is positive racism as bad as negative racism

[Sven und EIN HUND]

Subtle racism is annoying... Like in just about every old Disney film, but most of it was blatant....

 

[Seldon2639]

Well they shouldnt be irked, and they should be more caring about thr rights of others. And religion is often an enemy of equal rights for homosexuals, so its hard to care about that as a reason. I am pro-equal rights for everyone regardless of orientation, color, gender, or what have you, because I hate having my rights withheld from me. I am not out to put down others out of spite, nor should blacks, or jews, or anyone else. I despise people who want to forbid rights from anyone, only reason I focus on blacks is because you'd hope they would sympathize. Two wrongs dont make a right, is ultimatly what I am saying I guess.

I do understand your point. Mine was (for want of a better phrasing) this:

Given the legitimate question as to whether homosexual marriage is a right (given that homosexuals can right this second marry, they just can't marry members of the same gender, but neither can anyone else), the implication that there should be some camaraderie between different "oppressed" groups is offensive to some, and simply turns many others off of the gay rights movement.

I don't hold a position on whether than reaction is "right" or "justified", but it's reality. I think the gay rights movement would have garnered more support in the African-American community if they had simply said "listen, we're just looking to marry, we love each other, ect" rather than "damn it, you have to support us, because gay rights is like civil rights, you hypocritical bastards". Speaking as a Jew, I can certainly see the logical argument that the ability to vote when everyone else can vote is a right. The ability to work when everyone else can is a right. The ability to go to the same schools, and buses, and gyms as everyone else is a right. Is the right to get married in a way which is prohibited categorically a "right"? Maybe, but to begin from "of course it's a right, and you're terrible and insensitive not to accept that" isn't going to win any allies who don't already agree with you.

 

[Kiutu]

Well they shouldnt be irked, and they should be more caring about thr rights of others. And religion is often an enemy of equal rights for homosexuals, so its hard to care about that as a reason. I am pro-equal rights for everyone regardless of orientation, color, gender, or what have you, because I hate having my rights withheld from me. I am not out to put down others out of spite, nor should blacks, or jews, or anyone else. I despise people who want to forbid rights from anyone, only reason I focus on blacks is because you'd hope they would sympathize. Two wrongs dont make a right, is ultimatly what I am saying I guess.

I do understand your point. Mine was (for want of a better phrasing) this:

Given the legitimate question as to whether homosexual marriage is a right (given that homosexuals can right this second marry, they just can't marry members of the same gender, but neither can anyone else), the implication that there should be some camaraderie between different "oppressed" groups is offensive to some, and simply turns many others off of the gay rights movement.

I don't hold a position on whether than reaction is "right" or "justified", but it's reality. I think the gay rights movement would have garnered more support in the African-American community if they had simply said "listen, we're just looking to marry, we love each other, ect" rather than "damn it, you have to support us, because gay rights is like civil rights, you hypocritical bastards". Speaking as a Jew, I can certainly see the logical argument that the ability to vote when everyone else can vote is a right. The ability to work when everyone else can is a right. The ability to go to the same schools, and buses, and gyms as everyone else is a right. Is the right to get married in a way which is prohibited categorically a "right"? Maybe, but to begin from "of course it's a right, and you're terrible and insensitive not to accept that" isn't going to win any allies who don't already agree with you.

The nice way hasnt exactly worked well for gay rights. It wasnt until the nice way was abandoned in the 70's (Stonewall) did anyone listen to us. I am for human rights, and in that, what reason should any human be forbidden for loving another human? And I am not even just talking marriage. You should stop acting like I am. Even just the way we are treated is not right. Its more than just marriage.

