Is Militarism in Modern Games a Problem?

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MaxwellDB

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TestECull said:
MaxwellDB said:
TestECull said:
MaxwellDB said:
TestECull said:
MaxwellDB said:
You're getting the topic wrong. I think that Fallout's kind of progressive at times, violence notwithstanding.
I play plenty of Call of Battlefield: Source too. Besides, does it really matter what game it is? Violence is violence, and I'm pretty god damn violent when deathclaw are on the prowl.


Just as an example, I've never nuked anyone in Call of Duty. I've never bludgeoned anyone to death with a sledgehammer in Battlefield: BC2. I've never stuffed a grenade in their back pocket, pulled a pin and laughed in CSS.
But none of that addresses the influence of militarism [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militarism] on games, and the sort of feedback loop effect that has on society. Violence in media in general is a different concern.
...They're no closer to actual military action. War games are about as far removed from anything remotely realistic as you can get and still be able to call them war games. The only thing tying them to any world powers is the names, locations and skins. Honestly New Vegas is closer to real warfare than Call of Duty has been as of late..I mean really, when was the last time someone stabbed in the heart managed to pull the knife out and stay alive long enough to accurately throw it and get a knife headshot?! That shit just does not happen in real war.
But those things don't really have much to do with militarism. They're violent media. This militarism discussion isn't as much to do with the visceral experience of war as it is how the handling of military ideas and operations are presented in games. What effect does that have on people who play lots of games? Are they apt to see something like unilateral military actions as more or less just than someone who avoids that sort of media, for example?

I've linked a few things in this thread that discuss that. It's not just the way violence is handled.
If there was, for example, unilateral military action accurately depicted, then first of all, I want to play it, and secondly, I don't think it would. No more than any other form of media. Texts on war have existed as long as texts themselves, movies on war were being made as soon as movies became viable, radio shows on war were produced, and don't forget all the TV war shows, and might I add that these media have a better portrayal of military action than any AAA war game has been able to come up with.


The only people who's feelings would be swayed by playing a war game are people who aren't sure in their feelings in the first place. Anyone who is capable of seperating media from real isn't going to be significantly altered by whatever call of duty claims is war.
I disagree, as I've written a lot on already. Maybe skim the thesis I linked at the end of page 1?

SyphonX said:
Get on Xbox Live, and try to ask the average CoD or Halo player what they think of the middle-east, and you'll get your philosophical discussion summarized in about 5 minutes.

They all happen to be keen supporters of their personal state's overseas agenda, and that is remarkable in the information age, where anyone with a non-washed brain, should be easily disgusted on their first digestion of information, should they choose to look for it. On their second dose of information, they come out of it with this strange ability called "having opinions", then people use this newfound ability. It's amazing.

Like media, most mainstream military games follow the "black & white", world view system, and this is reflected on their playerbase.
This is a lot of what I'm saying in its essence. A huge amount of militarist influence on games manifests itself as offering overly simplistic scenarios to the player.
 

razelas

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MaxwellDB said:
We spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined. There were moments in the most recent GOP debate where the idea of civilian control of the military was intimated to be either wrong or only a formality. The United States is currently involved in military actions in a number of countries-- drones count, regardless of how 'clean' they might appear. Militarism in entertainment media is still a very big thing, as is militarism in society in general.
Actually the US spends more than the next 14 countries [http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending#WorldMilitarySpending]... the US is neither that crazy nor that rich. Have you ever looked at what that budget funds? According to this recent Congressional Research Service report [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf], "as of March 2011, DOD had more contractor personnel in Afghanistan and Iraq (155,000) than uniformed personnel (145,000)." Private military companies and defense contractors, particularly Xe Services [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xe_Services] have practically become integrated into the US military [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/middleeast/24contractors.html?ref=blackwaterusa&pagewanted=1] over the last 7 years. In the last fiscal year the Department of Defense spent nearly $316 billion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_contractor#cite_note-Singer-0] (nearly half out of a budget of $689 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png] on defense contractors. These trends do not indicate militarism but rather war profiteering. And game devs are are fundamentally in the same business since have been they releasing annual modern warfare games based on current conflicts.

