Is MS really screwing up?

[KarmaTheAlligator]

This assumes that showing what happens would somehow reveal something better than we expect.

Considering we don't know what to expect one way or the other, that can only be a plus.

 

[NightmareExpress]

Considering I've heard next to no positive things spoken about the Xbox One, I'd have to say that yes.
They have indeed screwed up or are in the process of doing so.

When you release information on an entertainment product, the last thing you want is an overall negative reception.
Simply put, it's bad for business and a warning sign for upcoming flack.

 

[Denamic]

One thing I don't really understand is the rage about backwards compatibility. It's impossible to have backwards compatibility of PS3 and 360 games on the PS4 and xbox 3. They use a different architecture, and as such, would have to use software emulation, and the PS4 and xbox 3 doesn't have nearly enough computational power for that. Hell, even top-tier gaming PCs doesn't.

When emulating a different architecture, every action that's being emulated needs multiple actions on the hardware you're using. That's why you need a 3+GHz CPU to emulate the 299MHz CPU of the PS2. You'd need at least 20-30GHz to emulate the PS3 and the 360.

The other option would be to include the hardware of the previous generations in the case to play them natively, but that'd drive up the price substantially.

Although, the original xbox also uses x86, so its games could technically be made to run on the xbox 3 relatively easily, similar to how PSX games run on the PSP.

 

[Lightknight]

Heh, I wish there were more posters like you. Explaining things in a calm manner and bringing good arguments.

It is certainly nice to have adult discussions that don't devolve into tantrums and arrogant displays of penile puffery in which neither side can afford to admit defeat.

Heh, penile puffery. I'm writing that down.

Indeed, I wasn't able to find a direct source that Sony announced that they wouldn't require a fee for used games. If they're smart they won't do it though, imo. As If you can play used games normally on their system they will have a much larger userbase, which will automatically give developers incentive to develop for their system. If they go the used games for a fee route as well though, to me, that is an indication that the two companies made a deal with each other.

The smartness of the decision depends on a few questions and their respective answers. How much money do they stand to gain by doing this? What do they stand to lose by not doing this? What kind of market share would this help them acquire? Are there any in-between alternatives that would allow them to look better than Microsoft while also not alienating their publishers? Off the top of my head, what if they made the used-fee option available for developers but did not push it across the board automatically? They could effectily and quite legitimately claim that the console allows used games while pointing the finger at publishers who utilize the feature and the money grubbers.

My business degree and my time spent in marketing has ruined my ability to see things as so black and white as I used to. Opportunity costs is the name of the game now and I think a lot of business are undervaluing the opinion of the consumers in their evaluation of it.

I too like the PS3 better than the Xbox 360. (I own a PS3, and before it a 360) Dashboard is indeed better, no subscription for online features is a huge plus, and the games that are out for it too have my preference. (I wish tales of vesperia was on the PS3 as well but oh well I guess.)

Sony's exclusives have been remarkable. I'm really not sure why microsoft drops the ball there when they stand to profit from decent exclusives. No one could claim that Halo and Gears of War haven't made them some cash.

I own both systems currently. I prefer the PS3 dashboard because it isn't wastefully cluttered like the 360's is and is easily navigated.

This assumes that showing what happens would somehow reveal something better than we expect.

Considering we don't know what to expect one way or the other, that can only be a plus.

How can it only be a plus? If they show us anything other than the game still being playable then it will only justify our concerns. Perhaps you mean it can only be better than what we're thinking but I'm pretty sure it's what they said it is or they'd have corrected that by now. Instead, we may see them change that "feature" in response. That's the only feasible "positive" step. But there's not a whole lot of ways to spin what they said.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

This assumes that showing what happens would somehow reveal something better than we expect.

Considering we don't know what to expect one way or the other, that can only be a plus.

How can it only be a plus? If they show us anything other than the game still being playable then it will only justify our concerns. Perhaps you mean it can only be better than what we're thinking but I'm pretty sure it's what they said it is or they'd have corrected that by now. Instead, we may see them change that "feature" in response. That's the only feasible "positive" step. But there's not a whole lot of ways to spin what they said.

Here's how I see it: If the feature is indeed better than we expect, then it's a plus for them and us. If it isn't, it's a plus for us as that mean many of us won't waste money on it. Either way, we win.

 

[Lightknight]

Here's how I see it: If the feature is indeed better than we expect, then it's a plus for them and us. If it isn't, it's a plus for us as that mean many of us won't waste money on it. Either way, we win.

Oh! A plus for us as consumers. Absolutely. I thought you were saying it is a good decision for them that would benefit them which is unlikely.

 

[CountryMike]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

 

[alphamalet]

Yes. Yes, they really screwed up. They essentially confirmed every unpleasant rumor that people had been hearing about the system excepting perhaps "always on", while strongly implying that a) the system's functionality would be hindered if not out-and-out bricked by not being able to radio into Microsoft on a daily basis and b) they would be actively encouraging developers working with their system to require constant network access.

