Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[thethird0611]

...because they are lieing about men and our beliefs...

"Our beliefs"?

Pray tell, what is a universal belief shared by men?

Honestly, that was a sarcastic response about his BS qualifications.

I could always go on about the #gamergate lies against them, which a large portion of them are male who even funded TFYC, but we have all had enough of that.

I think most of these insults, such as misogynist, sexist, etc., are just used to try to silence people.

 

[thethird0611]

-snip-

I will tell you this much, and this is one of those things that can't be stressed enough. Many use word misogyny because it has power to shame. But just like many other words it's used to shame where it has no place.

I can insult woman all day with gender insults and not fall under the category of misogyny if I have reason OTHER than her gender to insult her. Maybe I'm insulting her because I'm racist and she happens to be of race I'm racist towards. Maybe she crashed my car. Maybe we are fighting over last console in store.

Misogyny is term meant to specifically mean that someone has a hate or intense distrust that resembles hate towards women based on their gender alone or predominantly. Nothing else.

I really didn't need a lesson on the definition of misogyny.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about black people they get called racist.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about Jews they get called anti-semetic.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about women and their beliefs, they get called sexist or misogynistic.

If people don't like that, then I suggest people stop doing it.

Actually, you really do need a lesson. We have seen through this last controversy that many people, men specifically, have pushed more for women in game and equality than the 'Media Press'.

Are you gonna call NeoGAF racist, since when he was told by a woman that she was #nothisshield, that he insulted her saying her vagina was huge?

Are you going to call many of the people who compare male gamers to ISIS misandrist? Since that is exactly what you are saying about men to women.

No. Your not. Because you have it in your mind that 'Misogyny' fits, when it really doesn't. Sexist barely even fits.

I am now going to start calling everyone who calls me a misogynist a misandrist, because they are lieing about men and our beliefs, and they get called sexist or misandrist.

Why would I call someone a racist for insulting someone's vagina? That makes no sense.

As far I know 1 person stupidly compared gamers to ISIS, not many people. I, as a feminist, said it was stupid.

My consistency, let me show you it.

If there are women out there constantly insulting, attacking, and lying about men, not just one-off stupidity, then yes, people are going to think they're misandrists, especially if they just recently became a site member and that's all they did.

That was a typo, I mean sexist. Hopefully that was a little obvious.

You want some of the insults that have been flung at the gamergate people though? And of course, this isn't all of them.

Terrorists (http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/devin.jpg)

Pathetic (http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/freelance-dev.jpg)

Racist (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96832821253)

Nerds (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96824882816)

Parasites (http://i.imgur.com/YYx4VM3.png)

Worthless (http://38.media.tumblr.com/3f7e5d258c3590d92e21a91c941cfc48/tumblr_nbel0pMV3y1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Deserving death (http://31.media.tumblr.com/05ce05fa39964870e51b029b76eb4453/tumblr_nbdot0XTYQ1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Confederates, Neo-NAZIs (https://twitter.com/devincf/status/509120907000823808)

Misogynists (http://33.media.tumblr.com/33f424d2dca74196a76641c295295c24/tumblr_nbgypnmym01tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Drug users (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwYnLcPCcAExa7T.png:large)

Dweebs (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bwjyo6TIgAM-3xN.jpg:large)

NAZIs (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96981951159)

Subhuman (http://i.gyazo.com/af9f579b915579b16382885ee071a8a6.png)

Sociopaths (http://31.media.tumblr.com/6b838763c2a04c7356eb12aac086d2d4/tumblr_nbdfr6ZW3f1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Scum (http://i.imgur.com/rLT5hMG.png)

Morons (http://33.media.tumblr.com/839ef95775ce258ea9b69e3092b74c13/tumblr_nbaq6t5l8a1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Fat (http://38.media.tumblr.com/c006886fc38d780246bb0541e2158026/tumblr_nbaprdoOzq1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Nonexistent (http://38.media.tumblr.com/4f6b44d2d02dcf5637449c43f59081f0/tumblr_nbaraiM5CK1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Hateful (http://38.media.tumblr.com/04d047edde4912a0ae1d08d5d34eb073/tumblr_nbavqcjInC1tkhroeo1_1280.jpg)

Autistic (http://38.media.tumblr.com/070bec77b1eb20d7127eeb53e24cd739/tumblr_nb9o4uaZLh1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Deserving violence (http://media.tumblr.com/5fcf2906cbd6a4f0a2d0d118938a6647/tumblr_inline_nb9hwmg56l1t04v2j.png)

Bullies (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/821/909/564.png)

But you know, #gamergate people who are pushing for the actual goals, such as less corruption and more openness, say that they idiots who are harassing others are stupid, but we are called Misogynist! Funny hypocrisy.