 

[101194]

no such thing as positive racism

I'm sorry man, You diserve a friendly welcome for a kick ass name like that
\friendrequest

 

[Kenny Kondom]

It depends what context. Me and a Black freind have this thing where [WARNING, if easily offended, please stop reading. im not doing this to be able to say the word, it is an example]
when we meet up, i usually say in an over the top afro carribean accent: Whaddup N****r!?!
He retorts back in his posh-est British upper class: Good Day H****y!!!
In that context, we are both on even ground. He doesnt mind it, and i dont mind it. It is not nasty, it is merely poking fun at the two different cultures in a friendly way.. and yes i know there is no such thing as 'friendly' rascisum, but what we do is in mockery of the way our cultures see each other. Should someone i dont know use racial slurrs against me, i will ignore it as im not so petty, and if it was vice versa i would expect the same... although A) i've never done it to anyone else apart from this friend, and B) i'd get the shit kicked out of me, as most of the time there is no way of making them see the funny side of it...
There is never any real reason to use rascisum. from either side of the spectrum. White people did bad when they started Slavery, but the past is past. surely people should be able to slowly get over the injustices of the past to make sure it never happens again in the future.
Yeah, ive had my say... Sorry if i have upset or discomforted anyone =[ wasnt my intention

 

[TheReactorSings]

The law in Texas which prohibited homosexual sodomy but not heterosexual sodomy was discrimination, since it specifically targeted one group. Saying, however, "no one can do this" and having it be particularly harmful to one group is not the same as saying "this group can't do this".

Since both homosexual AND heterosexual men are (were?) being prevented from sodomising one another, it must follow that the law is NOT discriminatory. Or have I misunderstood? (And what's the deal with women? Are they able to sodomise each other...dependent on their requisitioning of the necessary props, of course?)

To labour the point: can you tell me what's wrong with the following statement?

"The law in Texas which prohibited homosexual marriage but not heterosexual marriage was discrimination, since it specifically targeted one group."

(I feel like I'm coming at this from the wrong angle...maybe that's the source of my confusion.)

 

[iblis666]

anyone know if a racial slur is considered fighting words? id love to see someone get arrested for calling someone a cracker

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

if i went to suadi arabia i would adere to thier rules and im sure that british women have to wear a headscarf in suadi despite the fact that it clashes with OUR tradition.

Ya the difference is that in your part of the world, people except that everyone has different beliefs and tries to cater to the individual. In the middle east, they see everyone as "Infidels" if they don't share similar beliefs. So said woman would get shot. Thats why we live in the better part of the world.

 

[TheGreatCoolEnergy]

The only racism that can be tolerated is reverse racism, damn crackers*...


(*Just to point out, I'm white)

Represent!

 

[Numb1lp]

no such thing as positive racism

Sure there is! For example:

"I love black people!"
"Asians are really smart!"
"Hispanic people cook really well!"

Doesn't mean that it's accurate.

Exactly, that's why it isn't positive. Oh, and thanks for quoting ZP, because that was super original.

 

[Archemetis]

I have two friends that we (as in me and all of our collective friends) like to remind on a daily basis that they are a big and black, and they love it.

Honestly, my mates Karl and Mackie can't enough of being treated like Gods because they're huge black guys...

positive racism? Yeah, possibly.

Does it bug them? Not in the slightest, they actually fucking enjoy it. Karl actually encourages it.

As for middle eastern people, they're just a skooch more touchy about the subject.
But really, I get OP's point until one point comes up.

If they're coming to LIVE here, they should adhere to(Or at least fucking respect) our customs and culture (More importantly, actually respect US), for cultural differences, not entirely I understand that they have cultural beliefs that they feel they mustn't break away from, and it's ok, I get that.

But when the people who culturally (Oh boy I can't believe I'm about to put it this way...) "belong" in the country in question get treated like fucking dirt by these guests, then I can also understand the thinking behind racism*, because here we are, making all the effort to make sure these people are feeling welcome and the majority of them aren't even interested in getting along with the people, let alone the culture.

(*I still do not condone racism, and have never considered myself racist ever.)

 

[duperts]

To be more specific (in Britain), its white christian males who get the brunt of it. Just look at the adverts on tv. The only people who look like idiots or are ever insulted on adverts are white males.

As far as immigrants doing as we do, i blame America for its OVERLY PC ways being rubbed off on us. You cant tell someone to do as we do becuase its "racist". As fas as im concerned i feel you should respect the culture you live in, if you dont like it or it clashes with your own then you should live somewere that it doesnt.

As far as positive racism goes. I find the best racist jokes come from my black friends because they can speak without fear of being dubbed racist. Also you tell me whats wrong with a room of happy people laughing after a black man said a racist joke has been told as long as no one has any harsh feelings. Now take out the black man and its exactly the same but can be concieved as racist!

