Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

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Dec 16, 2009
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it's almost like making games more varied and diverse is a bad thing.
if it wasn't for innovation we'd still be able to play pong, space invaders and pac-man.
lets mix things up, you can still play pac-man now, but theres lots of other cool stuff out there to play too. lets make newer different, doesnt mean devs will stop making chest high 3rd person shooters, or regenerating health FPS's, or games made entirely of brown and grey, while they still sell, they'll still be made, but with a bit of diversity injected in, we might get other games we didnt even know were fun.

so I vote t keep other peoples POV coming, you don't agree with what they have to say, debate them or ignore them, but lets not silence them.
 

Ratty

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Bolo The Great said:
Ratty said:
OT:

Feminist criticism is one of the major schools of art and culture criticism. So no, as long as games are culturally relevant (which they are, look at those sales numbers) feminist critique will not "step off" your hobby. Get used to it.
I think the grinding amount of misogynist talk or "You are a misogynist because x" articles really turn people off. Yes we need some presence of Femansit critique but i find that coming at gaming from that narrow ideological nagle is tiresome if we get too much of it. We see a LOT of gender discussion in op-eds these days and much of it pushes an agenda.

I also take some issue with some of the basic ideas that tend to go into the "Feminist Critique" Just because you have a women's studies or 'communications' degree does not mean you can't embarrass yourself by trying to tackle topics without enough in depth knowledge. You can't just let your 'feminist perspective' color EVERYTHING you say about a subject. There needs to be little perspective in your writing unless you are blinded by a preconceived agenda. Overzealous 'vagina warriors' talking about 'male tears' are eye-rollingly bad. It ends up sounding like "A christian critique of games" or the like.

Sometimes i think if you go looking for sexism and oppression... you're going to find it. Modern Feminism has somewhat of an identity crisis and anyone who attempts to cirque feminism it's self from he outside gets lots of ugly labels applied to them.

But that's just by ingrained patriarchal oppressive privilege talking i guess.
Feminist critique is about critiquing art from the point of view of women, half the human population. If the idea of examining art from that vantage point is some sort of insidious "agenda" to you then I don't know what to say to that.

Though I will add that this video is relevant if you want to talk about zealous voices on "sides" of this "debate" making members of their group look bad:


This also address the "communications degree" thing you brought up.

People acting like Sarkeesian's critiques are a personal attack, or that the Quinn "scandal" is some kind of "aha!" moment against feminists or women in gaming are delusional. And yes there is a lot of disagreement between feminists, that's why there are different "waves"/schools of thought within feminism. We're talking about a field dedicated to addressing issues related to half of the people on the planet (because "regular" studies were not doing so) OF COURSE it's broad and there are disagreements within it. That's why having more voices, not less, weigh in is a good thing.
 

Grape_Nuts

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Mar 23, 2011
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On the one hand, being worried about what forced diversity might do to the video games industry is a valid concern. On the other hand, it can also bring a lot of interesting, fun stuff to the table. It will require sacrifices on both sides. If the male character can be drawn and quartered (or suffer any number of other gruesome deaths), equality means the same thing can happen to anyone else. If it's going to be "I can watch thousands of male characters die agonizing deaths, but don't you dare shove a female character", then we might as well not bother.
 

idarkphoenixi

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May 2, 2011
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I'm just tired of having people take amazing games and intentionally search for things to offend them. Ohh GTA and Red Dead Revolver have hookers in them and you can kill them if you choose to, this game hates women!

Anytime a game includes a sexy female, boom, instantly derided for objectifying women. Just lay off already and enjoy yourself for once.

Believe me, I'm just as tired of the middle-aged-grizzled-white-guy-with-a-dark-past-looking-for-redemption as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want EVERY game to include people from every spectrum simply so it can be called politically correct. I play games for fun, not social justice.

This kind of change needs to happen naturally, not be shoehorned in just to appeal to the tumblr bloggers. If Dead or Alive wants to sexualise women, then freaking let them! That's their choice as developers. There's no reason we can't have both, let it be the choice of the creators and if you don't like what the final product offers don't buy it. Let your wallets decide, not your overly-critical blogging rants about "sexy womens in dem games grrr"
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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Dec 6, 2009
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Good grief.

