is ever "free", but it's just easier to say free health care))
Umm...no-
It is not racist to want to have someone's face on a Driver's Liscence or a personal ID card (or a passport)...it is common sense...
It is not racist to decide what type of image you want the people who work in your company to present...it is good business sense...
It is not racist to want to know how many people are actually in your country...as long as you make the SAME rule applicable to everyone (yes, I know what Carlos Mencia says on THAT subject)...
AND relating to the guy with the turban...whether or not you believe in God, you will want every indication that "I'm a good guy, don't shoot me" if you happen to get into a fire-fight with the bad guys...
You're asking me to give you a job/rights/benefits/all of the above, yet you want to tell me HOW to do this? *&^% off.
It is not racist to want to have someone's face on a Driver's Liscence or a personal ID card (or a passport)...it is common sense...
It is not racist to decide what type of image you want the people who work in your company to present...it is good business sense...
It is not racist to want to know how many people are actually in your country...as long as you make the SAME rule applicable to everyone (yes, I know what Carlos Mencia says on THAT subject)...
AND relating to the guy with the turban...whether or not you believe in God, you will want every indication that "I'm a good guy, don't shoot me" if you happen to get into a fire-fight with the bad guys...
You're asking me to give you a job/rights/benefits/all of the above, yet you want to tell me HOW to do this? *&^% off.