Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[IridescentSky]

Perhaps it seems selfish, no? But this is how I feel a game should be made. And when those games are made, you can tell. As a passion, not as a project to create revenue. When it comes to being a passion, you are just that! Extremely passionate about the creation you have made.

That's fine, I don't really have an iron in the fire one way or the other, I just wanted to confirm.

A while back I made a post regarding Vince Gilligan and auteur theory. Let me try find the bloody quote again...

Here we go...

It was so not only because Breaking Bad was arguably the best show on TV, but because its creator and showrunner, Vince Gilligan, was known as a good man to work for ? someone who managed to balance the vision and microscopic control of the most autocratic showrunner with the open and supportive spirit of the most relaxed. He was a firm believer in collaboration.

"The worst thing the French ever gave us is the auteur theory," he said flatly. "It's a load of horseshit. You don't make a movie by yourself, you certainly don't make a TV show by yourself. You invest people in their work. You make people feel comfortable in their jobs; you keep people talking."

In his room, he said, all writers were equal, an approach that he insisted had less to do with being a Pollyanna than with pure, selfish practicality. "There's nothing more powerful to a showrunner than a truly invested writer," he said. "That writer will fight the good fight."

Interested what you think about that. For the record, I'm not saying "Vince Gilligan is right, mwahahaha!" or anything. Just curious what you think of his perspective on the issue. Most if not all of the people who responded to my thread pooped on auteur theory right along with him, so I'd be interested to hear a proponent of it weigh in.

I can't subscribe to auteur theory. Or ANY theory wholly and religiously for that matter. However, I can subscribe to the fact that I'm making my own game through my own vision and I don't want anyone else to have a say in it. If I were to be making a game in a setting with other people, chances are we may have our own unique ways and thoughts, but one end goal in mind. I can collaborate, but somewhere near the beginning, an idea was conceived by a single individual and then built upon later by their peers. So what Vince is saying is of course true to what he is making, but a game CAN realistically be made by a single individual these days. Example: Axiom Verge

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I'm really close to going to another Escapist-vacation. As in: Leaving this site for a few weeks. It is not bearable to read shit like above. Sometimes you get those people to realise that they use certain individuals to voice sweeping generalisations about feminism (like I had one today) but in most cases I have to shake my head and just look at my list of all the shit that particular gaming figures / smaller communities did and ask myself if they would get defensive if I'd use those examples, with direct quotes, to paint gamers as sexist, racist, homophobic and even pretty defensive about it.

No, I hear you. I used to be vehemently opposed to the idea of gender oriented topics getting shuffled off to a separate sub forum but now I think I'd greatly approve of it. This community has proven time and time again it can't have reasonable, non-polarized discussion on the issue, and the toxicity in some of the threads is off the charts. The Zoe Quinn fiasco just seems to have pulled in an entire new generation of people here to talk about this and ONLY this, and in the most inflammatory terms possible.

Is draining.

But this is for another topic.

I'm rather of the opinion that the more derailed this thread gets the better for everyone, so by all means, have at it.

I can't subscribe to auteur theory. Or ANY theory wholly and religiously for that matter. However, I can subscribe to the fact that I'm making my own game through my own vision and I don't want anyone else to have a say in it. If I were to be making a game in a setting with other people, chances are we may have our own unique ways and thoughts, but one end goal in mind. I can collaborate, but somewhere near the beginning, an idea was conceived by a single individual and then built upon later by their peers. So what Vince is saying is of course true to what he is making, but a game CAN realistically be made by a single individual these days. Example: Axiom Verge

Fair enough.

Generally speaking I think creators have the right to invoke authorial fiat any time they want to. By the same token, I think they need to accept that such a maneuver might be very bad for business. The need to balance one's desire to keep "The Vision" sacrosanct and appeal to a large enough audience to actually subside off the proceeds from one's efforts must be a constant struggle for people in the industry.

 

[QuietlyListening]

I think it's good though. Just to have positive voices out there can change the climate. And who knows, perhaps someone, somewhere, angrily typing at their keyboard will stop and think, "Wait. What am I thinking?"

 

[Muspelheim]

Let me just end this all now. I'm making a game. I'll put WHATEVER I want into it. If I feel it should have a white, male protagonist, then that's how it's going to be. Vice versa for female protagonist. Don't tell me I should include/not include what I want for a game that I'M designing. I'm telling a story and I'm not changing characters just because someone else wants to have more female protagonists. DEAL WITH IT. You want a different answer? Go out and make your own game, with your own characters the way you deem fit.