 

[R0guy]

Jesus, you really are about the all-or-nothing approach. Because I praise an article doesn't mean I agree with absolutely every point in it. I thought I had made the elements I was praising clear. Apparently I didn't.

No, you didn't. How is this article "brilliant" when most of what it does it is make dumbass inclusiveness calculations, based on counting the number of characters of each gender or by calculating the shown skin surface of each gender. The entire article is bafflingly stupid. It isn't an all or nothing approach to presume that you'd agree with most (or at least a majority) of what's in a particular article that you called "brilliant". Stop goal post moving.

The context of my calling the article brilliant was in supplying numerous examples of male-centric stories which didn't have to hand in their balls to be inclusive. Furious 6 is a uber-male fantasy filled with fast cars, hot girls, and over-the-top action.... and it was more inclusive and treated its female characters with more respect...

Explain to me how Star Trek disrespected women. Go on

The point is being inclusive tends to add more than it takes away.

Only if you're wearing those gender-war goggles of yours. Because how or what gender is represented in video games or movies has nothing to do with it's overall quality. Are you going to argue that "Fast and Furious" was better than "Drive"? Or do you actually believe than "Drive" would have been improved had the genders been reversed? Also is "Star Trek: into darkness" better than "2001: a space odyssey"?

Star Wars, boys fantasy, lots of female fans. Terminator 1 & 2, classic sci-fi action films and plenty of female fans. Doctor Who, my personal favorite, was watched by all age groups and both sexes despite skewing toward boys. All of these were inclusive.

Gender-war goggles again. You say this "inclusiveness" increases the popularity or the quality of a franchise. I said no, and showed statistics and sales figures. Your turn now, explain the correlation with proof. Also, was Princess Leia not a damsell in distress? And wasn't she the only character to appear in underwear in the entire original trilogy?

As far as the Bechdel Test goes, virtually every time I've seen a Feminist talk about it they've stressed that passing or failing the test doesn't make your movie sexist or non-sexist. The Patron Anti-Christ of Gaming, Miss S... she's said it in a few of videos. If someone made a movie called, "Women And Why They're Horrible, Horrible People And I Hate Them All" and it featured a scene where two women talk about shoes and how they're so horribly irresponsible that they spend all their rent money on shoes every month... that movie would pass the Bechdel Test. Where as a super-serious Feminist movie where all the character spend all their time talking about how men oppress them would fail. Remember, the test came about from a gag in a comic book. It was just expressing a frustration that too many movies don't show women having aspects of their life which don't revolve around men... and it's been horribly misused ever sense.

Drivel, absolute drivel.
Circumstancial evidence based on personal experience, strawmanning and goal post moving. So many words for no arguments whatsoever.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Honestly, that was a sarcastic response about his BS qualifications.

Ah. Well...be careful about hyperbole in these conversations, even for the sake of sarcastic rebuttal. The discussion is already about as polarized as these things can get. Most people will read it as your genuine opinion, and get further inflamed.

I think most of these insults, such as misogynist, sexist, etc., are just used to try to silence people.

Insults are levied for a variety of reasons. Most typically because the person speaking became emotional and lashed out. When you're dealing with a highly charged topic like the one being discussed, people are going to get more worked up than usual. Throw in attitude polarization and confirmation bias, and lots of ever so helpful sarcastic hyperbole, and people are going to see the monsters they're expecting to find lurking behind every bush.

Further, it's also possible to express a prejudicial opinion or say a prejudicial thing without necessarily being a dyed in the wool asshole in all walks of life. Almost everyone alive has at least some baked in prejudices, and the more irritable or emotional they are the more likely those are to float to the surface at inopportune moments. The measure of someone's character is not that they are free of prejudice or bias, but that when having their attention called to it they are willing to reflect and strive to improve.

Drivel, absolute drivel.

I have no idea who is arguing what in your little tete a tete there, and I can't be assed to go back and find out, but on the subject of the Bechdel test, it is also my anecdotal experience that no one takes it seriously. It's a borderline Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon party trick to demonstrate a dearth of quality roles for women in Hollywood, not a measure of a film's quality or whether or not it's "sexist".

