Is it selfish to prevent people from commiting suicide?

[GigaHz]

Suicide is a selfish act in and of itself.

Just because it's your life doesn't mean that your being alive has no affect on the people around you. If you chose to take it for whatever reason, you are going to leave a lasting impact on those who cared about you. Not only is that beyond messed up, it's probably one of the cruelest things you can do to those you care about.

Preventing suicide is a noble action. Why hindering suicide would be labeled as a bad thing is a mystery to me.

But, as with everything, there are grey areas.

In order for someone to successfully take their own life, they have to be severely detached from reality through mental illness or dealing with unbearable amounts of pain that they are unable to control with medication. The only kind of suicide I would support would be the latter, especially if they are physically unable to do the act themselves.

The circumstances are different though. Someone with mental illness may be able to find peace of mind through treatment or counselling. By having someone who cares about them insist they seek treatment, they are doing so for the benefit of the troubled person. They aren't thinking: 'Oh, be alive so I can feel better about MY life' as that would make them sociopaths.

 

[Joccaren]

That depends on the type of suicide. If you had a rough time at work for months, or have been bullied badly at school for months, so you decide to kill yourself; that is the person killing themselves being selfish. It will have a negative affect on everyone, and there are often better methods of dealing with the situation.
If someone has a medical condition like depression, neither side is being selfish, but a close eye should be kept on the person with depression.
If there is someone very sick or very old, with no relatives living, or at least no relatives who object to their suicide, then it is selfish to prevent them from doing such. We do it to animals all the time when they are too old or too sick, why can we not do it to humans? It is considered kind to do it to an animal who is suffering, but to a human it is considered kind not to. Some of it will come down to the ethical part for doctors in care of these people who have promised to do no harm, though that is a tough subject when arguably more harm is being done by letting them live.
It really depends on the circumstances as to whether it is being selfish or not (And by the way, even though you are just asking whether it is selfish to stop someone from committing suicide, it IS going to tie into whether suicide is right or not. That is one of the main factors behind a lot of peoples views)

 

[Nikolaz72]

Suicides giving prison time, sure that doesnt make any sense. Death sentence? Ridiculous. Any kind of monetary punishment or community service? Wont help one bit.

But even though I dont think it should have any punishment, I still think it should be a crime as it usually does induce a burden on someone, be it by making them feel horrible, making more than one person feel horrible. Or by costing someone else their money for your life.

Essentialy like File Sharing, Illigal with no punishment. I dont think taking your own life should be legal as it doesnt belong in a civilized soceity (Opinion)

Also. Suicide is usually a permanent solution to something that could easily be a tempoary setback.

The key-word I have trouble getting over here is 'usually'. The fact it isn't always true.
That and my fundamental disagreement with the train of thought.

Still, I won't lie. I can at least see where you're coming from, even if I disagree.
Good banter it has been, Nikolaz72, sir.

We need stereotyping and generalization to make ends meet.. If we observe that the majority of the cases of suicide is in places where peoples lives 'can' change for the better and they 'can' be happy again. We should generalize and try to make 'everyones' lives better again. I believe starting from 'suicide is always wrong' is the best way to go. Even if it can sometimes be wrong, in the majority of cases chances are its right. And if we always try to prevent suicidals and in most cases (Something like 9/10) People are pretty happy they didnt die (The tenth probably gonna try to kill themself again until they either die or regret it aswell)

With that large ammount of people 'not' wanting to die but still trying to take their own life. I think the best chance to prevent people who shouldnt kill themself from killing themself is to just to try prevent 'everyone' from killing themself. At this moment, study, science, biology. At that jizz, is all humans have. And if we follow them we can see that studies show people generally regret trying to kill themself.

Science says that when you die, odds are there is no afterlife and no second chance at life (essentialy: When you die, thats it). And Biology says that killing yourself is usually a result of a large spike of very negative feelings that cannot keep itself at the peak forever.

We cannot really know what goes on inside other peoples head. But we can have a general idea, I dont just see where you are comming from I agree with a lot of what you say. Its just that I dont believe a soceity where we tell suicidals that 'Sometimes killing yourself is a valid way to go' would work out for the best.