On the bright side, they showed cameras slowly panning around models that look very slightly better than last generation's models that will be featured in games where slight increases in model fidelity are likely to go unnoticed, and suggested that what their customers have really been looking forward to is not new games but the ability to use Skype while watching The Price Is Right without having to open their tablet, smartphone, or netbook.

They started with an audience that was nervous and uncertain, and ended with one that was angry and uncertain (at best). They've made a strong case that any focus testing they might have done only bothered visiting the corporate campus of Microsoft and perhaps some of its business partners, and that they've spent years working towards the misbegotten goals devised off of that badly skewed data.

I have never seen a company that so desperately needed to pull off a knock-your-shoes-off-and-stick-the-landing performance at E3- a setting where they notably have significantly less control and significantly more competition for attention. Admittedly, Microsoft might well be wishing they could get a little less attention right now, but that option is no longer on the table.

Honestly, I couldn't have said it better myself. They royally screwed the pooch on this reveal and better backpedal quickly or risk disenfranchising the only consistently profitable demographic over the years, the core gamers.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Here's how I see it: If the feature is indeed better than we expect, then it's a plus for them and us. If it isn't, it's a plus for us as that mean many of us won't waste money on it. Either way, we win.

Oh! A plus for us as consumers. Absolutely. I thought you were saying it is a good decision for them that would benefit them which is unlikely.

Well, yeah, I don't really care if they benefit from it, I'm looking out for myself.

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

Can you link to where they said that? Because it's no rumour that Kinect needs to be on.

 

[ItsNotRudy]

Can we all please stop the endless childish whining about backwards compatibility?

Just seems that we had a few consoles that did feature backwards compat. namely the PS2, PS3 (more or less) and the Wii (but only because the Wii is just a GameCube with motion controls in it's core) and now we expect every producer ever to incorporate it in their products. Why? I don't recall a global outrage when the SNES, NES, N64, GameCube, Sega.. etcetera.

Pretty much the decades before the 6/7th gen had limited or no backwards compat on followups with completely different hardware.

 

[CountryMike]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

Can you link to where they said that? Because it's no rumour that Kinect needs to be on.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124447-Xbox-Ones-Kinect-Can-Actually-Be-Turned-Off

 

[KarmaTheAlligator]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

Can you link to where they said that? Because it's no rumour that Kinect needs to be on.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124447-Xbox-Ones-Kinect-Can-Actually-Be-Turned-Off

Thank you. Guess they're also back-pedalling about that. Seems that we in fact learnt nothing valuable in the reveal.

 

[Lightknight]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

By completely turning off the system. That's like explaining that you can turn off your reading lamp if you flip the breaker switch in the garage but that it has to be on if you're going to use any other appliances.

 

[sanquin]

The smartness of the decision depends on a few questions and their respective answers. How much money do they stand to gain by doing this? What do they stand to lose by not doing this? What kind of market share would this help them acquire? Are there any in-between alternatives that would allow them to look better than Microsoft while also not alienating their publishers? Off the top of my head, what if they made the used-fee option available for developers but did not push it across the board automatically? They could effectily and quite legitimately claim that the console allows used games while pointing the finger at publishers who utilize the feature and the money grubbers.

My business degree and my time spent in marketing has ruined my ability to see things as so black and white as I used to. Opportunity costs is the name of the game now and I think a lot of business are undervaluing the opinion of the consumers in their evaluation of it.

Maybe I'm being too optimistic. But I'm hoping that consumers will at least be able to think for themselves for once rather than following the new thing that just came out. And that, if Sony indeed decides to put a used-fee in, they will not buy the console. As only when the sales of their new consoles are way too low for their liking (both the PS4 and the Xbone) will the developers realize that the consumers are ultimately the ones that are in control.

However the past has shown that I'm likely to be wrong in that. There will most likely still be plenty of people that buy the next consoles. Even a lot of the people that claim they hate the new features and won't buy it. Which in turn will tell the publishers they can get away with taking away our rights as consumers to such an extend.

The best outcome at the moment, that I can see, is that Sony doesn't put a fee on used games and that the Xbone will tank like crazy. Which will tell publishers and such, as said before, that enough is enough and we won't take their crappy DRM/DLC/old business model any more.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

I don't think the Xbone is going to be great, but I'm not sure it's going to be as bad as made out to be. I just think their PR department is high or something, they've made a real pig's ear of things.

It's going to be exactly as bad as it's being made to be unless they change something. The things we're mad at now aren't rumors, they've been confirmed by microsoft. Hell, some have even been introduced as a feature.

I believe the always online requirements that were complained about (and Adam Orth was fired over) aren't going to be on the console. Can't find the article about it though, could well be wrong.

The point I probably didn't make properly, is that the Xbone and the PS4 are likely to be broadly similar to the user (although I do agree that the PS4 is looking slightly less terrible), and Microsoft are taking the brunt of the vitriol mainly due to completely mismanaging PR. Even before we knew anything about the console the hate train was running full-steam because Microsoft utterly failed to address the rumours that had sprung up.