 

[AkaDad]

-snip-

I will tell you this much, and this is one of those things that can't be stressed enough. Many use word misogyny because it has power to shame. But just like many other words it's used to shame where it has no place.

I can insult woman all day with gender insults and not fall under the category of misogyny if I have reason OTHER than her gender to insult her. Maybe I'm insulting her because I'm racist and she happens to be of race I'm racist towards. Maybe she crashed my car. Maybe we are fighting over last console in store.

Misogyny is term meant to specifically mean that someone has a hate or intense distrust that resembles hate towards women based on their gender alone or predominantly. Nothing else.

I really didn't need a lesson on the definition of misogyny.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about black people they get called racist.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about Jews they get called anti-semetic.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about women and their beliefs, they get called sexist or misogynistic.

If people don't like that, then I suggest people stop doing it.

Actually, you really do need a lesson. We have seen through this last controversy that many people, men specifically, have pushed more for women in game and equality than the 'Media Press'.

Are you gonna call NeoGAF racist, since when he was told by a woman that she was #nothisshield, that he insulted her saying her vagina was huge?

Are you going to call many of the people who compare male gamers to ISIS misandrist? Since that is exactly what you are saying about men to women.

No. Your not. Because you have it in your mind that 'Misogyny' fits, when it really doesn't. Sexist barely even fits.

I am now going to start calling everyone who calls me a misogynist a misandrist, because they are lieing about men and our beliefs, and they get called sexist or misandrist.

Why would I call someone a racist for insulting someone's vagina? That makes no sense.

As far I know 1 person stupidly compared gamers to ISIS, not many people. I, as a feminist, said it was stupid.

My consistency, let me show you it.

If there are women out there constantly insulting, attacking, and lying about men, not just one-off stupidity, then yes, people are going to think they're misandrists, especially if they just recently became a site member and that's all they did.

That was a typo, I mean sexist. Hopefully that was a little obvious.

You want some of the insults that have been flung at the gamergate people though? And of course, this isn't all of them.

Terrorists (http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/devin.jpg)

Pathetic (http://gamesnosh.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/freelance-dev.jpg)

Racist (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96832821253)

Nerds (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96824882816)

Parasites (http://i.imgur.com/YYx4VM3.png)

Worthless (http://38.media.tumblr.com/3f7e5d258c3590d92e21a91c941cfc48/tumblr_nbel0pMV3y1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Deserving death (http://31.media.tumblr.com/05ce05fa39964870e51b029b76eb4453/tumblr_nbdot0XTYQ1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Confederates, Neo-NAZIs (https://twitter.com/devincf/status/509120907000823808)

Misogynists (http://33.media.tumblr.com/33f424d2dca74196a76641c295295c24/tumblr_nbgypnmym01tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Drug users (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwYnLcPCcAExa7T.png:large)

Dweebs (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bwjyo6TIgAM-3xN.jpg:large)

NAZIs (http://gamergateharrassment.tumblr.com/image/96981951159)

Subhuman (http://i.gyazo.com/af9f579b915579b16382885ee071a8a6.png)

Sociopaths (http://31.media.tumblr.com/6b838763c2a04c7356eb12aac086d2d4/tumblr_nbdfr6ZW3f1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Scum (http://i.imgur.com/rLT5hMG.png)

Morons (http://33.media.tumblr.com/839ef95775ce258ea9b69e3092b74c13/tumblr_nbaq6t5l8a1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Fat (http://38.media.tumblr.com/c006886fc38d780246bb0541e2158026/tumblr_nbaprdoOzq1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Nonexistent (http://38.media.tumblr.com/4f6b44d2d02dcf5637449c43f59081f0/tumblr_nbaraiM5CK1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Hateful (http://38.media.tumblr.com/04d047edde4912a0ae1d08d5d34eb073/tumblr_nbavqcjInC1tkhroeo1_1280.jpg)

Autistic (http://38.media.tumblr.com/070bec77b1eb20d7127eeb53e24cd739/tumblr_nb9o4uaZLh1tkhroeo1_1280.png)

Deserving violence (http://media.tumblr.com/5fcf2906cbd6a4f0a2d0d118938a6647/tumblr_inline_nb9hwmg56l1t04v2j.png)

Bullies (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/821/909/564.png)

But you know, #gamergate people who are pushing for the actual goals, such as less corruption and more openness, say that they idiots who are harassing others are stupid, but we are called Misogynist! Funny hypocrisy.