But the thing is, people WILL tell you how you should design your game, in the shape of critique. There will always be someone who wants something changed, and they will say so. It's how it works. People will tell you what they'd like to see, and then it's all in your own hands.

Of course, you can entirely disreguard any kind of player input or forum blurb, but a middle ground would be best. Keeping an open ear to what people suggest without letting go of the rudder.

False. This is exactly the problem. I am creating something as an individual. I'm putting my very soul into it. I'm making a game that I personally would want to experience. If there is great reception, then that is a positive. There is no way I would let any other person tell me what to have/not have in my creation. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Just don't play it or buy it. Or call it a piece of shit on a gaming forum, it's all the same.

Giving a suggestion the time of day is not the same thing as being told what you must and mustn't include. It is not an insult to your creative vision nor a pollutant of the same. It's just critique that a developer is free to use or ignore entirely. Both methods work rather well. I'm not in disagreement with the main thesis, not at all. The developer or artist is the one in charge and have the final say. A developer is always allowed to say no. I'm just saying that outside influence isn't always meaningless bleating or a corrupting force.

 

[shrekfan246]

Whether I like/dislike your idea, I'm not going to tell you to change it or not make it. Simply, you'll make it how you want, I'll decide if it's something I'd like to play, then I'll play it and come to my own conclusion of what I thought about the experience.

Would it change your opinion if the game was all real-time? I mean so it would take the same amount of time in-game as it would take in real-life? Say ... playing the Edinburgh to Redruth level would mean you were playing for 11 hours I think. Obviously I'd put a pause function in offline mode, but not in online mode (though there will be an option for your character to visit a service station in-game; I could maybe add a cut scene there - you know, walking into the services, taking a leak, grabbing some food - which would give the player the chance to do the same). The ideas are quite literally (figuratively) flowing!

You're confusing my statements. I didn't say I'd play a shit(figuratively and literally) game, just the fact that I'm not going to tell you how to make it.

Nobody is telling you how to make your game. At least not here.

The nature of criticism allows creators to gauge the current climate and adjust their own creations accordingly. Or to bowl ahead with no regards for outside influence whatsoever, either way.

People who are going to write you off for not having female characters rather than based on the quality of the characters themselves aren't people you really need to worry about. Everyone else, however, you would be prudent to keep your mind open toward. Nobody ever got famous by stubbornly refusing to acknowledge criticism (at least, not in the way they wanted to be famous).

Now, you probably will get browbeaten by people who dislike what you're making for the stupidest reasons. It will happen, it always has, it unfortunately likely always will because people are irrational, angry, emotional, and impulsive, and when presented with the anonymity of the internet that gets magnified tenfold. But those are the types of people who aren't going to be happy with what you do no matter what you do. You don't have to appease them, they're (most of the time) not your audience.

So yeah, make your game that has only male characters. But if it comes out and people start saying that the characters were a bit bland and boring, and it maybe would've spiced things up a bit to have the perspective of a woman mixed in there at some point, maybe keep that in mind when you move on to your next project. It's all well and good to have a story you want to tell, but you have to remember that not all stories are going to be things other people want to see/hear/read.

 

[Guerilla]

Go on then, tell us the feminist sites that are more popular than the ones I mentioned. I'm waiting.

No. This is not how that works. You made the claim, you do the work.

What exactly do you want me to do, find a study that doesn't exist about these things to prove it? It's an educated opinion but since you disagree with it you must have a list of sites that are more popular than the ones I mentioned.

When there aren't studies or scientific proof about specific stuff people solve their difference of opinion using their own proof. So, I'm waiting.

 

[San Martin]

Would it change your opinion if the game was all real-time? I mean so it would take the same amount of time in-game as it would take in real-life? Say ... playing the Edinburgh to Redruth level would mean you were playing for 11 hours I think. Obviously I'd put a pause function in offline mode, but not in online mode (though there will be an option for your character to visit a service station in-game; I could maybe add a cut scene there - you know, walking into the services, taking a leak, grabbing some food - which would give the player the chance to do the same). The ideas are quite literally (figuratively) flowing!

Would you consider including a minigame in which you drive around the M25 in heavy traffic for four hours? You could have a sanity meter and everything.

Sorry, I think I just told you what to include in your game, which, so we're told, is a deadly sin.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

What exactly do you want me to do, find a study that doesn't exist about these things to prove it? It's an educated opinion but since you disagree with it you must have a list of sites that are more popular than the ones I mentioned.

When there aren't studies or scientific proof about specific stuff people solve their difference of opinion using their own proof. So, I'm waiting.

