Is it really an issue of gender equality?

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Bocaj2000

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SecretNegative said:
Bocaj2000 said:
"I'm not a feminist nor do I want gender equality. I just want proper female representation."

That's not the same thing, mate. But that GIF i great, so I'll forgive you.

OnT: Zhukov pretty much nailed it for me (as almsot always), I don't go an actively fight for female rights, but I am directly tunred off by blatant pandering. I'm sorry, but why would I ever want to watch half-naked ladies while I'm playing a game? If I want watch sexy ladies, I can watch porn where they take off the whole thing... and it's real people as well... and they actually, you know, have sex? It just seems useless and cheap.
Thanks for forgiving me ^-^

Aside from the argument of semantics, I agree with you and the OP. Blatant oversexualization is a complete and utter turn off to the character and the game. Sell the character to me as a consumer, not as a person who owns a penis.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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The vast majority of video game sexism comes straight from Japan or Korea, full stop. Dead or Alive. Dragon's Crown. Tera. Metroid: Other M. Bayonetta. Lollipop Chainsaw. On and on. Western game developers, relatively speaking, have already turned the corner. The majority of video game protagonists are still mid-30s white dudes with brown hair, but that has everything to do with the high-risk of AAA game development and little to do with gender equality.

The Asian region also gives precisely zero fucks about Western ideas concerning gender. When the DOA creator was under fire for his designs, he basically told his Western critics to fuck off. When Dragon's Crown's lead artist was under similar scrutiny, he responded with offensive jokes and dismissals. Hideo Kojima is unapologetically amping up the sex appeal for the next MGS.

I guess I'm trying to say that these conversations seem to be occurring almost exclusively in the West, but Western devs are no longer the problem.

Robert Marrs said:
Honestly I don't think its got anything to do with gender equality. One really important thing to remember is that equal opportunity does not (and should never) mean equal outcomes. Just because you have the opportunity to do something does not mean you will get the same outcome as someone else doing it. That is called life, not sexism or whatever. When a game developer makes a game they choose who they want in that game, how those characters will be represented, what they will look like etc. Its a catch 22 with the people complaining about this stuff. If you exclude a female character or choose not to use a female protagonist they complain and cry sexism. If you do include them its complaining about how they are represented or what situations they are put in regardless. The tomb raider uproar is a perfect example of this. Worst of all if you put in a female character just for the sake of being politically correct not only will the game likely suffer for it but you are really the worst type of person at that point. Doing something just to avoid backlash even when its not what you want to do is just plain cowardly. Best just to ignore the people complaining about this stuff because they will always find something else to complain about.
I hate dismissing people as whiners out of hand, but it's hard not to on this issue sometimes. Some people hold up Alyx Vance as an ideal female character while others accuse her of pandering to the "enlightened nerd". Some grill Bayonetta for sexy nude dance attacks while others point to her self-possessed nature as critical to female characterization. Some games feature hardened criminal gangs hanging out in strip clubs because that is, frequently, what horrible people do - but never mind narrative-appropriate settings if we can grind this gigantic fucking axe.

***** about exploitative Asian MMOs all you want. I'll gladly support such criticism. But the Western game development scene is suitably tasteful and respectful these days. At some point, not liking a character or the choices a writer/designer has made doesn't automatically make the game sexist. Maybe you just don't like it, and that shouldn't be the end of the world or the start of another social justice crusade. Pick up another "book" and get on with your life.
 

Jenvas1306

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Zhukov said:
Jenvas1306 said:
In a jump'n'run the protargonist really isnt important and could be just a ball of goo (just dont call it gooboy or something), I doubt anyone would criticize the lack of a gender.
Funny you should say that.

Meet Gish from Gish.

Although he's actually a specifically male ball of goo on a quest to rescue his girlfriend.

Oh well.
the question is why must he be male? like how do you even define that? a ball of goo could have any reason to take on such a journey, like for a cookie and you got a game that doesnt apply to the stereotype. I guess that didnt come to the mind of gishs creators.