Oh look, a list of stupid comments. That's like a typical day at 4chan. If I were to produce a list of stupid comments, verbal abuse, sexual harassment, and death threats that gamers have dished out over a decade or so, it would make the Zoe Quinn thread look like an office memo.

Want your mind blown? As a feminist and gamer, one of my goals is to see more openness and no corruption in gaming.

 

[eberhart]

I really didn't need a lesson on the definition of misogyny.

I'd say the world didn't really need yet another version of misogyny - which is how stuff below can be called, at best. Let's not even start with "misogynistic". The sheer amount of mutations that have little or completely nothing to do with hatred or mistrust (and even more laughable methods of discerning a general viewpoint from various, often unrelated statements) is yet another example how far some people would go to claim a (fancy) word for any ideology.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about black people they get called racist.
When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about Jews they get called anti-semetic.

"Get called" by whom?

So far it looks like "by fans of primitive generalizations". Or "by wannabe oracles". Or, in case where someone purposefully ignores every possible hint that it's about something else than a race - "by obtuse ideologues".

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about women and their beliefs, they get called sexist or misogynistic.

Oh, this is rich. What "beliefs" are inherently feminine? If there are none, what does that have to do with anything? If you are insulting/attacking/lying a marxist dogma held by a woman, you can be anti-marxist (and perhaps a liar) - how on Earth is this "misogynistic"? Are you insulting her because no woman can be marxist? That's... bizarre, with misogyny most likely losing to some kind of mental disorder.

Oh, sure, you can easily find people who declare race/nationality/gender to be X, with their statement looking as if it was a shorthand for "all Y are X" or "it's in their nature to be X". But even then there are two options:
- to throw an accusation that achieves nothing, but it's a great "argument" and a way to establish a higher moral ground (not exactly deserved by the way);
- to make a great and unreasonable effort that asking a question or two represents.

That second option is less glamorous. No chance to shine and be righteous right away. Also, the horror!, not everybody will stand by their original piece. You'll sometimes get "all Y I personally met were X". In case it turns out that "all" means 0, the mere admission is far more embarrassing and has bigger impact than worn-out label with its power spent due to being mis- and overused.

Some will go for "all Y who do Z are X". It's not always based on stereotypes by the way - and there's a difference between people referencing behavioral data and those inventing some natural laws where "Y do Z because it's in their genes". Hell, there's a huge difference between "Z" being "violent robberies" and "average time in long-distance runs".
Too bad that unnamed authority you established (instead of explaining "by whom") can't seem to differentiate.

But it's not even half as stupid as using the same approach when faced with the examples carnex provided.

If people don't like that, then I suggest people stop doing it.

Or, alternatively, if people don't like it, then I suggest people call out those who throw labels using worthless justifications like those above. Which is, thankfully, what they often do.

 

[thethird0611]

snip

Except the hypocritical thing is, those people insulting #gamergate and men, get away with it. Their side takes no flak for it.

Any idiot on our side who says something that we condemn... OH, THE MOVEMENT IS MISOGYNIST. IT HATES WOMEN.

Want your mind blown? As an egalitarian I want more games for everyone as well as less corruption and more openness in gaming press.

The big thing is, it seems as long as your a man, you don't get to have a say in any of these discussions and are automatically labeled a misogynist (which is the hatred of women, which very few people qualify for). Or, if you do try to say something, you get insulted with all of those insults there.

I am not saying harassment is ok. I am not saying calling someone a misogynist is ok (because honestly, it is just like the word bigot, it is just there to slander someone and try to silence them), I do agree in discussing this in a way that both sides can say their points without trying to discredit someone with a false label.

 

[eberhart]

And wasn't she the only character to appear in underwear in the entire original trilogy?

Ha, wrong! Luke is seen floating in a tank, healing injuries on Hoth.

Obviously, not the same league as strangling Jabba, but still

Except the hypocritical thing is, those people insulting #gamergate and men, get away with it. Their side takes no flak for it.

Which is bizarre, given how many of those "nice people" are established journalists, devs, or otherwise related with the industry. People who are supposed to adhere to *some* standards, unlike any 12-y old that could stand behind masturbatory "*****, whore, fuck, die". Those people don't even need to be identified - and we all saw how easy is to influence their message if their peers deem it important enough *cough* Wozniak *cough*.