MaxwellDB said:
You're also conflating militarism with patriotism. It's possible to be an anti-militarist patriot. It's also possible to be rather selfish, but to also have been conditioned by the military-entertainment complex to believe that a state spending a certain amount of money on its military or using its armed forces in a certain way is acceptable when previously you might have had a different opinion.
I wasn't conflating the two concepts, as it would be as incorrect as making the mistake you made; thinking that the two are exclusive of each other. Militarism without patriotism is not militarism but warmongering. Of course it's possible to be an anti-militarist patriot, but it is not possible to be an non-patriotic militarist. And this is not the first time that the US has spent a ridiculous amount of money on defense spending. The military-entertainment complex, as you put it, is a fairly new phenomenon and not necessary to militarism.

MaxwellDB said:
The ad you posted relies on a whole set of ideas that are taken at face value now because of decades of (primarily) propaganda-- some of which might be true, some of which might be false. For example, why do people think that serving a term with the army will make them "strong?" The ad implies the acquisition of both physical and mental strength as a benefit of service. It doesn't really need to explain how this will happen, because it's expected that the viewer will make the connection. Is that fair? Why or why not?

What about the word "honor?" What part of the concept that you have of honor is formed from personal experience? What about media exposure-- and, of what, what from playing video games? Is serving in the armed forces an honorable thing, no matter the circumstances? For example, if one's country were to enter into an immoral, illegal war, would the honorable thing for a soldier to do be to desert? Would it be to honor his commitment no matter what? Would the best thing to do be to have never joined in the first place, to avoid taking part in that sort of quagmire? That's all stuff on which personal opinions are shaped by a combination of personal experience and media exposure.
I think you don't understand the point I'm making with that ad.

Compare that recruitment ad with this WWII ad [http://www.army.mil/cmh/art/Posters/WWI/I_want_you.jpg] and you'll see how patriotism and morality has become significantly divorced from military service. It's interesting to note the difference in attitude between video games and actual military media.

maturin said:
Interesting point. But there is still an enormous appetite among the population for using that vast arsenal on some evildoer for some righteous cause. The military fetishism in this country is completely divorced from the idea of killing. The horrors of war and abuses of conflict is something that happens to other militaries. And we seem to have completely swallowed the euphemisms and excuses of collateral damage.
Generally speaking, I see your point. But what I can get from recent polls about the occupations, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Development_of_public_opinion] the public is mostly war-weary, and the economy seems to have taken precedence. [http://finchannel.com/Main_News/World/89073_Economy,_Health_Care,_Taxes_Continue_to_Be_Top_Issues_for_Voters/]
 

maturin

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razelas said:
Generally speaking, I see your point. But what I can get from recent polls about the occupations, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Development_of_public_opinion] the public is mostly war-weary, and the economy seems to have taken precedence. [http://finchannel.com/Main_News/World/89073_Economy,_Health_Care,_Taxes_Continue_to_Be_Top_Issues_for_Voters/]
Well that's because of the natural reaction actual war. Those same people were perfectly willing, if not overjoyed, to begin those conflicts. Hollywood militarism makes warmongers, not actual warriors.
 

MaxwellDB

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razelas said:
Actually the US spends more than the next 14 countries [http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending#WorldMilitarySpending]... the US is neither that crazy nor that rich. Have you ever looked at what that budget funds? According to this recent Congressional Research Service report [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R40764.pdf], "as of March 2011, DOD had more contractor personnel in Afghanistan and Iraq (155,000) than uniformed personnel (145,000)." Private military companies and defense contractors, particularly Xe Services [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xe_Services] have practically become integrated into the US military [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/middleeast/24contractors.html?ref=blackwaterusa&pagewanted=1] over the last 7 years. In the last fiscal year the Department of Defense spent nearly $316 billion [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_contractor#cite_note-Singer-0] (nearly half out of a budget of $689 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png] on defense contractors. These trends do not indicate militarism but rather war profiteering. And game devs are are fundamentally in the same business since have been they releasing annual modern warfare games based on current conflicts.
Alright, we account for 43% of global military spending. Next comes China, at around 7%. Then, Russia at 3.6%. As a percentage of GDP, we're up there with countries that are heavily nationalistic or exist in difficult/unusual situations. It's still a lot, and it's just bizzare to suggest otherwise because some of that money is spent on private contractors-- that's just the collision of militarism with a right-wing privatization agenda. Militarist attitudes directly impact just how much money and support we throw at war profiteers-- just like they impact how much we throw at the military.