Good banter though.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

We need stereotyping and generalization to make ends meet.. If we observe that the majority of the cases of suicide is in places where peoples lives 'can' change for the better and they 'can' be happy again. We should generalize and try to make 'everyones' lives better again. I believe starting from 'suicide is always wrong' is the best way to go. Even if it can sometimes be wrong, in the majority of cases chances are its right. And if we always try to prevent suicidals and in most cases (Something like 9/10) People are pretty happy they didnt die (The tenth probably gonna try to kill themself again until they either die or regret it aswell) With that large ammount of people 'not' wanting to die but still trying to take their own life. I think the best chance to prevent people who shouldnt kill themself from killing themself is to just to try prevent 'everyone' from killing themself. At this moment, study, science, biology. At that jizz, is all humans have. And if we follow them we can see that studies show people generally regret trying to kill themself. Science says that when you die, odds are there is no afterlife and no second chance at life. And Biology says that killing yourself is usually a result of a large spike of very negative feelings that cannot keep itself at the peak forever. We cannot really know what goes on inside other peoples head. But we can have a general idea, I dont just see where you are comming from I agree with a lot of what you say. Its just that I dont believe a soceity where we tell suicidals that 'Sometimes killing yourself is a valid way to go' would work out for the best.

Good banter though.

When we look at a someone's life that has commited suicide do we judge that because they split up with the wife they killed themselves? Do we assume that is all there is to it? Just because some people can be talked out of it that they are the rule for all? The regret you speak of might just be the regret that they were denied the chance to find out. You can convince people of anything if you tell them long enough but is that really helping them? You wan't to live, you have reason to live, people want and need you blah blah blah...tell them that enough and the bullshit sticks. Kinda like a religious mantra spoken for comfort.
Does that really help them? I dunno, it wouldn't work on me i'm guessing

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

I was all set to unleash a torrent of impotent internet-rage on your ass for saying something so... inhuman. But then I remembered that the last time I did that to someone I got a warning. I'm already full up on warnings earned for heaping well-deserved ridicule on some of the more vile characters on this site. So, I'm just going to report you and hope that the mods have the good sense to use that banhammer on someone who actually needs the discipline.

Yeah, that'd be funny. "We're going to ban you because your views and opinions are too 'inhuman' and you need to be punished for that."

Then again, it wouldn't surprise me considering the arbitrary bullshit that moderators on this very site pulls daily, but it makes you wonder if they truly value intellectual discussions when they actively run around censoring views and opinions that they happen to think are "bad".

But from your reaction, should I assume that you think that im only entitled to have "human" opinions and that we should all be forbidden from having and speaking of "inhuman" ones? You're not really a big fan of this freedom of speech business are you?

Also, what gives you the right to call my statements inhuman? My DNA is just as HUMAN as yours, ergo anything I say is nothing but human.

OT: No. No it isn't. Saving someone's life is kind of the definition of unselfish behavior.

It must be nice living in that simple fantasyworld of yours where everything is so clear-cut and black and white.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

They aren't thinking: 'Oh, be alive so I can feel better about MY life' as that would make them sociopaths.

Actually that's EXACTLY how they are thinking, and that's pretty much the only foundation you people base your arguments on. That people should feel obliged or forced to stay alive so that YOU don't have to feel bad about their deaths.

So you ARE by definition JUST AS selfish as the people who commit suicide. There's really no arguing that point at all, it't just plain fact.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

How about "one induces a better work ethic, more stability, better health and generally increased quality of life, as well as being seen as desirable, while the other is completely opposite?"

Irrelevant since there's no scientific way to quantify your "work ethic" your arbitrary notion of "stability", no support for your "better health" claim (there's no fact saying that unhappy people have to be in poor health), the "generally increased quality of life" piece is also completely subjective and arbitrary as well as the "desirability" of it (the perception of what is desirable and what isn't is a subjective matter and not an objective one).

So the only thing left to look at from a scientific view are the chemical reactions. Chemical reactions that occur naturally in people's brains. And when you do that you can't escape the fact that the only line between one "chemical imbalance" from the other "chemical imbalance" is an arbitrary one and not a scientific one.

 

[Xeraxis]

In a way, it kinda is. You basically just pussied out on life because of some stupid situation that could've been solved (usually that happens with some cases) and it leaves a pretty unsettling mark on any close people.