They are not some anonymous hate-spewer, who, for all we know, can be responsible for one, 10 or 100 messages - or even for adding fuel to the fire on purpose, being attached to no side. Furthermore, they are actually on the side that is, at least by its own admission, championing progress and fighting abuse. I'm already imagining how many would reply with a variation of "noble end justifies the means".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I am not saying harassment is ok. I am not saying calling someone a misogynist is ok (because honestly, it is just like the word bigot, it is just there to slander someone and try to silence them), I do agree in discussing this in a way that both sides can say their points without trying to discredit someone with a false label.

Um...

Words like "bigot" and "misogynist" exist to label actual behaviors and beliefs...in this case "bigotry" and "misogyny".

Is it your argument that bigotry doesn't exist, and it's just a label people use to silence and discredit poor, misunderstood bigots? Do you think it's possible to be a bigot and not KNOW that you're a bigot? "I'm not a racist", said every racist ever. "I just think ".

Not every condemnation is slander. By definition, slander and libel have to not be true in order to be slander and libel. Some of the people getting labelled bigots are quite possibly actually bigots.

Which is not to say there isn't a lot of very unfortunate name calling on every side of this stupid debate. And honestly calling someone names normally does not encourage self reflection, and assholes will tend to cling to their shitty beliefs like drowning men clinging to driftwood anyway.

 

[carnex]

I really didn't need a lesson on the definition of misogyny.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about black people they get called racist.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about Jews they get called anti-semetic.

When people keep insulting, attacking, and basically lying about women and their beliefs, they get called sexist or misogynistic.

If people don't like that, then I suggest people stop doing it.

Well you just proved that you do need a lesson in meaning of the word. Because what you wrote is as inconclusive as it can get. But don't feel too bad, everyone uses strong words wrongly in attempt to bolster their own stance. It's a pet peeve of mine. Words like misogyny, pedophile etc

BTW there is huge difference between misogyny and sexism. One is hate other discrimination. One is personal stance, a belief, other behavior. One can be sexist strictly for personal benefit and still adore women.

 

[Netrigan]

Jesus, you really are about the all-or-nothing approach. Because I praise an article doesn't mean I agree with absolutely every point in it. I thought I had made the elements I was praising clear. Apparently I didn't.

No, you didn't. How is this article "brilliant" when most of what it does it is make dumbass inclusiveness calculations, based on counting the number of characters of each gender or by calculating the shown skin surface of each gender. The entire article is bafflingly stupid. It isn't an all or nothing approach to presume that you'd agree with most (or at least a majority) of what's in a particular article that you called "brilliant". Stop goal post moving.

The context of my calling the article brilliant was in supplying numerous examples of male-centric stories which didn't have to hand in their balls to be inclusive. Furious 6 is a uber-male fantasy filled with fast cars, hot girls, and over-the-top action.... and it was more inclusive and treated its female characters with more respect...

Explain to me how Star Trek disrespected women. Go on

The point is being inclusive tends to add more than it takes away.

Only if you're wearing those gender-war goggles of yours. Because how or what gender is represented in video games or movies has nothing to do with it's overall quality. Are you going to argue that "Fast and Furious" was better than "Drive"? Or do you actually believe than "Drive" would have been improved had the genders been reversed? Also is "Star Trek: into darkness" better than "2001: a space odyssey"?

Star Wars, boys fantasy, lots of female fans. Terminator 1 & 2, classic sci-fi action films and plenty of female fans. Doctor Who, my personal favorite, was watched by all age groups and both sexes despite skewing toward boys. All of these were inclusive.

Gender-war goggles again. You say this "inclusiveness" increases the popularity or the quality of a franchise. I said no, and showed statistics and sales figures. Your turn now, explain the correlation with proof. Also, was Princess Leia not a damsell in distress? And wasn't she the only character to appear in underwear in the entire original trilogy?

As far as the Bechdel Test goes, virtually every time I've seen a Feminist talk about it they've stressed that passing or failing the test doesn't make your movie sexist or non-sexist. The Patron Anti-Christ of Gaming, Miss S... she's said it in a few of videos. If someone made a movie called, "Women And Why They're Horrible, Horrible People And I Hate Them All" and it featured a scene where two women talk about shoes and how they're so horribly irresponsible that they spend all their rent money on shoes every month... that movie would pass the Bechdel Test. Where as a super-serious Feminist movie where all the character spend all their time talking about how men oppress them would fail. Remember, the test came about from a gag in a comic book. It was just expressing a frustration that too many movies don't show women having aspects of their life which don't revolve around men... and it's been horribly misused ever sense.