 

[GoldenCondor]

POSITIVE racism?
You're joking, right?

Racism:
the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race

 

[Gaderael]

no such thing as positive racism

Sure there is! For example:

"I love black people!"
"Asians are really smart!"
"Hispanic people cook really well!"

Doesn't mean that it's accurate.

Those would be stereotypes. Like saying all gamers are pasty, malnourished and have zero chance of ever getting laid.

Racism is an outright hatred for someone of a different colour skin or culture, beyond just stereotyping. Racists seeing nothing beyond their hatred and see the object of their hatred as sub human.

 

[SultanP]

Yes, it is just as bad. If someone wants equality, they have to be prepared for full equality, just like women and men. But that's not going to happen. Somehow it makes sense for feminists and people who still care about racism that Caucasian males now have to pay for what Caucasian males did in the past.

 

[Seldon2639]

Since both homosexual AND heterosexual men are (were?) being prevented from sodomising one another, it must follow that the law is NOT discriminatory. Or have I misunderstood? (And what's the deal with women? Are they able to sodomise each other...dependent on their requisitioning of the necessary props, of course?)

To labour the point: can you tell me what's wrong with the following statement?

"The law in Texas which prohibited homosexual marriage but not heterosexual marriage was discrimination, since it specifically targeted one group."

(I feel like I'm coming at this from the wrong angle...maybe that's the source of my confusion.)

I'll do my best to clarify. The law specifically enjoined homosexuals from engaging in sodomy, rather than enjoining homosexual sodomy. It sounds like a distinction without a difference, but it's not. If I say 'no one can sodomize a member of the same sex' it's sufficiently different from 'no homosexual may sodomize'. It's the same difference between 'no peyote use' and 'Native Americans can't use peyote".

The law in Texas, to follow your analogy, didn't prohibit homosexuals from marrying (unlike the one preventing them from sodomizing). It prevented anyone from marrying a member of the same gender. The legislative intent (or at least the suspected intent) is important. The sodomy law was clearly meant to abjectly prevent consensual relations between homosexuals. The law against homosexual marriage was arguably intended merely to prevent anyone from entering into a marriage with a member of the same sex.

The analogies become the difficult part in this debate. If one views heterosexual marriage as "the right to marry the person you love", its analogy to gay marriage is much clearer than if it's only "the right to marry a person of the opposite sex". It's a disagreement which cannot be fixed. I, by the way, have no dog in the hunt. I have no emotional or intellectual holding on the issue. I don't mind if homosexuals can marry, nor do I mind if they don't.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

no such thing as positive racism

Sure there is! For example:

"I love black people!"
"Asians are really smart!"
"Hispanic people cook really well!"

Doesn't mean that it's accurate.

Those would be stereotypes. Like saying all gamers are pasty, malnourished and have zero chance of ever getting laid.

Racism is an outright hatred for someone of a different colour skin or culture, beyond just stereotyping. Racists seeing nothing beyond their hatred and see the object of their hatred as sub human.

Actually, that's not racism. Racism is discrimination based on race, pure and simple. It can be positive or negative. Discrimination does not mean anything more than the ability to discern between one thing and another. The most commonly accepted definition is oppression based on race, but that is not the only use for the term. I was just trying to point out that no, there is such a thing as positive racism. That doesn't mean it is necessarily a good thing!!

no such thing as positive racism

Sure there is! For example:

"I love black people!"
"Asians are really smart!"
"Hispanic people cook really well!"

Doesn't mean that it's accurate.

Exactly, that's why it isn't positive. Oh, and thanks for quoting ZP, because that was super original.

You know what? If someone says something that I agree with that I cannot express as eloquently as they can, I am going to quote them. I'm new to the forms--do people quote ZP frequently? I don't know this sort of thing. Your sarcasm isn't welcome, though.

 

[TheReactorSings]

I'll do my best to clarify. The law specifically enjoined homosexuals from engaging in sodomy, rather than enjoining homosexual sodomy.

I figured you might mean something like that. Chalk this one up to my total ignorance of Texan law.