FieryTrainwreck said:
I agree that the worst offenders often come from asian countries like korea and japan.
I used to really like that metroid has samus as a female protargonist but even I liked other M as a game, I hated that the portrayal of her femininity made her look so weak. I used to be able to identify with her and in metroid prime she even looks similar to me, but now she is just another whiney anime girl. Its really sad when that happens.
 

Thr33X

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Fairness is not equal. Equality is not fairness. You cry for or clamor for or rally for equal "representation" in gaming, or complain about oversexualization but fail to realize that these design cues are the choices of the creators themselves, to be interpreted by the consumer as they see fit. Some will object to these choices, others will not. That's just how it works. But the vapid accusations of sexism and the all of the sudden whining about depictions of characters in games like it's a crime against humanity is getting a little tired, a little old and a little annoying.

If something bothers you, then don't interact with it. Don't like Dragon's Crown? Don't play it. Hell, if you don't have a PS3 or Vita you CAN'T play it, so why even talk about something you can't even experience for yourself? Because everyone wants to be a critic, expert, pundit, what have you and try to force their near-sighted agenda on a medium that at it's base is about fantasy, escapism and FUN. So if something's not fun, or you find something about a game objectionable, go find something else that's to your liking instead. When did that stop being a solution?
 

Callate

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Well, here's the thing.

Take the OP's example 90% of people enrolling in engineering courses being male- a statistic that may be hokum, and is offered without clarification as to where or at what level, but for the sake of discussion let's say university/college level.

Now, one possibility is simply that a much greater number of men are interested in engineering than women.

Another possibility is that many girls are told from an early age that math and the hard sciences are unfeminine. Assuming they make it through that particular cultural "hoop", they then face classes in which a disproportionate number of their fellow students are male, and possibly unwelcoming within what they see as their domain. Also that more of their teachers will be male. That progresses through years of schooling, each subsequent year causing more of the shrinking pool of female students in those classes that would form the groundwork for studying engineering to peel off, deciding that the field isn't for them or that it isn't worth the trouble. By the time you get to the college/university level, you're left with that 10%.

Is that, then, a matter of diversity? Or is that a matter of inequality? The female students may not have been out-and-out denied the option to choose the engineering-major courses, but if they were discouraged at every opportunity from creating the foundations that would make those courses appealing or given them a chance to be successful in them, the difference begins to seem rather vague at best.

Arguably, the same could be said of games. Sure, there are a disproportionate number of male game designers, and the demographics for game consumers still slant towards men (though far less so than they used to.) But if female gamers rarely see characters they find relatable, if the culture that surrounds games constantly treats them as little more than eye candy whether they're characters or fans at a convention- why would that change? How many people are stubborn enough to devote large parts of their lives to becoming part of a community that seems to disdain them? It ends up being a closed circle: developers rise out of a community of mostly male gamers, they make games that mostly appeal to male gamers, the next generation of gamers are people those games appeal to, and so on.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying that every game needs a female character, or that developers must needs succumb to some sort of draconian quota system until we see an ass-kicking female action hero for every ass-kicking male action hero. I can sympathize with a statement like the one made by The Puppeteer's creator: I made the game I chose to make, and what business is it of yours; play it, or don't. Art doesn't thrive in an environment where the artist has to constantly second-guess him or herself, relying less on what is true in their heart and more on what some cautious demographic study says the audience wants to see.

But I do think there's room for far more female characters, and far more interesting female characters, than we are currently seeing; I think it's appalling that studios like Dontnod have to fight against the presumption that a female lead is commercially untenable, and that more creators should take making games with female characters on as an interesting challenge rather than a burden. If nothing else, our era has seen plenty of complaints about samey brown-and-grey cover-based shooter games; bringing in new perspectives has a potential to spark creativity, rather than restrict it.
 

Raikas

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Thr33X said:
If something bothers you, then don't interact with it. Don't like Dragon's Crown? Don't play it. Hell, if you don't have a PS3 or Vita you CAN'T play it, so why even talk about something you can't even experience for yourself? Because everyone wants to be a critic, expert, pundit, what have you and try to force their near-sighted agenda on a medium that at it's base is about fantasy, escapism and FUN. So if something's not fun, or you find something about a game objectionable, go find something else that's to your liking instead. When did that stop being a solution?
I think a lot of the complaints about representation aren't actually about people who are considering playing the game and decide to/decide not to - it's about the people who don't pay attention to games at all, and about getting them interested. And that's not necessarily about equality or any socially important movement, that's just about business. There's an untapped market, so how can they be made to feel welcome.

I used to see this same discussion come up in comic book circles in the late 90s - given that comic book sales are so much lower than game sales, it was more obvious that it was about increasing sales - but the conversations were pretty similar. There's a demographic of people that aren't buying the product in high numbers relative to other demographics - how do we lure them in.

So saying "If you don't like it, don't play it" while fair in general, isn't really a solution to that particular problem, because that untapped market doesn't even know that Dragon's Crown (or whatever other game) exists. That's the answer to a different question.
 

Netrigan

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Truly, it's simple consumerism.

Women are becoming a more and more important part of video game sales. They have, as consumers tend to do, have requested something.

That's "requested", not "demanded", because in an industry overflowing with silly boycotts over stuff not being exactly how they want it to be, I'm not aware of any boycotts over games failing to put more female characters in their games. Seriously, women are acting more sensible and mature than many male gamers, so let's put what happening in some sort of perspective.

And largely they're getting the runaround from companies and absolutely hysterics from male gamers, because far be it for companies to put in a bit of effort to widen their market.
 

Specter Von Baren

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FieryTrainwreck said:
The vast majority of video game sexism comes straight from Japan or Korea, full stop. Dead or Alive. Dragon's Crown. Tera. Metroid: Other M. Bayonetta. Lollipop Chainsaw. On and on. Western game developers, relatively speaking, have already turned the corner. The majority of video game protagonists are still mid-30s white dudes with brown hair, but that has everything to do with the high-risk of AAA game development and little to do with gender equality.

The Asian region also gives precisely zero fucks about Western ideas concerning gender. When the DOA creator was under fire for his designs, he basically told his Western critics to fuck off. When Dragon's Crown's lead artist was under similar scrutiny, he responded with offensive jokes and dismissals. Hideo Kojima is unapologetically amping up the sex appeal for the next MGS.

I guess I'm trying to say that these conversations seem to be occurring almost exclusively in the West, but Western devs are no longer the problem.
Actually, I think you have that backwards. You're looking at the sexualization side of things, but look at the actual use of female characters. By FAR Japan has way way way WAAAAAYYYY more female characters, both in leading and support roles, and do far more in their roles. It's the West that's so resistant to putting women in their games.

I think it might be because of the same thing you said, the Asian region gives precisely zero fucks. And because they give zero fucks, they'll use their females in any role they want without trying to make them this or that thing, they don't care about offending someone or being politically correct so they end up having women more freely.

There will be fanservice, but the thing is, often times they'll have fanservice but still make the females good characters, they get to eat their cake and have it too.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Raikas said:
Thr33X said:
If something bothers you, then don't interact with it. Don't like Dragon's Crown? Don't play it. Hell, if you don't have a PS3 or Vita you CAN'T play it, so why even talk about something you can't even experience for yourself? Because everyone wants to be a critic, expert, pundit, what have you and try to force their near-sighted agenda on a medium that at it's base is about fantasy, escapism and FUN. So if something's not fun, or you find something about a game objectionable, go find something else that's to your liking instead. When did that stop being a solution?
I think a lot of the complaints about representation aren't actually about people who are considering playing the game and decide to/decide not to - it's about the people who don't pay attention to games at all, and about getting them interested. And that's not necessarily about equality or any socially important movement, that's just about business. There's an untapped market, so how can they be made to feel welcome.

I used to see this same discussion come up in comic book circles in the late 90s - given that comic book sales are so much lower than game sales, it was more obvious that it was about increasing sales - but the conversations were pretty similar. There's a demographic of people that aren't buying the product in high numbers relative to other demographics - how do we lure them in.