Drivel, absolute drivel.
Circumstancial evidence based on personal experience, strawmanning and goal post moving. So many words for no arguments whatsoever.

Dude, you keep arguing shit which is so far besides my point, there is absolutely no point in responding to anything you say.

There's a Gender Warrior in this argument and it ain't me.

I'm showing you example after example of really good male-centric fiction which has been positively influenced by feminist thought without becoming feminist. This has made fiction better.

Any critique is just a bunch of intellectual bullshit. Most of it can safely be ignored, because it's just a bunch of mental masturbation. But I think it's worth reading because it can and does change the way we think for the better. You go through my posts and you'll see me saying this time and again in all sorts of different ways.

Mostly I want to see cool chicks in entertainment because I like cool chicks. They bring a cool vibe to works, a different energy. They feed and feed off of male energy. Better written female characters is a big plus for me.

By this point, I don't know what the fuck you're saying. Mostly it seems to be trying to attach all your lovely labels on me. Same game you accuse the Feminist of playing, you're just wearing a different jersey.

 

[AkaDad]

snip

Except the hypocritical thing is, those people insulting #gamergate and men, get away with it. Their side takes no flak for it.

Any idiot on our side who says something that we condemn... OH, THE MOVEMENT IS MISOGYNIST. IT HATES WOMEN.

Want your mind blown? As an egalitarian I want more games for everyone as well as less corruption and more openness in gaming press.

The big thing is, it seems as long as your a man, you don't get to have a say in any of these discussions and are automatically labeled a misogynist (which is the hatred of women, which very few people qualify for). Or, if you do try to say something, you get insulted with all of those insults there.

I am not saying harassment is ok. I am not saying calling someone a misogynist is ok (because honestly, it is just like the word bigot, it is just there to slander someone and try to silence them), I do agree in discussing this in a way that both sides can say their points without trying to discredit someone with a false label.

This all started when a disgruntled boyfriend came out and publicly slut-shamed Zoe Quinn. Then she got accused of slutting around for favorable reviews. We get an epic thread with Zoe Quinn in the title and she gets mentioned countless times. Then nobody produces hard evidence of their accusations, all of a sudden this isn't really about Zoe Quinn. That's why the M word was used by some.

I'm a man, you're a man and we're both having our say. Nobody is being censored or oppressed. I'm not calling anyone a misogynist. People can say bigoted things, and when people point it out, they're not being silenced. People can espouse bigotry all day long, but if you don't like being called a bigot then don't say bigoted things.

My whole point has been if people discuss things in a certain way, people are going to perceive you in a certain way. If people don't want to reflect on what I'm saying, that's their prerogative.

 

[deadish]

I'm going to assume everyone reading this is aware of the so-called "Quinnspiracy" and other events of the last two weeks. The fact that the online community has become a shit-slinging bitching fest can't have escaped many people's notice. Whatever people's views of the behaviour on both sides, I actually want to sidestep all that and talk about games themselves.

Internet feminists' gradual creep into the games industry has surely not gone unnoticed. Now, some people approve of this, others do not: for my intents and purposes it doesn't really matter. What matters is whether or not this is going to start affecting the quality of the games we get in future. It seems to me that no matter how far we come in the depiction of female characters in games, it is never enough. Take The Last Of Us: for my money, this was one of the inclusive, all-round diverse games ever, with female characters oozing with personality and inner-strength. Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist". This was discussed a lot at the time so I won't go into any more detail, but it seems to me that there are now so many manufactured controversies surrounding women in video games that there is no way to please the feminist camp. Recent games like the new Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite have come under fire for being "sexist", and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Such spurious claims do nothing but derail any kind of discussion of gender in games, and must frustrate developers attempts to create a more diverse game by making them either want to give up or try even harder to shoehorn diversity in there for the sake of it.

This raises an important question: should game developers capitulate to feminist demands for a more inclusive range of characters in their games? My immediate answer is a resounding NO. As a person who works in a creative role myself, I value artistic integrity and creative vision far more than any tenuous elements of fairness or inclusivity attached to a work. Creators should feel free to choose the characters that suit the story they want to tell, and not bow to any pressure to have a gender/race/sexuality/etc. quota in their cast list. The same goes for those characters' personalities: there ARE weak women in the world, just as there are strong women, and the same for men. Choosing characters that fit these roles in no way makes a broad statement about a gender as a whole, it's just a dramatic device. Can you imagine William Golding being told he had to include some female characters in Lord Of The Flies? It simply wouldn't work in the context of the story and world he was creating.

And while we might disagree with some creative decisions, ultimately it's the creator's work to do with what he will. Whether that work lives or dies in the court of public opinion is up to us. We can criticise it on its merits, but extrapolating that to making broad statements about the developer's worldview is totally speculative and ultimately fruitless, particularly when they give us more inclusive games and receive just as much, if not more scrutiny.

So what do you guys think? Is there endemic sexism within the game industry and feminists complaints are valid, or is it a storm in a tea cup?


EDIT:

OK, so a lot of people have been jumping the gun somewhat with my use of the term "our hobby". By "our" that I mean all of us, the escapist community. It was not an attempt to depict the debate as "gamers vs. feminists" or anything like that, it was just a throwaway descriptor of what all of us here enjoy doing in our spare time, namely playing games.

OMG this so much. I wish I was as articulate as you.

Hope you don't mind me linking your post to explain my position in other threads and forums.

 

[thethird0611]

I am not saying harassment is ok. I am not saying calling someone a misogynist is ok (because honestly, it is just like the word bigot, it is just there to slander someone and try to silence them), I do agree in discussing this in a way that both sides can say their points without trying to discredit someone with a false label.

Um...

Words like "bigot" and "misogynist" exist to label actual behaviors and beliefs...in this case "bigotry" and "misogyny".

Is it your argument that bigotry doesn't exist, and it's just a label people use to silence and discredit poor, misunderstood bigots? Do you think it's possible to be a bigot and not KNOW that you're a bigot? "I'm not a racist", said every racist ever. "I just think ".

Not every condemnation is slander. By definition, slander and libel have to not be true in order to be slander and libel. Some of the people getting labelled bigots are quite possibly actually bigots.

Which is not to say there isn't a lot of very unfortunate name calling on every side of this stupid debate. And honestly calling someone names normally does not encourage self reflection, and assholes will tend to cling to their shitty beliefs like drowning men clinging to driftwood anyway.

They do exist to label actual behaviors, did I say they didn't?

The big thing is, those words are being used for EVERYTHING that doesn't fit it. I mean gamergate isn't misogynist. People aruging about the agenda being pushed in games media isn't misogynist. People who are angry gaming journalist, some of them women, aren't misogynist. People who harass others aren't misogynist. People who harass women because they don't like women, are misogynist.

Just so I don't do two replies,

I agree with saying sarcasm is kinda bad in an already heated situation, but being called shit like misogynist and sexist and terrorist while trying to be apart of the whole GG thing gets really tiring, really quickly.

 

[Grahav]

Thank God someone made a website called avoiceformen, because men clearly needed a place on the internet where they can voice their opinions.

avoiceformen is an MRA echo chamber. If you want to be convinced that the world is full of boogity-boogity feminists coming to steal your penis, avoiceformen is the site for you.

Not to go all Godwin's Law, but coming across a reference to avoiceformen in a discussion on gender politics is like discussing racial politics and having someone quote Mein Kampf at you.

They have some extremist views. Problem is they are a few of the people who are willing to challenge the feminist narrative and their politics, instead of participating on the another Echo Chamber of "feminism is right, feminism is the solution."

 

[thethird0611]

snip

Except the hypocritical thing is, those people insulting #gamergate and men, get away with it. Their side takes no flak for it.

Any idiot on our side who says something that we condemn... OH, THE MOVEMENT IS MISOGYNIST. IT HATES WOMEN.

Want your mind blown? As an egalitarian I want more games for everyone as well as less corruption and more openness in gaming press.

The big thing is, it seems as long as your a man, you don't get to have a say in any of these discussions and are automatically labeled a misogynist (which is the hatred of women, which very few people qualify for). Or, if you do try to say something, you get insulted with all of those insults there.

I am not saying harassment is ok. I am not saying calling someone a misogynist is ok (because honestly, it is just like the word bigot, it is just there to slander someone and try to silence them), I do agree in discussing this in a way that both sides can say their points without trying to discredit someone with a false label.