Listen to me, all of you. These critics of your precious games only have as much agency as you let them. I don't understand why you think a few feminist vloggers can persuade major gaming companies to remake everything in accordance with some justice agenda when we collectively can't even get someone like EA to make a sequel to a classic game that isn't broken, stripped of features, crippled by microtransactions or online-only. What on earth makes you think all the publishers are going to suddenly turn around and go "Mmm. You know what, let's listen to this tiny sample size and get rid of anything potentially offensive to Anita Sarkeesian"?

The only agency they have is the same agency we have. The more you keep attacking them to try and push them out altogether, the more you draw in outside voices who will defend their right to be part of the hobby. If you just a) ignore them or b) politely outline your disagreement, you won't be giving them any more agency than you yourself have.
 

Kittyhawk

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I agree that some tropes have been used in the past, but I also have to agree that things aren't as bad as they once were in the 80 and 90's. We've progressed through games improving slowly, but unfortunately some of the gaming audience have yet to grow up and improve similarly. Overall, games ins still a male dominated industry so they audience has to be sold to as well as actually make the games.

Its hard to deal with for many. Through even discussion we can gradually change things for the better. Try not to let the tide of one sided feminism drown us all in dumbed down games.
 

Something Amyss

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idarkphoenixi said:
Believe me, I'm just as tired of the middle-aged-grizzled-white-guy-with-a-dark-past-looking-for-redemption as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want EVERY game to include people from every spectrum simply so it can be called politically correct.
That's good. You oppose something that as far as I can tell virtually nobody is saying.

You might as well be complaining about the impact of the coalition of fictional characters we tell our children about (Santa, the Easter Bunny, the stork) on gaming while you're at it. Or "look, I'm for gun control as much as the next guy, but I don't think mandatory death for every person who has ever owned a gun is a wise step."
 

MrHide-Patten

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I think we need to define the difference between Feminists and Radical Feminists. It's like saying all Islamics want to kill everybody for not believing in Allah, or saying all Christians are mentally disabled rednecks, they're grand sweeping generalizations that just make everybody angry.

One can be for equal female representation and not be a raving douche about it. Personally I want more women in games for entirely selfish reasons; because boobs. Man pecks do not do it for me lads, I've had enough.
 

Kingjackl

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Nov 18, 2009
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There's nothing wrong with feminism; feminism is one of the worthiest social causes out there, and if there's any medium that could benefit from a feminist perspective it's gaming. Contrary to popular belief, feminism isn't about replacing women with men as the oppressed gender, it's about creating equality. Any feminist who says otherwise is an extremist that should not be taken as representative of a larger group.

There might be a problem with how feminism in gaming is currently represented. So much of feminist writing in the gaming media at the moment just amounts to clickbait and meaningless call-outs. I've seen gaming people on Twitter, generally males, who have a tendency to retweet every single article written by woman that has anything to do with gaming, and I can't help but feel like they're patronising them. Rather than trying to support a well-written think-piece from a minority viewpoint, they're just giving them a pat on the head as if to say "good for you, you wrote a thing". In the long-term, this can actually be harmful for a writer's development because it's encourages them that they are untouchable and can do no wrong. Whereas often the best feedback a writer can get is honest, constructive criticism. It's harmful to assume that any criticism of a woman's work is inherently sexist, because it ultimately just creates a victim culture. While there are dickheads on the Internet, most of what they do is less about hatred of woman and more about bullying, which tends to target the things that make a person stand out, because they think that is what they are insecure about.

Clickbaity stuff is a problem for the industry in general, and I think the current frustrations with feminism is less to do with any flaws in feminism and more to do with the way it's been adopted by a 24-hour news & social media culture. That's why we should have more feminist commenters like Anita Sarkeesian who focus more on long-form analysis and are actually qualified to talk about the subject academically. More essays and feature articles, less tweets about why this white fiftteen year-old Youtuber shouldn't make stupid rape jokes.
 

Panda Pandemic

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That implies that you own the hobby and they don't. Entire premise fails.