So saying "If you don't like it, don't play it" while fair in general, isn't really a solution to that particular problem, because that untapped market doesn't even know that Dragon's Crown (or whatever other game) exists. That's the answer to a different question.
Okay, I'm tired of hearing this argument brought up all the time with none of us trying to figure out what the answer is. Is the answer that women don't want to play those games because there aren't enough female protagonists or is the answer that women don't want to play those games even if there ARE female protagonists? We need to go to some forum that isn't about games and set up a poll asking the women of the forum that don't play games if they'd be interested if a game had a female protagonist... or SOMETHING, I'm tired of seeing this argument go back and forth when we can just go and ask people.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Maybe if women committed more violent crimes in real life they'd be considered more often as criminal protagonists.

Just saying.
 

Netrigan

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MeChaNiZ3D said:
Maybe if women committed more violent crimes in real life they'd be considered more often as criminal protagonists.

Just saying.


Can we get Al Pacino to play her in the movie?

Seriously, this is Griselda Blanco, the woman who turned Miami into a war zone in the late 70s and early 80s.
 

Netrigan

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Besides, women would probably lose out if they demanded gender equality. Given the ever increasing gender gap in college, women could be the ones out-earning men in another decade or two.

I can't help but wonder if a lot of the flak women have been getting in geek circles stems from the way they dominate genres and mediums they take a mind to dominate. Make no mistake, women are going to radically change the face of geek culture in the coming years. They're not a minority you can over-whelm with numbers, they are the majority and their numbers are only going to grow.
 

Abomination

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Netrigan said:
MeChaNiZ3D said:
Maybe if women committed more violent crimes in real life they'd be considered more often as criminal protagonists.

Just saying.


Can we get Al Pacino to play her in the movie?

Seriously, this is Griselda Blanco, the woman who turned Miami into a war zone in the late 70s and early 80s.
An exception doesn't negate a trend <.<
 

Raikas

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Specter Von Baren said:
Okay, I'm tired of hearing this argument brought up all the time with none of us trying to figure out what the answer is. Is the answer that women don't want to play those games because there aren't enough female protagonists or is the answer that women don't want to play those games even if there ARE female protagonists? We need to go to some forum that isn't about games and set up a poll asking the women of the forum that don't play games if they'd be interested if a game had a female protagonist... or SOMETHING, I'm tired of seeing this argument go back and forth when we can just go and ask people.
I think that's because there's no single answer - that's something for major market research to answer, not people chatting on message boards.

Posting a question on a random non-gaming forum still isn't hard evidence; it's just a different opinion pool. For what it's worth I do post on another board that's majority female - a home improvement board where the majority of the posters are females between 32-48 (there are a few younger, a few older, a few males, but 80% are in that one demographic).

In the off-topic section there is a gaming thread, and there are a decent number of people who talk about games, but I suspect that only two or three would fit the narrowest definition of "gamer" that some people talk about here (I personally think that's too narrow - if you play games, you should be a gamer IMO, but that's getting away from the main topic).

Obviously this is just more anecdotal stuff, but for most of the people there it seems to be mostly the case that no one introduced them to gaming when they were younger, so they didn't develop the affinity for it. Some aren't interested at all, but that's true of guys as well.

Of the ones who have some interest, I see a fair number of women there who watch their husbands or kids game and are curious, but either don't feel like they have the skill or don't have the time (so that's a vote at marketing games to both boys and girls). I see a few who still play the occasional adventure game or who play a lot of casual games but don't feel welcome on gaming sites like this because their interest is too narrow (that's a vote at changing the way we talk about gaming).

I see a few who are more involved in the "fandom" side, and I've heard a couple of them comment on being afraid to join gaming forums or go to cons because of the sense that they're male-dominated at best and misogynistic at worst (that's a vote for both changing the discussion and representation). I've seen some people who only play a couple of games a year - and often ones with character customization (that's a vote for in-game representation)*. And then obviously there are the few who don't care and play "like a guy" anyway.

So even my statistically insignificant sample group, there are 6 different answers to that question - and that's a fairly narrow age group that I'm talking to there, so I'd think that a wider one would give you even more of a variety of responses.

*ETA: This is probably an age/family thing more than anything else - most of the guys I know who have kids and are majorly involved in the childcare stuff don't have time for more than that either.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Specter Von Baren said:
Actually, I think you have that backwards. You're looking at the sexualization side of things, but look at the actual use of female characters. By FAR Japan has way way way WAAAAAYYYY more female characters, both in leading and support roles, and do far more in their roles. It's the West that's so resistant to putting women in their games.
I really don't think this is how the conversation goes in the West. If you're a developer with a fair amount of autonomy, and you want to use a female character for this or that, I'm pretty sure you just do it. If you're in bed with a major publisher and effectively playing with their tens of millions, of course some suit is going to tell you to make the lead character a 30 year old white male with brown hair. As long as that is the largest single demographic buying games in the West, they will be catered to by most every AAA title. It doesn't matter if it's 90% or 51% or even 30% - as long as that demo is the largest slice of the pie, it makes financial sense to target it. Every. Damn. Time. Sucks, but I don't know how else you feed the beast. Capitalism can be a *****.

I think it might be because of the same thing you said, the Asian region gives precisely zero fucks. And because they give zero fucks, they'll use their females in any role they want without trying to make them this or that thing, they don't care about offending someone or being politically correct so they end up having women more freely.

There will be fanservice, but the thing is, often times they'll have fanservice but still make the females good characters, they get to eat their cake and have it too.
Eh, I dunno about that. I feel like the vast majority of female characters in Asian games are extremely cliche and insulting. Sure, there are a lot of them, but they're almost all vapid caricatures designed to titillate boys and men. The West isn't stuffing fan-service into every major release these days - hardly any of them do it like the Asian games - but this has also created a dearth of female leads for financial reasons.

If I have to choose between an abundance of insulting depictions or comparatively few, higher quality depictions, I'd choose the latter. But I'll openly admit that I dislike a large majority of Japanese games. My favorites tend to be the ones with almost no story at all because I honestly can't stand their tropes.
 

Specter Von Baren

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FieryTrainwreck said:
I really don't think this is how the conversation goes in the West. If you're a developer with a fair amount of autonomy, and you want to use a female character for this or that, I'm pretty sure you just do it. If you're in bed with a major publisher and effectively playing with their tens of millions, of course some suit is going to tell you to make the lead character a 30 year old white male with brown hair. As long as that is the largest single demographic buying games in the West, they will be catered to by most every AAA title. It doesn't matter if it's 90% or 51% or even 30% - as long as that demo is the largest slice of the pie, it makes financial sense to target it. Every. Damn. Time. Sucks, but I don't know how else you feed the beast. Capitalism can be a *****.
What you just said doesn't refute anything I said. Regardless of who is the source of it, my point was that the west does this more than the east.

FieryTrainwreck said:
Eh, I dunno about that. I feel like the vast majority of female characters in Asian games are extremely cliche and insulting. Sure, there are a lot of them, but they're almost all vapid caricatures designed to titillate boys and men. The West isn't stuffing fan-service into every major release these days - hardly any of them do it like the Asian games - but this has also created a dearth of female leads for financial reasons.

If I have to choose between an abundance of insulting depictions or comparatively few, higher quality depictions, I'd choose the latter. But I'll openly admit that I dislike a large majority of Japanese games. My favorites tend to be the ones with almost no story at all because I honestly can't stand their tropes.
Examples please. Not of cliches, we could both argue endlessly about whether this or that is a cliche and ultimately, most characters you can point to are "cliche" in some way. I want examples of insulting females from Japanese games. Give me at least... ten from different game series that are not something like DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball.
 

Abomination

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Abomination said:
An exception doesn't negate a trend <.<
Have you read these forums? That's how 90% of the counterpoints are constructed here.
Don't forget unreasonable demands for scientific, peer reviewed evidence for truths that are essentially self-evident to anyone with even rudimentary life experience.

Specter Von Baren said:
Examples please. Not of cliches, we could both argue endlessly about whether this or that is a cliche and ultimately, most characters you can point to are "cliche" in some way. I want examples of insulting females from Japanese games. Give me at least... ten from different game series that are not something like DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball.
I honestly can't remember because I have put down more Eastern games because of these issues than I can recall... hell, I don't even play Eastern games anymore because I believe they can't tell a decent story or have decent characters to save their lives.

