A lot of people say "feminists will ruin games!". I think that possibility is partially true, the reaction of some devs to not get on to a feminist hit list could lead them to making safer choices and creating bland products. And then I won't buy those products. It also may lead to some games being better, which would be great. We'll see. Anita Sarkeesian and her ilk will always be around. I don't agree with her on many points and find her tactics for publicity disgusting, but if you don't like something don't buy it. I get offended when she says that I'm too dumb to understand that I'm being brainwashed by the patriarchy. I buy things that interest me, and with an industry this big I'll always find things that interest me. Let Anita and those like her argue their shallow arguments, they feel entitled that everything that's made should cater to them. It's childish. But if it leads to things being better great, better stuff for me. If it leads to some things being worse, great, the bad stuff will get swept away with the rest of the garbage and I won't buy it. Whining about something is free, but buying something isn't. And the free market will keep on chugging along with or without radical feminists, so I don't really give a hoot what they say or do.
Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?
- Thread starter Mandalore_15
- Start date
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One.
You can't tell somebody to "step off of" a hobby. They are enthusiastic about it, and they will contribute to the discussion about the hobby.
Two.
Game developers must be allowed to capitulate to their audiences, so, that is fine as well.
I say, we follow the hobby because we care about it. Because we care about it, we all should speak up.
You can't tell somebody to "step off of" a hobby. They are enthusiastic about it, and they will contribute to the discussion about the hobby.
Two.
Game developers must be allowed to capitulate to their audiences, so, that is fine as well.
I will criticize you based on the fact that you don't seem to understand what you are saying. You say that people here can be included in the game playing hobby even if they are a feminist. But feminists are not allowed to be actively involved in it. You tell them they can be here, but they have to "step off". You tell them they share our hobby, but they can't be a part of its discussions. You tell them, you are welcome, BUT shut up.Mandalore_15 said:
I say, we follow the hobby because we care about it. Because we care about it, we all should speak up.
It's already been said, of course, that feminists are already part of the hobby; while it's tempting at times to suggest they're some kind of external force jumping on a hot button in that new, trendy video-game thing, I doubt that's the case for the vast majority.
Nor would I ever suggest that feminism has no place in video games, or shouldn't have a voice therein.
I do find the current atmosphere surrounding such issues more than a little troubling; I worry about game developers having to spend so much time focusing on what they're trying not to express, rather than what they are. I also worry about the sense that women in the industry and female characters cannot be subject to criticism from men without it drawing immediate cries of misogyny; that past discrimination and mistreatment (however real, and on-going) effectively allow some to write a blank check from a bottomless account.
In an era where one ill-worded tweet or overheard joke is enough to get someone fired, it should hardly be surprising when so much of the visible disagreement with so-called "social justice warrior" issues come from anonymous goons who don't feel they have anything to lose by behaving abominably. The environment has created a feedback loop that allows such people to feel that they're rebels and martyrs fighting against an overwhelming and omnipresent force, a cycle that empowers paranoia and everyone's entitlement to immediately expect the worst of those with whom they disagree.
Anita Sarkeesian is linked Entertainment Weekly's blog- not Kotaku, or Rock Paper Shotgun or the Escapist, but a mainstream, mass-consumption periodical. As I've said before, I'm not going to campaign for Sarkeesian to go away, let alone say there's anything okay with people harassing or threatening her. But while she sometimes raises valid points or at least interesting ideas for debate, sometimes she states the questionable as unimpeachable reality- and other times clearly has put the narrative she's trying to spin far out in advance of what basic research would suggest. I'm troubled that she may in some cases be the only voice educating people who play games but would never go some place like The Escapist, let alone delve into the forums there, and that they might be inclined to parrot back her claims as an unquestionable authority.
It bothers me that there's really no one in the mainstream to say, "Look, that's going too far, and here is why." The reflexive will to call those who diagree misogynistic, immature or deluded makes it unlikely such a thing will ever manifest. One can certainly argue that the status quo in video game development has real problems, but it's just a rock that can and is being chipped away, not an actual countervening force. If there was something in place that actually offered organized and sensible rebuttal, it would have the benefit of focusing and refining reforms that most feminists would genuinely like to see while rounding off extremists on the feminist side and undermining the sense of the "anti-SJ" side that they're screaming into an uncaring storm, so they'd better scream louder.
I think we'd all benefit from a developer being able to say "Look, this is the story we wanted to tell; this character made sense for us within this context, and the way we see them moving through that world only worked if they were this person. It's not the only story we want to tell, or the last story we expect to tell, and if you see a way for a character you'd identify with to work in another story, we'd be interested in hearing about it."
