Is it really an issue of gender equality?

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Nuxxy

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After watching the latest Jimquisition ("Creative Freedom, Strings Attached"), and following gaming on "the internets" of late, there is a lot of voice (not specifically Jim's) given to 'gender equality' being a pressing issue for games, gaming and gamers.

They do say if you want to fix a problem you must first acknowledge it. And I just don't think gender equality is the real issue. There are comments speaking about the number of male protagonists vs. female protagonists. But that isn't what gender equality is about.

Gender equality is about equal opportunity (the same applies to race, etc). As an example, look at education. In some times and places, women were denied the right to an education. So were black people, and other favoured prejudices. That is an issue of equality. If, say, a university denied access to women.

If, on the other hand, there was no policy barring women from enrolling in any class of choice, but instead gender became irrelevant to an application, that would be equality. Now say someone was worried that 90% of the students enrolling in Engineering were male, that would not be an issue of "gender equality". This is what would be called a problem of "gender diversification".

I know it may just be arguing semantics, but there are key differences. No one is being denied their rights - as a matter of fact, the 'issue' arises from people exercising their rights - choosing for or against Engineering as a course. The issue is a 'cosmetic' one - there is nothing really wrong with 90% of Engineering students being male, and also nothing to prevent a future time where the proportion is reversed - but it "looks bad". In the example, what usually happens is that the University enforces a policy to favour female applicants. But this is inherent discrimination, and should never be looked at positively (at best a "necessary evil").

I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?

tl;dr - It's not about sexism or gender equality...it's about the lack of a natural diversity of protagonists. There is no simple solution, and attacking any creator's choice of gender for their creation is going away from a solution, not towards it. What say you?
 

IllumInaTIma

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Feb 6, 2012
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You actually put it quite nicely in TLDR.
For me it's not about equality or feminism or whatever. I'm just fucking tired of those countless half-naked, chainmail bikini female characters. "Oh wow, fantasy setting, what do females wear? Chainmail bikinis or revealing clothes. Woohoo". It's lazy and uncreative! It came to the point that a girl wearing a green jacket (you know who I'm talking about) is better designed that 90% of females in gaming! Give us better written and designed female characters. That's all I ask.
 

The Madman

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Yes... well, sorta anyway. I don't think it's malevolent or even really done on purpose, but even so there's definitely a gender disparity in gaming. Not only in the lack of female protagonist but also in how women in gaming as so often portrayed. It's a bit embarrassing truth be told.

Plus I'm getting pretty damed sick of playing 30-something rugged men, often with shaved heads and gruff voice. Even dismissing charges of sexism and such I do wish there was more diversity in gaming protagonist and characters. It's getting boring.

Think that's why Femshep and female Boss from Saints Row appeal to me so much. It's a nice change of pace from the gaming norms.
 

Zhukov

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Funny thing.

I come down firmly on the side that wants more female protagonists and less playboy bunnies wearing three links of chainmail.

However, I don't hold that view because I oppose sexism or misogyny (I've always thought those terms are a bit misused in this context). Nor objectification (I've never been entirely clear on what constitutes objectification). Nor equality or representation.

Nope, none of that. I'm not saying the people who do cite those issues don't have a valid point. They very well might, I don't know. However, that isn't my beef.

No, I simply like interesting characters. And, despite being white, 20-something, brown-haired and male, I'm a little tired of all the focus being on the white, brown-haired, 30-something male characters. Now, that's not to say those characters can't be good, Joel from The Last of Us ticks most of those boxes and he was still great. But would it really kill us to see a bit of fucking variety? I enjoyed the hell out of Lee and Clementine's journey through The Walking Dead despite them both being black. I enjoyed paragoning (mostly) my way through the Mass Effect series as Femshep despite her having a set of ovaries. I want the opportunity for more experiences like that. I don't want 90% of potential characters reduced to sidekicks and eye candy.

Speaking of eye candy, I don't enjoy being blatantly pandered to. I am not remotely impressed when some improbably proportioned cheerleader jiggle-physics her way across the battlefield in a structurally unsound outfit while loudly complimenting my avatar's undeniably alluring masculine qualities. Believe it or not, this does not make my penis go hard. It just makes my eyes want to roll clear out of their sockets. "Hey, you're male! You like breasts! Here are some breasts! See how they jiggle? We removed as much of that troublesome fabric as we could get away with so you could see them better! Our game totally has breasts! As previously established, you like breasts! So now you like our game!" If you're going to pander to me then please at least be sufficiently subtle about it that I either can't tell or can convince myself that it isn't the case.

So no, for me it is not an issue of gender equality. It's an issue of variety, quality and subtlety.

However, if fixing my issues were to have the side effect of fixing equality issues then I'm fine with that too.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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I would add few thing

1) There is a reason why females are dressed skimpier than males even in gender neutral games. Adn that reason is how male and female sexual preferences work. I remember from long time ago reading social study done through grading photos of opposite gender. In case of male subjects, they graded young fit women in skimpy lingerie or naked as most desirable and sexy. In case of female subjects most desirable were photos of fit 25-40 males that had clothing that represented wealth, power or authority and also showed their fitness. After days of digging through Google, could not find that study, yet I remember it clearly. If you take a look at male and female magazines, they reflect this notion to the letter.

2) There is cultural background to male domination as action heroes, but also biological ones. Gender dynamics that kept women away from as much danger as possible is what made human race such a success when survival of entire race was in question. Later, when tribes discovered that leaving group without females will eradicate them, protecting females from other humans became even more of an imperative. Result is that males are more aggressive, as their jobs required such behavior, but females are more on survival side which is what they did for millenniums. That did not change to this day. The fact that men on average as a group, not counting maternity leaves, have dominant amount of time dedicated to their jobs compared to women on average as a group and 93-98% of workplace death rate that are male attest to that. Simply put, as a group, males tend to bite longer, stronger and more careless.

3) We must separate notions of discrimination and different preferences. If one group have preferences that do not coincide with another group and therefore is not willing to abandon its preferences that is not discrimination against that other group. It would be if that preference is harmful to the other group, otherwise we have discrimination of first group by attempting to force them to change their preferences.
 

Yuuki

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I don't consider any portrayal of fictional videogame characters to be an issue of gender equality. Gender equality is very much a matter of equal rights / equal opportunity between men and women, something that can only take place among people with a mind of their own and free will as human beings - i.e. NOT Lara Croft and NOT Princess fucking Peach. They don't have a mind of their own, they don't possess free will, they don't have any rights as fictional characters.

So if people feel that Lara Croft is sexist, then they need to stop beating around the bush and take their concerns straight to Eidos/Square Enix. If they feel the need to criticize the lack of agency of Princess Peach, take it up with Shigeru Miyamoto. Princess Peach is nothing more than a bunch of pixels created by him, something that came from his mind. Fictional beings have no rights or free will, they have no say - gender equality is irrelevant to them.

Publishers stopping developers from having female protagonists in games or females on the box art - even that has nothing to do with gender equality. It is simply publishers being paranoid and money-hungry to the point where they want to flood the market with what sells and eliminate anything that doesn't top charts (according to their own statistics, which may be skewed/flawed).

So if publishers discovered that games with blue boxes sold better than games red boxes and proceeded to stop developers from having red colors on their box art (even if they wanted to), would you call it a fucking gender equality issue? Of course not, you would simply call it stupidity/paranoia/desperation and leave it at that.

It DOES need to stop, but it is NOT a sexism/gender equality issue at it's core. I wish people understood this.

IllumInaTIma said:
I'm just fucking tired of those countless half-naked, chainmail bikini female characters. "Oh wow, fantasy setting, what do females wear? Chainmail bikinis or revealing clothes. Woohoo". It's lazy and uncreative! It came to the point that a girl wearing a green jacket (you know who I'm talking about) is better designed that 90% of females in gaming!
Question, say there was a game where females have 10 armor options, 4 are revealing/sexy, 6 are covered/fully-clothed. Would you call those 4 sets lazy and uncreative? Or would you say they are simply adding variety to the total of 10 options presented?

What I'm getting at is that while it would be nice to see females get more fully-covered options, it would be a very sad day (for me at least) if bikini/sexy armor was eliminated completely. The whole reason it came into fashion in the first place was because it was very well-received by MMO/Fantasy RPG players (in general, overall). It still is, considering that if you forced MMO players to choose between a revealing/sexy armor set vs a fully-covered armor set (female avatars only), at least half will pick the sexy one. The demand is big!

E.g. In Guild Wars 2 I keep switching my Elementalist (mage/sorcerer) between looking like this:

To this:

Depending on my flavor o' the month. I love sexy outfits :D
 

M0tty

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Nuxxy said:
I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?
Of course, this is a self-reinforcing problem. All the white men writing from a white male perspective means people who aren't white males are less likely to be involved in the industry. Perhaps something needs to be done in order to break the cycle.
 

IllumInaTIma

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Feb 6, 2012
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Yuuki said:
IllumInaTIma said:
I'm just fucking tired of those countless half-naked, chainmail bikini female characters. "Oh wow, fantasy setting, what do females wear? Chainmail bikinis or revealing clothes. Woohoo". It's lazy and uncreative! It came to the point that a girl wearing a green jacket (you know who I'm talking about) is better designed that 90% of females in gaming!
Question, say there was a game where females have 10 armor options, 4 are revealing/sexy, 6 are covered/fully-clothed. Would you call those 4 sets lazy and uncreative? Or would you say they are simply adding variety to the total of 10 options presented?

What I'm getting at is that while it would be nice to see females get more fully-covered options, it would be a very sad day (for me at least) if bikini/sexy armor was eliminated completely. The whole reason it came into fashion in the first place was because it was very well-received by MMO/Fantasy RPG players (in general, overall). It still is, considering that if you forced MMO players to choose between a revealing/sexy armor set vs a fully-covered armor set (female avatars only), at least half will pick the sexy one. The demand is big!

E.g. In Guild Wars 2 I keep switching my Elementalist (mage/sorcerer) between looking like this:

To this:

Depending on my flavor o' the month. I love sexy outfits :D
I do agree with you, to certain extent. For example, Tera online takes that chainmail bikini idea and cranks it up to 11.Female (and male) clothing options are ridiculous, but some of them are simply gorgeous, wildly creative while still being glorified and revealing armored underwear.
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/59/highelf_f_r27.jpg>
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/57/highelf_f_l21.jpg>
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/59/highelf_f_r19.jpg>
 

Tanakh

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Nuxxy said:
I think gender equality is a big issue, have worked with abused females and their stories are scary. For me however gender equality in videogames is a non issue.
 

carnex

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Jan 9, 2008
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IllumInaTIma said:
I do agree with you, to certain extent. For example, Tera online takes that chainmail bikini idea and cranks it up to 11.Female (and male) clothing options are ridiculous, but some of them are simply gorgeous, wildly creative while still being glorified and revealing armored underwear.
You have no idea where this things are going. Take a look at Lineage 2, especially Dark Elves to see how many interpretation on armored lingerie there are. Just don't say you were not warned. But its just one click away
https://www.google.rs/search?q=lineage+dark+elf&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hIMuUpGXCIzWsgbr34CwAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=955
 

Yuuki

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carnex said:
You have no idea where this things are going. Take a look at Lineage 2, especially Dark Elves to see how many interpretation on armored lingerie there are. Just don't say you were not warned. But its just one click away
https://www.google.rs/search?q=lineage+dark+elf&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hIMuUpGXCIzWsgbr34CwAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=955
When you say "this things are going" I presume you are talking about the direction games are heading in (i.e. current and future)...which can't be right, because Lineage 2 released in 2003. That's 10 years ago.

It's better to refer to more modern MMO's. For e.g. I'll list some of the top MMO's this year and how much "bikini armor factor" they have to my knowledge. The worse it is, the lower the score.

World Of Warcraft - 9/10 - hugely diverse sets, overwhelming majority are fully-covering
Guild Wars 2 - 7/10 - hugely diverse sets, almost all heavy & medium armor is fully-covering, only light armor has lots of revealing sets
Rift - 8/10 - A lot like WoW but with the visuals ramped up, few revealing female sets here & there
TERA - 3/10 - Through the damn roof in bikini armor
SW:ToR - 9/10 - Almost like WoW when it comes to female armor sets, maybe even better
EVE Online - No idea, thought this was a tactical/spaceship simulator o_O

carnex said:
I do agree with you, to certain extent. For example, Tera online takes that chainmail bikini idea and cranks it up to 11.Female (and male) clothing options are ridiculous, but some of them are simply gorgeous, wildly creative while still being glorified and revealing armored underwear.
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/59/highelf_f_r27.jpg>
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/57/highelf_f_l21.jpg>
<img src=http://tera-online.cc/uploads/gallery/main/59/highelf_f_r19.jpg>
As explained above your bikini armor frustration is largely irrelevant to the most popular MMO's and mostly only relevant to Asian MMO's these days, which is aimed at a rather different (and smaller) market altogether.
 

Do4600

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Nuxxy, I have to say I agree with much of what you wrote. It's less about gender inequality and more about a complete lack of variety within the medium. What video gaming needs is a leap into post-modernism, we need an enriched diversity within the the developers pool. I think that would solve most of the problems in the subject matter of video games.
carnex said:
IllumInaTIma said:
I do agree with you, to certain extent. For example, Tera online takes that chainmail bikini idea and cranks it up to 11.Female (and male) clothing options are ridiculous, but some of them are simply gorgeous, wildly creative while still being glorified and revealing armored underwear.
You have no idea where this things are going. Take a look at Lineage 2, especially Dark Elves to see how many interpretation on armored lingerie there are. Just don't say you were not warned. But its just one click away
https://www.google.rs/search?q=lineage+dark+elf&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=hIMuUpGXCIzWsgbr34CwAw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=955
Darwin's beard! Can a garment cover any less of the mons pubis?
 

Rebel_Raven

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Yeah, I pretty much agree with what you have to say, Nuxxy. 'z why I generally distance myself and opinions away from feminism, and representatives of feminism. I'm not on some social crusade, though I don't doubt that a world with more female protagonists in wide variety will have some impact somehow. It's just not my goal. Diversity is my goal first and foremost.

I generally don't attack a natural decision made by the developer to have a male protagonist. It grinds my gears when they cut, or replace a female protagonist in the process, though. Also when someone tells them to change something and they cave, too. Basically if it gets in the way of a female protagonist that could have been, 'm gunna get a bit irked to say the least.

I have no problem calling sexism, though coz it's there in definition as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't matter if the characters are real, they represent a sex, and there's stereotypes, predjudices, and so forth aimed at men and women.
 

Abomination

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M0tty said:
Nuxxy said:
I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?
Of course, this is a self-reinforcing problem. All the white men writing from a white male perspective means people who aren't white males are less likely to be involved in the industry. Perhaps something needs to be done in order to break the cycle.
But -what- is to be done?

The only methods that would be effective in combating the status quo would require affirmative action.

We can not try and police preferences.
 

Something Amyss

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Nuxxy said:
No one is being denied their rights - as a matter of fact, the 'issue' arises from people exercising their rights - choosing for or against Engineering as a course.
Women are discouraged from mathematics and sciences as well as from playing video games. While the latter might be argued not a right, certainly they have the right to choose education and the concept of discouraging them inhibits such a right to freely choose.

Regardless, the issue at hand exists despite semantic arguments: for whatever reason (and there are a lot of them), people want more women in games. Attempting to dispute one makes little difference to the sum of the point.
 

Abomination

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Nuxxy said:
No one is being denied their rights - as a matter of fact, the 'issue' arises from people exercising their rights - choosing for or against Engineering as a course.
Women are discouraged from mathematics and sciences as well as from playing video games. While the latter might be argued not a right, certainly they have the right to choose education and the concept of discouraging them inhibits such a right to freely choose.

Regardless, the issue at hand exists despite semantic arguments: for whatever reason (and there are a lot of them), people want more women in games. Attempting to dispute one makes little difference to the sum of the point.
Define "discouraged". People expressing an opinion isn't someone being denied anything.

People do not have a right to not be discouraged.

As long as a woman isn't denied a job or a course because she's a woman then there's nothing that people can do or even should do to change the situation.
 

Ninjat_126

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M0tty said:
Nuxxy said:
I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?
Of course, this is a self-reinforcing problem. All the white men writing from a white male perspective means people who aren't white males are less likely to be involved in the industry. Perhaps something needs to be done in order to break the cycle.
I'm not a writer, but I occasionally do come up with ideas. And one thing I try to (almost) always do is run through a list of the characters and themes I'm covering in the story outline, and then deliberately try to diversify them.*

Generally, I think writers might just need to do the same sort of thing. The issue is tokenisation, of course. Having one and only one member of a "minority" group (god I hate that phrase) or one and only one female can kind of pull you into a trap of some sort.

* Of course, nothing I plan ever gets written, let alone published.
 

Strain42

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Zhukov said:
Speaking of eye candy, I don't enjoy being blatantly pandered to. I am not remotely impressed when some improbably proportioned cheerleader jiggle-physics her way across the battlefield in a structurally unsound outfit while loudly complimenting my avatar's undeniably alluring masculine qualities. Believe it or not, this does not make my penis go hard. It just makes my eyes want to roll clear out of their sockets. "Hey, you're male! You like breasts! Here are some breasts! See how they jiggle? We removed as much of that troublesome fabric as we could get away with so you could see them better! Our game totally has breasts! As previously established, you like breasts! So now you like our game!" If you're going to pander to me then please at least be sufficiently subtle about it that I either can't tell or can convince myself that it isn't the case.
This basically sums up my feelings about the Senran Kagura games that seems to have quite a lot of gamers jumping for jiggle joy right now, and for some reason when you point this out to them they get oddly defensive about it and lash back pretty harsh.

That games level of pandering just makes me incredibly uncomfortable, and it honestly makes me sad that it seems to be WORKING so well on people.

I'm glad that game didn't get a physical release, because if it did, I'd be afraid that any time you see it used on the shelf it'd probably be sticky, and I don't wanna imagine what its had to see.
 

white_wolf

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Many female gamers and some males who want to see more fem protagonists aren't saying it for feminism they are saying it because they would either (A) like the diversity a fem pro brings with her unique prospective or (2) want the fem pro done so that they have an avatar to relate to white males or males who aren't picky about their leads like male leads to relate to women however do not have the fem leads very often to relate to especially in modern gaming back in the 90's there were more fem leads to pick from and as a result fem players could relate to their stories more personally.

The fem prospective in a male's play ground is lacking most fem players aren't calling for games to be made with tinted glasses in order for the fem hero to make sense. Would a fem gamer still play AC1 if the protagonist was a woman who got lots of flack during the first half of the game because no one wanted to believe a female was a serious assassin? Probably. Why? Because if a woman was to undertake that role IRL they already expect to be taken not seriously and would find it unrealistic for their fem lead to just be taken seriously because the title on the box says AC1. Male gamers however expect their leads to be taken seriously by all npcs right out the gate.

Game developers I guess think that women are very different from males maybe to normal people this is true but fem gamers aren't too different from male gamers we want great stories, great characters, and good mechanics.

Having a prespective shift wouldn't hurt the industry either a fem hero would look at a scenario differently from males in some regards like to use a scene from ME: A spector who is betraying your group after convincing you she was on your side shows her true colors by trying to kill your friend. Well male shep runs into her and throws them both out the window crashing to the ground below a dumb move from a female prospective, the devs obviously wanted the window to shatter and the spector to get away and while this scene can make sense for a male whose only working on instinct not thought at the moment you'd think femshep wouldn't do the same thoughtless action she would instead call for Liara to biotic shove the girl or (if shep is a biotic do it herself) or let the spector shoot the window out herself and leap out while she order Liara or if a biotic does it herself or if solider class link up a line and repeal down to go after the fleeing woman. In other words different problem solving skills could be implemented in games because in some cases women would do things differently then men.

We'd also gain better physical representations in games that have more diversity of all characters in the game. Look at Beyond two souls do you see the men hyper muscled? Nope there isn't a high standard there is the fem lead all busty and showing off so much skin she could be mistaken for a hooker? Nope Is the fem lead donned in a tight black dress to go out on the town but in game isn't dong anything like that and is instead killing all the cops in the city? Nope both male and females in this game are shown fairly average, dressed for the game's occasions, and gamers seam to like this no more power fantasy just normal people dealing with extraordinary issues.

More stories isn't something to be shunned unless you're looking to make the game industry crash again by rehashing the same old one trick pony show which seems to be how the AAA studios like it and customers aren't yet prepared to demand better and more varied shows.