You've used the term straw man at least once in this thread, so I *know* you're a proponent of rational argumentation that is free from fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

You made the claim. You support the claim. It's not up to anyone else to disprove it.

My support? Just a bloody google search on the word "feminism". Aside from FeministFrequency, which one could argue is on top due to all the controversy surrounding it (I could use the Anita threads on the Escapist alone as an example as to how the site gets a lot of traffic from people disagreeing with her), none of the sources you mention get on the first two pages.

I believe Google searches are tailored to the individual. Feminist Frequency isn't anywhere on my first two pages. My #1 hit is the Wikipedia page.

 

[Guerilla]

Let me just end this all now. I'm making a game. I'll put WHATEVER I want into it. If I feel it should have a white, male protagonist, then that's how it's going to be. Vice versa for female protagonist. Don't tell me I should include/not include what I want for a game that I'M designing. I'm telling a story and I'm not changing characters just because someone else wants to have more female protagonists. DEAL WITH IT. You want a different answer? Go out and make your own game, with your own characters the way you deem fit.

But the thing is, people WILL tell you how you should design your game, in the shape of critique. There will always be someone who wants something changed, and they will say so. It's how it works. People will tell you what they'd like to see, and then it's all in your own hands.

Of course, you can entirely disreguard any kind of player input or forum blurb, but a middle ground would be best. Keeping an open ear to what people suggest without letting go of the rudder.

False. This is exactly the problem. I am creating something as an individual. I'm putting my very soul into it. I'm making a game that I personally would want to experience. If there is great reception, then that is a positive. There is no way I would let any other person tell me what to have/not have in my creation. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Just don't play it or buy it. Or call it a piece of shit on a gaming forum, it's all the same.

Giving a suggestion the time of day is not the same thing as being told what you must and mustn't include. It is not an insult to your creative vision nor a pollutant of the same. It's just critique that a developer is free to use or ignore entirely. Both methods work rather well. I'm not in disagreement with the main thesis, not at all. The developer or artist is the one in charge and have the final say. A developer is always allowed to say no. I'm just saying that outside influence isn't always meaningless bleating or a corrupting force.

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

 

[Guerilla]

You've used the term straw man at least once in this thread, so I *know* you're a proponent of rational argumentation that is free from fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

You made the claim. You support the claim. It's not up to anyone else to disprove it.

OK then, this is the best I can do since there aren't, obviously, any studies:

http://mcjonline.com/domain/tumblr.com
http://mcjonline.com/domain/jezebel.com

Sarkeesian's videos also have 1-2 million views each.

As you can see they're extremely popular. Now, please link me to your sources of rational feminist thought that are more popular than these.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You might be right. Why... is FeministFrequency on my second page? I haven't been on that site since her third video of the series.

Clearly because you've been Googling her like crazy to learn her sinister feminist screed, you monster!

OK then, this is the best I can do since there aren't, obviously, any studies:

http://mcjonline.com/domain/tumblr.com
http://mcjonline.com/domain/jezebel.com

Sarkeesian's videos also have 1-2 million views each.

As you can see they're extremely popular. Now, please link me to your sources of rational feminist thought that are more popular than these.

I...

Do you ACTUALLY believe that Tumblr is just a feminist site? For realsies?

I'm speechless.

 

[Guerilla]

I...

Do you ACTUALLY believe that Tumblr is just a feminist site? For realsies?

I'm speechless.

I sure love the way you deny everything even though everyone -including you- know it's true. Yes, tumblr is mainly a feminist site and there are literally thousands of examples of its insanity: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction

Keep pretending to be speechless, the rest of the internet isn't though.

 

[Muspelheim]

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

Did I perhaps suggest that it was? I can't remember that I've recommended wild accusations of a developer's character as a good route of suggestion. Nor that spamming complaints reguarding every miniscule detail was another good way to do that. My point is only that suggestion and feedback isn't exclusively worthless.

Can't argue with Sarkeesian's poor methods of criticism, though. However, isn't blackmail a more appropriate term for threatening with an action unless conditions are met? The worst Sark & C:O could do is something of the effect of "Pack that thing in, or we'll tell everyone you're dumb".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I sure love the way you deny everything even though everyone -including you- know it's true. Yes, tumblr is mainly a feminist site and there are literally thousands of examples of its insanity: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction

Keep pretending to be speechless, the rest of the internet isn't though.

Ho ho ho holy cow.

Welp, good luck with that Guerilla. I wish you a long and happy life.