You don't even detail a specific policy to complain about. You just act like diversity means the method must involve somehow stifling creativity. So it fails also in that it doesn't seem to be a response to a method anyone suggested
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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oh for fuck-

I'm not stoping playing games anytime soon
Not The Bees said:
So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.
I think people forget that you can take a crtical look at something and [I/]enjoy it at the same time[/I] not everything exists to fill an ideology

like I love the fuck out of Bioshock Infinite...I could consider the game has some "dad bro" overtones just like Last Of Us....does this ruin the game for me? no, everything else was on point....would I have a problem if it ruined the game for someone else? NO, because:

[quote/]For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"[/quote]
this so much

5 years ago I would have gotten my ass to the cinema at light speed to watch gaurdians of the galaxy...now? I can't give a fuck, that doesn't mean I think its a bad movie or wont check it out later..I'm just so tired of the "oh well give you periphery and token characters" bullshit



BloatedGuppy said:
Mandalore_15 said:
Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.
Oh my GOD she is not. She's a superb video game character, but she'd be a marginal character at best in a novel, television series or film. Games still have a very, very long way to go in that regard.
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I think "marginal" is harsh...and while LOU was 'typical" was very well done typical

but yeah, this isn't the most amazing thing ever folks....

Shamanic Rhythm said:
Good grief.
Listen to me, all of you. These critics of your precious games only have as much agency as you let them. I don't understand why you think a few feminist vloggers can persuade major gaming companies to remake everything in accordance with some justice agenda when we collectively can't even get someone like EA to make a sequel to a classic game that isn't broken, stripped of features, crippled by microtransactions or online-only. What on earth makes you think all the publishers are going to suddenly turn around and go "Mmm. You know what, let's listen to this tiny sample size and get rid of anything potentially offensive to Anita Sarkeesian"?
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maybe bogeywomen are more fun to hate than faceless corporations?
 

Bakuryukun

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Jul 12, 2010
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OUR hobby? Gaming belongs to feminism just as much as it belongs to anybody. It's a shared medium. It doesn't belong to any one group or person just because businesses like to target specific groups to sell their products too, the fact that as many feminists are speaking up for what they want should show businesses that perhaps there is swaths of people they hadn't considered that are potential customers who feel they are being ignored.

No. Grow up, feminists are allowed to like and play games, just like anybody else. They should also be allowed to call out bullshit that concerns them in the industry without death threats on themselves and their family, just like anybody else.
 

idarkphoenixi

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May 2, 2011
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Zachary Amaranth said:
idarkphoenixi said:
Believe me, I'm just as tired of the middle-aged-grizzled-white-guy-with-a-dark-past-looking-for-redemption as the next guy but that doesn't mean I want EVERY game to include people from every spectrum simply so it can be called politically correct.
That's good. You oppose something that as far as I can tell virtually nobody is saying.

You might as well be complaining about the impact of the coalition of fictional characters we tell our children about (Santa, the Easter Bunny, the stork) on gaming while you're at it. Or "look, I'm for gun control as much as the next guy, but I don't think mandatory death for every person who has ever owned a gun is a wise step."
People are CONSTANTLY complaining whenever the main protagonist is a man. I threw the rest in for extra emphasis but the fact remains that people are demanding more and more to make the main playable person female and if that's not what the developer wants then people should stop pressuring them to do it simply for the sake of calling it equality.
 

Andrey Sirotin

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Mar 17, 2012
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I have no issue with feminists in gaming as long as they don't attack developers like George Kamitami(Dragon's Crown) for inclusion of fan service. You can criticize somebody's work w/o name calling and smear campaigns. I understand that some people are not into sexy female characters, and that's fine. But I think that it's rather elitist to shame the people who do.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Zachary Amaranth said:
I always love this idea that games have somehow made it to the point where they rival other media in terms of storytelling and character. They can do things other media can't, but as far as character and writing go, they rarely reach dime novel/C movie status. TLOU may be the greatest game of all time[footnote]Never played it, I'm just offering this as a hypothetical based on the way people treat it[/footnote] but that doesn't make it significantly great compared to other media.
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I think they can...depending on where you set the bar...Games might not compare to what we consider "high brow" but I think they hold their weight with the middle of the road stuff...not all of them, but the odd one.