As opposed to
Leading question
Hesitant, hopefully placating answer
LIAR!
It's like watching a bad relationship.
Nor would I ever suggest that feminism has no place in video games, or shouldn't have a voice therein.
I do find the current atmosphere surrounding such issues more than a little troubling; I worry about game developers having to spend so much time focusing on what they're trying not to express, rather than what they are. I also worry about the sense that women in the industry and female characters cannot be subject to criticism from men without it drawing immediate cries of misogyny; that past discrimination and mistreatment (however real, and on-going) effectively allow some to write a blank check from a bottomless account.
In an era where one ill-worded tweet or overheard joke is enough to get someone fired, it should hardly be surprising when so much of the visible disagreement with so-called "social justice warrior" issues come from anonymous goons who don't feel they have anything to lose by behaving abominably. The environment has created a feedback loop that allows such people to feel that they're rebels and martyrs fighting against an overwhelming and omnipresent force, a cycle that empowers paranoia and everyone's entitlement to immediately expect the worst of those with whom they disagree.
Anita Sarkeesian is linked Entertainment Weekly's blog- not Kotaku, or Rock Paper Shotgun or the Escapist, but a mainstream, mass-consumption periodical. As I've said before, I'm not going to campaign for Sarkeesian to go away, let alone say there's anything okay with people harassing or threatening her. But while she sometimes raises valid points or at least interesting ideas for debate, sometimes she states the questionable as unimpeachable reality- and other times clearly has put the narrative she's trying to spin far out in advance of what basic research would suggest. I'm troubled that she may in some cases be the only voice educating people who play games but would never go some place like The Escapist, let alone delve into the forums there, and that they might be inclined to parrot back her claims as an unquestionable authority.
It bothers me that there's really no one in the mainstream to say, "Look, that's going too far, and here is why." The reflexive will to call those who diagree misogynistic, immature or deluded makes it unlikely such a thing will ever manifest. One can certainly argue that the status quo in video game development has real problems, but it's just a rock that can and is being chipped away, not an actual countervening force. If there was something in place that actually offered organized and sensible rebuttal, it would have the benefit of focusing and refining reforms that most feminists would genuinely like to see while rounding off extremists on the feminist side and undermining the sense of the "anti-SJ" side that they're screaming into an uncaring storm, so they'd better scream louder.
I think we'd all benefit from a developer being able to say "Look, this is the story we wanted to tell; this character made sense for us within this context, and the way we see them moving through that world only worked if they were this person. It's not the only story we want to tell, or the last story we expect to tell, and if you see a way for a character you'd identify with to work in another story, we'd be interested in hearing about it."
As opposed to
Leading question
Hesitant, hopefully placating answer
LIAR!
It's like watching a bad relationship.
By not making such threads about them and by not giving news/editor articles about feminism 50x more views than their average articles.Rocket Girl said:
As you can see, people are failing
The way I see it, gaming isn't gender-exclusive. It never has been. Even if it were, the attitude we should have is "You want to play? Cool, have a controller."
But I also see it as people trying desperately to change the hobby into something that suits them. They don't like the way games are made, so they're trying to change it. They're not gamers themselves, but they still take offense to them. Why?
I honestly feel Anita and her cronies are making a huge deal over nothing - gaming doesn't NEED to be all-encompassing and representative, does it?
And, while I'm here, why in fuck's name is Alyx Vance constantly left out of strong female character discussions? She's brilliant - strong and determined, protective and caring, but not without flaw. Nor is she a total Mary-Sue badass; she spends half of Episode 2 recovering from a horrific injury, and I feel the way that was written didn't portray her as a helpless victim.
But I also see it as people trying desperately to change the hobby into something that suits them. They don't like the way games are made, so they're trying to change it. They're not gamers themselves, but they still take offense to them. Why?
I honestly feel Anita and her cronies are making a huge deal over nothing - gaming doesn't NEED to be all-encompassing and representative, does it?
And, while I'm here, why in fuck's name is Alyx Vance constantly left out of strong female character discussions? She's brilliant - strong and determined, protective and caring, but not without flaw. Nor is she a total Mary-Sue badass; she spends half of Episode 2 recovering from a horrific injury, and I feel the way that was written didn't portray her as a helpless victim.
I just think it is funny that people think all this feminist critique of games is a new thing. It's always been a thing, its just that the mainstream gaming "news" outlets are paying attention now. We are arguing about the same shit that I've been arguing about on the internet since I started spending time on the internet sixteen years ago. And it wouldn't surprise me if gamers older than I am remember similar conversations going back even further.
It's also funny how similar the attitude between gamers on video game websites and superhero comic book readers on comic book websites are. Trust me guys, you aren't the only ones dealing with the dreaded(insert sarcasm here) feminist critique.
At any rate. I am a feminist. I'm a gamer. As others have said, feminists have always been a portion of gamers. It's probably why you don't see much feminist analysis of the Anita videos. Large portions of what she has to say regarding tropes is feminist 101, so there is no need to address it. Unless you want to nit pick it to death, and most of us can't be arsed because we've moved on to other topics.
It's also funny how similar the attitude between gamers on video game websites and superhero comic book readers on comic book websites are. Trust me guys, you aren't the only ones dealing with the dreaded(insert sarcasm here) feminist critique.
At any rate. I am a feminist. I'm a gamer. As others have said, feminists have always been a portion of gamers. It's probably why you don't see much feminist analysis of the Anita videos. Large portions of what she has to say regarding tropes is feminist 101, so there is no need to address it. Unless you want to nit pick it to death, and most of us can't be arsed because we've moved on to other topics.
im glad they are calling out some things that are sexist in games as it will make developers become more creative and original.
take a location such as a brothel or strip club found in so many games. it is sexiest and its freaking boring. i want different locations,not the same place over and over constantly with a bit of titilation. they are becoming like the new sewer levels that everyone hates.
take a location such as a brothel or strip club found in so many games. it is sexiest and its freaking boring. i want different locations,not the same place over and over constantly with a bit of titilation. they are becoming like the new sewer levels that everyone hates.
I think anyone that is trying to alter or police any kind of art work which is being created by people for entertainment purposes, should fuck off and jump off a cliff.
If by feminists you mean women who are civilly asking for better representation, I don't think they should step off. I think they should step in. Stop whining about female representation, and create some games in which they actually do feel well represented.
If by feminists you mean women who are civilly asking for better representation, I don't think they should step off. I think they should step in. Stop whining about female representation, and create some games in which they actually do feel well represented.
The feminists (at least the ones in the spotlight, who aren't the particularly rational ones) who are throwing their goofy theories at everyone who walks by is incredibly annoying. I don't like it.
But are they taking away from the medium? Are they harming me or my hobby? Are they hindering creative progress?
Yappy dogs as they are, they aren't doing anything that rightfully SHOULD bother me, other than spewing out opinions I find cringe-inducingly stupid with a deplorable sense of self-rightiousness. In that regard, they're really no different than anyone else.
If you like them, support them. If you think they're crazy and one-sided, do what you do with everyone else who is crazy and one-sided and blow them the fuck off. Seriously, the more you try to fight them off, the more they can legitimately point at your behavior as provocative, which essentially throws kerosine into the bonfire.
Just let this passing trend die the slow, shriveling death it deserves and quit breathing more life into it with every new debate thread.
But are they taking away from the medium? Are they harming me or my hobby? Are they hindering creative progress?
Yappy dogs as they are, they aren't doing anything that rightfully SHOULD bother me, other than spewing out opinions I find cringe-inducingly stupid with a deplorable sense of self-rightiousness. In that regard, they're really no different than anyone else.
If you like them, support them. If you think they're crazy and one-sided, do what you do with everyone else who is crazy and one-sided and blow them the fuck off. Seriously, the more you try to fight them off, the more they can legitimately point at your behavior as provocative, which essentially throws kerosine into the bonfire.
Just let this passing trend die the slow, shriveling death it deserves and quit breathing more life into it with every new debate thread.
No, feminists don't need to step off of 'our' hobby (whatever that means). Critique and introspection is how art evolves. It's how you make better artists.
No one is coming to take your games away. No one is going to castrate Call of Duty. The worst -the absolute WORST- that will happen long-term, is that developers will think just a little longer about the roles of female characters in their games.
Oh the horror.
No one is coming to take your games away. No one is going to castrate Call of Duty. The worst -the absolute WORST- that will happen long-term, is that developers will think just a little longer about the roles of female characters in their games.
Oh the horror.
Perhaps you should look at South Park : The Stick of Truth, released earlier this year.Don Incognito said:
No-one in Europe censored the game. Ubisoft "censored" the game.
The allegedly offending content would've stayed in if it were up to the governments of Europe.