You don't want to talk about clichés? Well, too bad because that's what the East has in droves. Women dressing in incredibly impractical attire and throwing fits over the most pointless bullshit.

Final Fantasy is a good example of shitty female characters... or rather women behaving erratically because they're women - the series.

The crossover between Anime and Eastern Games can not be ignored as it all stems from the same culture. If you want the perfect example as to how insulting the East can be towards women take a look at Berserk. A great anime let down by some incredibly fucked up ideas. I swear there was an entire episode devoted to calling women weak and incapable of battle because they might have a period.
 

white_wolf

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I don't think fem gamers or males who'd like to see fem leads are saying that we HAVE TO HAVE equal male to female hero ratios only the feminist who don't play games seem to be saying this to overwhelm everything.

What the majority of gamers who support/want fem leads are saying however is to get more well written, less eye candy fem leads in the hero roles with scripts written for them (not written for males then given to the girl to play male with boobs role). Right now looking at the up and coming with defined m/f leads I see (xbox360) 1fem/31Male lead games, (PS3) 4fem/32 male, (Xbox1) 0fem/ 15male (WII) 1fem/5male (PS4) 0fem/15male and (WIIU) 3fem/14male coming out so obviously we need to up the fem count.

It's no secret several past games who wanted fem leads got talked out of it by developers or share holders and switched the role to male see Sleeping Dogs for example this group was dissuaded from making a fem lead if game creators want to make fem leads for their A - AAA games then they shouldn't be pressured out of it no one is saying make the current COD Ghost male lead(s) into fem leads or split it down the middle right now! Shoe horn them in. No, people say if the game maker was planning to make a game with a fem lead they should be not only allowed to make that game in its original form but given the same marketing budgit as a male lead game to actually market it properly. Fem games shouldn't have the deck stacked against them for A - AAA games to only let the indie's handle making fem lead games that only some people might see and download.
 

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Abomination said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
Abomination said:
An exception doesn't negate a trend <.<
Have you read these forums? That's how 90% of the counterpoints are constructed here.
Don't forget unreasonable demands for scientific, peer reviewed evidence for truths that are essentially self-evident to anyone with even rudimentary life experience.

Specter Von Baren said:
Examples please. Not of cliches, we could both argue endlessly about whether this or that is a cliche and ultimately, most characters you can point to are "cliche" in some way. I want examples of insulting females from Japanese games. Give me at least... ten from different game series that are not something like DoA Extreme Beach Volleyball.
I honestly can't remember because I have put down more Eastern games because of these issues than I can recall... hell, I don't even play Eastern games anymore because I believe they can't tell a decent story or have decent characters to save their lives.

You don't want to talk about clichés? Well, too bad because that's what the East has in droves. Women dressing in incredibly impractical attire and throwing fits over the most pointless bullshit.

Final Fantasy is a good example of shitty female characters... or rather women behaving erratically because they're women - the series.

The crossover between Anime and Eastern Games can not be ignored as it all stems from the same culture. If you want the perfect example as to how insulting the East can be towards women take a look at Berserk. A great anime let down by some incredibly fucked up ideas. I swear there was an entire episode devoted to calling women weak and incapable of battle because they might have a period.
..... Look. The reason this is a stupid freaking thing to talk about is because BOTH East and West have their own stupid cliches that they use over and over and over again, this isn't something that pertains solely to one cardinal direction or the other, it's a standard of media.

And did you seriously just look at one type of character, the tsundere, and generalize it to all of the women?

As for your comment about Final Fantasy.... *sigh* Just because you want to make a point doesn't mean you should charge in and say bull, keep a cool head and think about what you're doing. Final Fantasy has many female characters that are good and I've never seen a single one that behaves erratically because they were a woman. Give. Examples.

For example. Faris, Adel, Celes, Terra, Aerith, Lulu, Ritz. Several female characters that are capable in the final fantasy series and don't act like idiots, or overly-emotional insults to all of women kind.

As for Berserk, I can't speak of that because I don't read it and I haven't watched it but that's one example. One example does not speak of the entirety of a culture's media.