then youre getting into the complicated area of "should games want to be like movies? or should they play tot he strength of their medium" I admit I'm pretty biased in this, because I like to write myself

and when it comes to stories, players are assholes and ruin everything, you can't drag them by the collar to pay attention (and nor should you really) so for me its hard to imagine a story that makes allowances for the ADD sociopaths we call "players"

that's why I don't see Red deads cutscenes as any "better" than Half life 2's "cutscenens without a camera" its all the same to me, or even worse your just sitting there watching sprites talk to each other...and text/audiologs have their limits
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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Mandalore_15 said:
I'm going to assume everyone reading this is aware of the so-called "Quinnspiracy" and other events of the last two weeks. The fact that the online community has become a shit-slinging bitching fest can't have escaped many people's notice. Whatever people's views of the behaviour on both sides, I actually want to sidestep all that and talk about games themselves.

Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry has surely not gone unnoticed. Now, some people approve of this, others do not: for my intents and purposes it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future. It seems to me that no matter how far we come in the depiction of female characters in games, it is never enough. Take The Last Of Us: for my money, this was one of the inclusive, all-round diverse games ever, with female characters oozing with personality and inner-strength. Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist". This was discussed a lot at the time so I won't go into any more detail, but it seems to me that there are now so many manufactured controversies surrounding women in video games that there is no way to please the feminist camp. Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Such spurious claims do nothing but derail any kind of discussion of gender in games, and must frustrate developers attempts to create a more diverse game by making them either want to give up or try even harder to shoehorn diversity in there for the sake of it.

This raises an important question: should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games? My immediate answer is a resounding NO. As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work. Creators should feel free to choose the characters that suit the story they want to tell, and not bow to any pressure to have a gender/race/sexuality/etc. quota in their cast list. The same goes for those characters' personalities: there ARE weak women in the world, just as there are strong women, and the same for men. Choosing characters that fit these roles in no way makes a broad statement about a gender as a whole, it's just a dramatic device. Can you imagine William Golding being told he had to include some female characters in Lord Of The Flies? It simply wouldn't work in the context of the story and world he was creating.

And while we might disagree with some creative decisions, ultimately it's the creator's work to do with what he will. Whether that work lives or dies in the court of public opinion is up to us. We can criticise it on its merits, but extrapolating that to making broad statements about the developer's worldview is totally speculative and ultimately fruitless, particularly when they give us more inclusive games and receive just as much, if not more scrutiny.

So what do you guys think? Is there endemic sexism within the game industry and feminists complaints are valid, or is it a storm in a tea cup?

Well this was pleasant.
Usually when I see thread titles like this one the first line in the OP is something like "Is the kind of thing we need to stop saying if there's ever going to be an end to the flaming"

but I'm glad to see that you're looking at it from a creative perspective.
I would, however argue that it is a very very rare story that can have a cast composed strait white men that can still call its self a creative work. I still agree with you in principle.

When Last of Us got called sexist that was when I officially stopped listening to the "Games are sexist" criers.
They're not looking at characters they're just looking at gender rolls.

They wanted Last of Us to be about a man saving a woman instead of an adult saving a child, or if they actually payed any attention to the themes in Last of Us they would have realized that it was a story about Ellie saving Joel on a much deeper psychological level.

My response to the game devs and writers who want to give us the same old story about the same old white dude saving the same old princess from the same old tower is to try herder. as much as I think all the so called examples of sexism are more accurately examples of lazy writers using easily recognizable tropes to compensate for their lack of creativity, if Anita Sarkeezian's (Simply awful) TVW videos convince one writer anywhere to come up with a more interesting story, then they were a success.

And any writer with a real creative vision knows well enough not to be swayed by some idiot spouting nonsense on the internet.

So while I do wish they would shut up for the sake of my ringing ears I don't think they can do any real damage.
 

ultratog1028

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Mar 19, 2010
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As long as the games industry keeps proving them right, they won't go away. The only thing this will lead to is better stories anyway.