I'm not saying these features are ok, but I think most consumers are a lot more apathetic than people seem to realise. People will buy the console, then put up with or ignore where possible these features. The biggest deciding feature is likely to be the price point. I wouldn't quite put myself in their category, but I do find it hard to summon up that much bile about anything, let alone gaming consoles that I probably won't be able to afford for a couple of years after their release anyway. I figure people just love to complain, like how gaming is perpetually dying and how anyone kids are always worse than previous generations.

 

[Lightknight]

Maybe I'm being too optimistic. But I'm hoping that consumers will at least be able to think for themselves for once rather than following the new thing that just came out. And that, if Sony indeed decides to put a used-fee in, they will not buy the console. As only when the sales of their new consoles are way too low for their liking (both the PS4 and the Xbone) will the developers realize that the consumers are ultimately the ones that are in control.

The thing is, I like consoles. My pc is great but I enjoy sitting on the couch and playing a good FPS with a few friends in my living room. I enjoy the ease of use and the quiteness of the machine. For parties, I enjoy having those console games that everyone likes.

So I will be buying a console, my only question is which one and the Xbone isn't looking too good right now. If both of them force used game fees then that just means I won't be buying as many games for them, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the system. This may hurt publishers, but more likely this will all just be a benefit for them since they were previously seeing 0% of the money made on preowned copies.

 

[Ninmecu]

TL;DR: In all seriousness, that's the deal breaker for me. A camera/microphone that's always on standby or in use within my primary location(My living room is where I eat/game/study/general living). I simply can't accept that and I won't.

That was just rumor, MS already replied you can turn Kinect completely off

At the time of writing, it wasn't mentioned, but I standby what I said. The console has to be put into a complete OFF mode, as in power unplugged, power switch turned off, everything unplugged, to ensure it isn't on...Yeah...I'll let Lightknight iterate it.

By completely turning off the system. That's like explaining that you can turn off your reading lamp if you flip the breaker switch in the garage but that it has to be on if you're going to use any other appliances.

No matter how you look at it, while it's on, you've still got a potential big brother and they have patents moving forward to support that theory, so no, I will not ever allow an Xbone in my home, under any circumstances, even if they revive my favorite franchises/games of all time. I'll take the hit and watch LP's or hear my brother(Who buys every piece of crappy technology to ever be released despite being an impoverished freak going into University with no means of paying for it...but that's a different story altogether.) ramble on about how great/shitty the story/gameplay is, which is good enough for me.

Capctha: End of Story, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Lightknight]

At the time of writing, it wasn't mentioned, but I standby what I said. The console has to be put into a complete OFF mode, as in power unplugged, power switch turned off, everything unplugged, to ensure it isn't on...Yeah...I'll let Lightknight iterate it.

To be fair, you don't actually have to unplug anything. The standard "off" for the Xbone looks like it'll be sleep mode, same as with the ps4. This should allow for updates to run while you're off the system, faster boot times and even perhaps being able to turn on your system and pick up exactly where you left off. Those are good features, we want those.

However, the way to turn the kinect off will be a full turn off instead of the sleep mode. You probably have to hold down the power button or change the settings somewhere. This will ruin any of the features listed above plus any I haven't thought of. Also, with developers and Microsoft thinking that updates are run when you aren't around, they'll be throwing them out there all the time and when you turn it on the updates should be even worse than this past generation because of their perception that it won't be impacting you.

No matter how you look at it, while it's on, you've still got a potential big brother and they have patents moving forward to support that theory, so no, I will not ever allow an Xbone in my home, under any circumstances, even if they revive my favorite franchises/games of all time.

Microsoft has recently (Win8-recently) gotten into the habbit of forcing things on consumers that we don't want but that they want us to do. For me, it's not even an issue of big brother per se, but rather it's a huge issue of being forced to use their products in a way I do not wish to. There is no reason that there shouldn't be a setting to turn it off and there's no reason that in non-kinect games you couldn't have kinect off to play them.

I get that they want to see us and hear us and gather metric data on how people enjoy games. Yes, that'll make better games. But that's for a study full of willing participants and NOT consumers who are paying for what should be a gaming console. It also doesn't matter that they have a privacy setting somewhere in the nether regions of the OS. Facebook and several other companies also have that and we know exactly how good they are at hiding them and how updates will occasionally turn some of those settings back to default for some obvious and greedy reasons.

The crux of the matter is giving consumers a choice. I think Microsoft is still capable of listening to consumers. But only when money talks (or fails to) in a significant way. It's why they're admitting they made a mistake with Win8 by forcing the metro menu on users instead of giving them a choice. It's that choice thing that makes a huge difference. If the initial sales of the Xbone are shitty and this remains the reason then I do believe future iterations of the Xbone will resolve this component of the issue. I don't know about the other disliked changes though (they stand to make a lot of money from the used games thing and we don't know that the ps4 won't go that route too).