However, I believe a little differently if one has a mental illness or suffering from a severe amount of pain.

 

[Zakarath]

If you have so little care for your own life, do not expect me to care more.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

In a way, it kinda is. You basically just pussied out on life because of some stupid situation that could've been solved (usually that happens with some cases) and it leaves a pretty unsettling mark on any close people.

However, I believe a little differently if one has a mental illness or suffering from a severe amount of pain.

So it's not selfish if i'm mentally ill but if i make a rational decision about myself then it's selfish? You assume then that the reason for suicide is 1 event and not a shit load of events with 1 too many on the top for good measure. Systematic abuse over countless years is irrelevant because you killed yourself because your dog died and thus you are selfish.

I'm having a hard time seeing it from that perspective

 

[GigaHz]

They aren't thinking: 'Oh, be alive so I can feel better about MY life' as that would make them sociopaths.

Actually that's EXACTLY how they are thinking, and that's pretty much the only foundation you people base your arguments on. That people should feel obliged or forced to stay alive so that YOU don't have to feel bad about their deaths.

So you ARE by definition JUST AS selfish as the people who commit suicide. There's really no arguing that point at all, it't just plain fact.

It would be a fact if every single person was a nihilist.

Let's weigh the negatives of each situation:

Say I were to kill myself. Someone tried to stop me... lets make them a sociopath for jokes, and I decline. They don't get their way, and for whatever reason despite their obvious emotional issues, they do feel something for my passing. There's also family members who would be affected, friends, co-workers, and etc. That's plenty of sad faces right there.

Or

Now, say that same sociopath intervenes but I decide to seek treatment... That's it. There is no emotional fallout. You could make the argument that the sociopath is still a terrible person having gotten their way, but the ends justify the means.

Which scenario would you say is the better outcome?

Please don't simplify humanity by saying that everyone is inherently selfish. You could spin that perspective on anything.

 

[Shadesong]

Just like Thistle you seem to have a totally inability to recognize the difference between love, which is selfless, and selfishness. I would gladly have taken my uncles place so that he wouldn't kill himself. I would have died for him, but I was never given that option. I would have wanted to save him out of love for him and the desire to see him faced with the opportunity to be happy again. He's dead now though, which means he can't physically be happy. He made a choice under the influence of alcohol and depression, and needed someone to help him.

If you feel that love is hypocrisy, then you are to be pitied. Suicide is selfish, horribly and disgustingly selfish. Those who can't see that don't know what they are talking about, or do not have the self awareness they pride themselves on. Every decision we make is not selfish, that method of thinking removes love from humanity which does exist in very real form and does override our instinct for survival. You gain nothing by taking a bullet for someone, it's not a selfish decision. Killing yourself is the opposite of that, what does that leave?

This is a serious topic with possible consequences, I think the disregard for this being shown by some is almost criminal.

And like many others you seem to have a total inability to understand what I'm talking about. I did not say love was selfish, that's an argument for a different day and one that I have neither the time nor the desire to engage in. What I said was that yelling, "You're selfish" to those considering suicide is hypocritical.

Now because you seem to be quite incapable of understanding the concept of hypocrisy, I'll go ahead and spell this out for you. Person A wants to commit suicide, Person B does not want Person A to commit suicide because that would cause Person B a lot of grief and trouble.

I will now make a hasty, and by no means good, analogy to further exemplify the selfishness. Person A wants to pursue a certain career choice that would position them a long distance from home, but Person B doesn't want them to go because Person B would be lonely without Person A.

Disguise it with 'love' all you want, that's selfish and I will argue until I am blue in the face to support that view.

I did not say that trying to talk someone out of suicide was bad. I said that telling someone not to commit suicide because, "It's selfish" is hypocritical.

 

[Blastinburn]

I don't think selfish is the correct term here. While I do agree that the person commiting suicide is being selfish, I don't think the term would apply to someone trying to stop them unless they directly benefit from the suicidee being alive. Though I do get what you are trying to say, questioning if it's fair to take away their freedom of choice.

OT: I would do whatever I could to stop them, of the mindset that they can always commit suicide later (unless they are going to turn immortal). Though once they do commit suicide, thats the end, no going back, no second chances. I try to talk them out of it, get them help, point out that their life won't get better just because their dead, and that they can always commit suicide later but can never undo such an act.

 

[krazykidd]

It's not selfish to stop someone if you are the person that has to clean up afterwards. That at least is certain.

Wait isn't the the definition of selfish?

 

[Fwee]

Some people may not like to admit it, but forcing another person to keep living when they've made a sane, rational decision to remove one's self from existence is basically it's own form of violent torture. Notice I wrote "sane, rational decision". Maybe there's some kind of medical and psychological test we could let people take to give them a Free Pass, and maybe a few pills if they don't feel like turning their last moments into performance art.

 

[lacktheknack]

How about "one induces a better work ethic, more stability, better health and generally increased quality of life, as well as being seen as desirable, while the other is completely opposite?"

Irrelevant since there's no scientific way to quantify your "work ethic" your arbitrary notion of "stability", no support for your "better health" claim (there's no fact saying that unhappy people have to be in poor health), the "generally increased quality of life" piece is also completely subjective and arbitrary as well as the "desirability" of it (the perception of what is desirable and what isn't is a subjective matter and not an objective one).

So the only thing left to look at from a scientific view are the chemical reactions. Chemical reactions that occur naturally in people's brains. And when you do that you can't escape the fact that the only line between one "chemical imbalance" from the other "chemical imbalance" is an arbitrary one and not a scientific one.

All that I've taken out of that is that science really isn't all that practical or applicable to everyday life.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

It would be a fact if every single person was a nihilist.

It doesn't matter if a person is a nihilist or not, because the surrounding reality is nihilistic by definition. Don't believe me?

Try convincing your surrounding universe about the importance of being morally correct and see how much it'll listen to you.

Let's weigh the negatives of each situation:

Say I were to kill myself. Someone tried to stop me... lets make them a sociopath for jokes, and I decline. They don't get their way, and for whatever reason despite their obvious emotional issues, they do feel something for my passing. There's also family members who would be affected, friends, co-workers, and etc. That's plenty of sad faces right there.

Or

Now, say that same sociopath intervenes but I decide to seek treatment... That's it. There is no emotional fallout. You could make the argument that the sociopath is still a terrible person having gotten their way, but the ends justify the means.

Which scenario would you say is the better outcome?

Your scenarios are irrelevant to the facts that people don't stop others from killing themselves for the suicidals' sake, they do it for their own sake. Because they would feel bad about someone elses death. That's all there is to it.

Please don't simplify humanity by saying that everyone is inherently selfish. You could spin that perspective on anything.

That perspective is plain and simple fact. There's no arguing or denying it and if you do, you aren't connected to reality.

It's not ME "simplifying" anything, it's the facts that are pretty simple in that regard.

 

[Housebroken Lunatic]

All that I've taken out of that is that science really isn't all that practical or applicable to everyday life.

That's your opinion.

But im arguing this because so many in here have tried to find some scientific basis for their view on depression and suicide (trying to pass it off as an actual "illness" which is pseudo-scientific by definition).

You may have whatever opinions of the matter you like, but stop trying to make it seem like hard science actually "support" your views in any sort of way...

 

[lacktheknack]

All that I've taken out of that is that science really isn't all that practical or applicable to everyday life.

That's your opinion.

But im arguing this because so many in here have tried to find some scientific basis for their view on depression and suicide (trying to pass it off as an actual "illness" which is pseudo-scientific by definition).

You may have whatever opinions of the matter you like, but stop trying to make it seem like hard science actually "support" your views in any sort of way...

Fine, then. I'll base my opinions off of personal experience, recountings and basic logic.

 

[Madara XIII]

NO, it's not selfish. You're preserving a persons life not for yourself, but for them.

It's a sticky situation, but I stand by my decision that it's not a selfish act to prevent a person from committing suicide.

The best thing you can do for a person is to love them

However, to hate them isn't the worst thing you can do to a person.

No, to show apathy towards a person is by far the worst thing you can do, for to indifference someone shows that they are worth neither love or hate. Indifference is the essence of Inhumanity.

[HEADING=2]Secondly, let's see what Vergil has to say[/HEADING]