I wasn't conflating the two concepts, as it would be as incorrect as making the mistake you made; thinking that the two are exclusive of each other. Militarism without patriotism is not militarism but warmongering. Of course it's possible to be an anti-militarist patriot, but it is not possible to be an non-patriotic militarist. And this is not the first time that the US has spent a ridiculous amount of money on defense spending. The military-entertainment complex, as you put it, is a fairly new phenomenon and not necessary to militarism.
I never claimed that they were exclusive of each other-- just that the terms weren't interchangeable. I don't think that this is a productive branch of discussion; it's semantic and not incredibly pertinent to the topic. I do think that it's possible to be pragmatically militarist without having any real degree of patriotism-- a land owner, for example, thinking that his current country would protect his property rights better than a potentially invading one, or someone who wants access to cheap oil no matter the cost. These people would not call for war, but they would want their country's national agenda promoted without necessarily caring about anything like national identity.

It's also evident that heavy exposure to militarism can change what's 'normal.' Someone who doesn't think about these things but grows up playing militarist games and watching similarly-themed movies might have not much of an opinion on this stuff, but they also might simply consider it unthinkable to really consider pruning down a currently bloated military.

The military-entertainment complex is older than popular home gaming; it has shaped modern attitudes on the very nature of war and the role of the military. I think that's old enough-- it doesn't change its core just because it slides into a new medium.

I think you don't understand the point I'm making with that ad.

Compare that recruitment ad with this WWII ad [http://www.army.mil/cmh/art/Posters/WWI/I_want_you.jpg] and you'll see how patriotism and morality has become significantly divorced from military service. It's interesting to note the difference in attitude between video games and actual military media.
That ad just really proves how much Ed Bernays changed advertising. It doesn't engage you much at all, does it?

You're adding the word "morality" when before it wasn't an issue. Modern militainment deliberately ignores questions of real morality by emphasizing loyalty to faceless authority and using the stock evil characters (Hey, Russians! Hey, Arabs!) that we've been conditioned to accept since the 80s, especially, as enemies. Military recruitment ads are then afforded the luxury, by and large, of being able to ignore even mentioning any sort of opposing force-- it's just understood that, should you go to war, it'll be against shadowy 'bad guys.' Dave Sirota's "Back to Our Future," Chaplin and Ruby's "Smartbomb," and David Grossman's "On Killing" talk a lot about this stuff.
 

GrizzlerBorno

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Am I personally desensitized by violence in Video games? I think so. I've never stumbled onto the dead body of a close family member in my living room as I walk in, so I can't say for sure..... But I think I wouldn't flip my shit, and start screaming my lungs off until, I pass out from exertion.

Does that make me a horrible putrid example of a human being? Maybe. But I like to think: So WHAT, if I don't scream my lungs out? So what if I get chilled to the bone, but simultaneously shot to the system with adrenaline? So WHAT if I silently pick up the nearest blunt object, track down the intruder, who is still presumably in my house; whack him across the head as HARD as I can and then proceed to literally BASH his brain into the floor for killing my loved one?

Desensitized or not, its more effective than passing out, I'd say.....
 

MaxwellDB

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GrizzlerBorno said:
Am I personally desensitized by violence in Video games? I think so. I've never stumbled onto the dead body of a close family member in my living room as I walk in, so I can't say for sure..... But I think I wouldn't flip my shit, and start screaming my lungs off until, I pass out from exertion.