This all started when a disgruntled boyfriend came out and publicly slut-shamed Zoe Quinn. Then she got accused of slutting around for favorable reviews. We get an epic thread with Zoe Quinn in the title and she gets mentioned countless times. Then nobody produces hard evidence of their accusations, all of a sudden this isn't really about Zoe Quinn. That's why the M word was used by some.

I'm a man, you're a man and we're both having our say. Nobody is being censored or oppressed. I'm not calling anyone a misogynist. People can say bigoted things, and when people point it out, they're not being silenced. People can espouse bigotry all day long, but if you don't like being called a bigot then don't say bigoted things.

My whole point has been if people discuss things in a certain way, people are going to perceive you in a certain way. If people don't want to reflect on what I'm saying, that's their prerogative.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your first paragraph is wrong, and it is looking at it from a biased view.

The ex made up a post about what happened during their relationship. This included emotional abuse from ZQ, so I don't fault him from wanting to get it off his chest. She manipulated him, cheated on him, and, in her own definition, 'raped' him. The only thing that people were pissed at was the cheating, and not because of the infidelity, it was because of who it was. A journalist, her boss, and multiple people on panels that had given awards to her.

This movement passed her quickly when more corruption in journalism started to form. She is part of the system that #GG is fighting against, but she isn't the main point.

No, you aren't calling anyone a misogynist, but you are making BS definitions up to be able to call people Misogynist, who actually don't hate women. Misogyny is HATING women. HATING. If you don't like being called out that your using the word wrong, then don't use the word wrong. (Did I do that right? Since you said the same thing about bigotry).

But again, the main push of people are discussing it civily, but we are getting slandered as misogynist. The press are running a smear campaign, and they are being painted as the protectors of games and feminism, while all of those insults get a free pass.

 

[carnex]

Thank God someone made a website called avoiceformen, because men clearly needed a place on the internet where they can voice their opinions.

avoiceformen is an MRA echo chamber. If you want to be convinced that the world is full of boogity-boogity feminists coming to steal your penis, avoiceformen is the site for you.

Not to go all Godwin's Law, but coming across a reference to avoiceformen in a discussion on gender politics is like discussing racial politics and having someone quote Mein Kampf at you.

I won't comment on voice for men radio itself. However, I will ask you, if female gender ideologues can have their echo chambers shouldn't male gender ideologues have their echo chambers. Isn't that basically the equality of genders?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

They do exist to label actual behaviors, did I say they didn't?

Well, you sort of implied they were only ever used falsely in an effort to "silence" people.

The big thing is, those words are being used for EVERYTHING that doesn't fit it. I mean gamergate isn't misogynist.

"Gamergate" can't be misogynist. Gamergate isn't an entity that has opinions or feelings on any subject. It's a name given to a loose coalition of people that is wildly informal. It's quite possible...even extraordinary probable...that there are individuals who associate with Gamergate who are themselves misogynists. But Gamergate itself isn't anything.

People arguing about the agenda being pushed in games media isn't misogynist.

Well we can't really say that one way or the other, can we? I could be a misogynist. You don't know me. I'm going to sit here and tell you I'm not, but lord only knows what's going on in my head, right?

I agree with saying sarcasm is kinda bad in an already heated situation, but being called shit like misogynist and sexist and terrorist while trying to be apart of the whole GG thing gets really tiring, really quickly.

Meh. I get called worse when I screw up my lane in DOTA. You need a thick skin to communicate on the internet unfortunately. People will queue up to call you the worst shit they can think of. If you want to elevate the debate, you need to be the one who sets the example.

I won't comment on voice for men radio itself. However, I will ask you, if female gender ideologues can have their echo chambers shouldn't male gender ideologues have their echo chambers. Isn't that basically the equality of genders?

Did I say they couldn't? Did I say "shut down avoiceformen"?

I did make fun of them, a bit, in implying they were a pack of hateful idiots who existed for the sole purpose of shouting nonsense in each other's ears, but that's not censoring them, is it?

Unless we're back to "shaming" again, and you fear the population of avoiceformen is going to enlist for war and die in a trench somewhere because I had a chuckle at them.

 

[eberhart]

Misogyny is HATING women. HATING.

Also, women. Not a woman. Not even a bunch of women that happen to share some shitty traits.