Does that make me a horrible putrid example of a human being? Maybe. But I like to think: So WHAT, if I don't scream my lungs out? So what if I get chilled to the bone, but simultaneously shot to the system with adrenaline? So WHAT if I silently pick up the nearest blunt object, track down the intruder, who is still presumably in my house; whack him across the head as HARD as I can and then proceed to literally BASH his brain into the floor for killing my loved one?

Desensitized or not, its more effective than passing out, I'd say.....
Do you think that influences how you or others might think about war, though?
 

Brandon237

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Techno Squidgy said:
No, not really. While sometimes I think it would be nice to shoot a certain person, this has nothing to do with video games. More inspired by a couple of books I read, with really detailed executions in them...

I have two main groups of mindsets, gaming and normality. The two sets are mostly non-interchangeable. Certain puzzle solving aspects cross-over, but that's about it.

Games do not manipulate the way I perceive the world to any great effect.
Well said,
You win the thread,
My mind is dead,
This poet should go to bed...

My morality in games and in the real world is very different. I UNDERSTAND that those pixels are meaningless, but human life (to me, arguably to some) is. I am mature enough to not let gaming phase my real-world thought processes and can handle the media I'm given. Fictional media desensitises me to other fictional media, but never the real world. And for a lot of people that ALSO works the other way around. I store and interpret the two worlds differently, s most people do.
 

GrizzlerBorno

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MaxwellDB said:
GrizzlerBorno said:
Am I personally desensitized by violence in Video games? I think so. I've never stumbled onto the dead body of a close family member in my living room as I walk in, so I can't say for sure..... But I think I wouldn't flip my shit, and start screaming my lungs off until, I pass out from exertion.

Does that make me a horrible putrid example of a human being? Maybe. But I like to think: So WHAT, if I don't scream my lungs out? So what if I get chilled to the bone, but simultaneously shot to the system with adrenaline? So WHAT if I silently pick up the nearest blunt object, track down the intruder, who is still presumably in my house; whack him across the head as HARD as I can and then proceed to literally BASH his brain into the floor for killing my loved one?

Desensitized or not, its more effective than passing out, I'd say.....
Do you think that influences how you or others might think about war, though?
Maybe. I mean we are taught by society to think that War is ALWAYS bad, no matter the situation, right? Well I don't agree with that. But I can't honestly tell you if that is because of the media I expose myself to, or a generational thing, or a personal experience thing, or whatever? It might be any or none of those things.
 

Nieroshai

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No. I play games to have fun. I run training sims to prepare for a job and get bored. I've played shooters. I've also ran military and police sim games. Those sims are not the slightest bit fun. The big difference is in fact the realism or lack thereof.
 

fragmaster09

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i like CoD, but i find that since the main protaganistic countries are either the Allied forces, or America and Britain, then it depends, because sure, the WW2 games had a good cause: stopping Hitler, but the more recently set ones (MW/2/3/BlOps) had no reason, seeing as how America is there only because their enemies are invariably Communists or Muslims and Britain is there because if we weren't then America would assume that we had decide to be against them("you're either with me or against me...")and start their racist/politicalist reign of terror against us as well as the Communist/mainly Muslim countries which never seem to have done anything wrong
 

NickCaligo42

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I'd say it is a problem, but only insofar as I'd like to see more variety. Then again, the folks making these games invariably have a great deal of respect and admiration for the military and to expect them to make other kinds of games about other kinds of characters is pretty silly, sort of like expecting Tom Clancy to not write about the CIA or Isaac Asimov not to write about robots.
 

LarenzoAOG

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Really......*sigh*.

Wellcome to real fucking life, you've spent the staggering last 2 hours in a simulated world, in case you can't tell the difference we have supplied you with a handbook that will help you figure it out, would you like one, no, are you sure? For fuck's sake.... NOBODY ever wants a handbook.
 

blankedboy

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I can't think about this thread because I'm too curious about OP's avatar. What does it scan as? D: