Is punishing a kid consider abuse?

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Helmholtz Watson

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BrassButtons said:
Volf99 said:
no, there are many forms of abuse, but spanking generally isn't one of them.
So something that isn't a punch to the face and doesn't leave a scar can still be abusive, but spanking isn't abusive because it isn't a punch to the face and doesn't leave a scar?
If you really want to know, take a look here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#United_States].
 

BrassButtons

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Volf99 said:
If you really want to know, take a look here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#United_States].
If you were only interested in whether spanking is legally abuse (in the United States) then why didn't you make that argument from the start, instead of comparing the amount of harm caused by spanking to that caused by other actions?

And since other countries do define spanking as abusive, does that mean that an action is only abusive if the local government says so, regardless of whether the child is harmed or not?
 

Helmholtz Watson

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BrassButtons said:
Volf99 said:
If you really want to know, take a look here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment_in_the_home#United_States].
If you were only interested in whether spanking is legally abuse (in the United States) then why didn't you make that argument from the start, instead of comparing the amount of harm caused by spanking to that caused by other actions?

And since other countries do define spanking as abusive, does that mean that an action is only abusive if the local government says so, regardless of whether the child is harmed or not?
Legal is one of the main reasons I feel the way I do, but it wasn't the only reason. As I brought up before, the lack of scaring and permanent bruising were also reasons why I felt it was abuse. As for other countries, to be honest, their laws don't hold influence on my opinion on spanking anymore than their laws have influence on my opinion on hate speech.
 

Signa

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Instant K4rma said:
lacktheknack said:
Instant K4rma said:
Signa said:
Instant K4rma said:
I've never understood spanking. "Hey, Timmy was misbehaving today. Let's beat the kid into submission." It's been proven to have no positive effect, yet people still do it.
Uh, proven? Wanna back that up there bud? I probably wouldn't believe you anyway because of personal experience, but I'd like to know who is making such outrageous claims.
We talked about it in both my Psych and Sociology courses. These are a couple of the articles that were cited:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-09-16/health/spanking.children.parenting_1_spanked-new-study-author-and-research-scientist?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090915100941.htm
Oh, toddlers.

There's a couple things wrong with the context of this study:

1. It only involves toddlers (ages 1-3).
2. It only involves low income families on the assumption that they spank more often.

I agree that you shouldn't spank a toddler, but kids aged 5-10 aren't nearly as fragile as you think.
Ahh, and there lies our misunderstanding. I've been arguing against toddler spanking. As for spanking younger kids (ages 5-10), I'm still dubious on the subject, but I agree that they aren't as fragile (mentally and physically) as a toddler.
Thanks for that. I told you that I was going to be suborn about this study, but I concede. Kids that young are certainly a different matter, and I would question how enriching a low-income environment would be for a kid generally speaking. I was expecting some agenda-driven study trying to tell everyone how they are bad parents when their kids are sweet, innocent angels. Trust me, in my family, we are genetically pre-disposed to be demons.

Of course I was spanked when I was a rambunctious ADHD child, and not only do I remember deserving my spankings, but the thought of the punishment kept me out of trouble a lot more than my parents realized (it's not like I went up to them and said, "Mommy, I was going to do something naughty, but I didn't because I didn't want a spanking!"). Then in the case of my younger ADHD brother, I smacked him around when he was disrespectful or disobedient, and while that wasn't much of a proper spanking as I prefer to envision them, he did display more affection with me than anyone else in the family, including my overly compassionate mom.

Certainly in my family's case, kids are like dogs that need to be properly broken. That little brother of mine was hardly spanked when he deserved it (failed to learn consequences), and now he's hardly able to make it to his 8th grade classes, let alone do homework or get a passing grade. My two sisters almost always behaved and they're doing fine (no spankings needed). As for me, I graduated high school 10 years ago with a 3.3 and I'm probably one of the best people you'd meet. I honestly can't say for sure if NOT being spanked would have changed anything, but I don't regret those moments one little bit. I know I learned respect and consequences at some point in my life, and I learned them well.
 

Smiley Face

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Depends on how you define punishment. If it enters into the physical, it's crossed a line. There's the standard line that sometimes kids need to be taught a lesson - but there are non-violent ways of doing it, and as far as I'm concerned, anyone who takes the violent route is physically abusing a kid when they don't have to.

Not to mention that, in many, many cases, corporal punishment is LESS effective than other forms of punishment, and frequently doesn't work. Maybe for some kids, SOME kids, it works. But for many, myself included, it doesn't. I learn from having stuff explained to me, by giving me a reason not to do something, and every time my parents tried to punish me, I sat back, took it, and then misbehaved more to show them that crap cut no ice. Let me tell you, if my parents had ever done anything like that, I would probably be obsessed with getting payback - that kind of abuse of trust sickens me.

Seriously, how much imagination does it take to come up with a punishment OTHER than hitting a defenseless kid? Dress it up all you like, corporal punishment is just an excuse that parents use to justify taking their frustration out on their kids. There's more effective ways, there's ways that aren't just wrong.

Then there's the question of punishment in general - to that, it also depends. It's gotta be managed - there's traumatizing stuff, like the original example, there's ineffective stuff, etc. It is necessary at times though - sometimes, kids need to learn their limits, learn what is and isn't acceptable, and learn there are consequences for exceeding those limits. As to how, well, that's already been covered.
 

BrassButtons

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Volf99 said:
Legal is one of the main reasons I feel the way I do, but it wasn't the only reason.
If the law in the US changed, would that change your opinion?

As I brought up before, the lack of scaring and permanent bruising were also reasons why I felt it was abuse.
I'm guessing that "scaring" is supposed to be "scarring" (not trying to nitpick; just want to make sure I understand what you're saying).

I understand that those are two reasons why you don't consider spanking abuse (actually I think "permanent bruising" is a new criteria). My point was that those reasons are not the entirety of why spanking is not abuse in your opinion. I've been trying to understand your full reasoning for spanking not being abusive.

So far you're criteria involves whether it's illegal in the US, leaves "permanent bruises" (which isn't actually possible--I think you just mean long-lasting bruises), causes scarring, or is a punch to the face.

Is this an accurate summation of your criteria for judging whether an action is abusive or not?
 

Monkeyman O'Brien

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I have no problem with smacking a kid.
The sad thing about that news story is that the kid actually responded and she took it way better than half the people on here.
Sad truth is that nowadays people are absolute fucking pussies. They like to go on and on about how you are scarring a child for life if you don't buy it a fucking pony. Most cases the kid is 100% fine and will move on like nothing happened. The only time a kid will cling to simple punishments is if they were a spoiled little shit to begin with in desperate need of a good whack.

As long as you do not go overboard, try to keep the dicipline emotion free and most importantly, have set rules and set punishments already known so the kid knows exactly what to expect, then I have no problem with it whatsoever.

People just need to butt out of other peoples lives and stop trying to make everyone feel like monsters because they don't raise their kids to be fucking pussies.
 
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It simply depends on the type of punishment. Giving extra chores and taking away their cellphone is not abuse. Beating them until they're bruised and bleeding is abuse.
 

Monkeyman O'Brien

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SurfinTaxt said:
what about people who beat kids for inconsistent things? What about people who hit their kids for no good reason at all? There are other ways to get through to them, hitting them is just primitive. People who beat their kids are just cavemen
...
What the fuck? What was the point of that comment?
That comment was on the same lines as someone saying sex between two consenting adults is fine then you coming in and asking "Well what about rape or paedophiles?"
See, maybe if your parents had hit you a little more you would stop and think about what you are saying.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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BrassButtons said:
Volf99 said:
Legal is one of the main reasons I feel the way I do, but it wasn't the only reason.
If the law in the US changed, would that change your opinion?

As I brought up before, the lack of scaring and permanent bruising were also reasons why I felt it was abuse.
I'm guessing that "scaring" is supposed to be "scarring" (not trying to nitpick; just want to make sure I understand what you're saying).

I understand that those are two reasons why you don't consider spanking abuse (actually I think "permanent bruising" is a new criteria). My point was that those reasons are not the entirety of why spanking is not abuse in your opinion. I've been trying to understand your full reasoning for spanking not being abusive.

So far you're criteria involves whether it's illegal in the US, leaves "permanent bruises" (which isn't actually possible--I think you just mean long-lasting bruises), causes scarring, or is a punch to the face.

Is this an accurate summation of your criteria for judging whether an action is abusive or not?
more or less those are the reasons why I don't consider it abuse. Only addition I would make is that I was spanked as a child and looking back at it I don't think it was abusive behavior.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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SurfinTaxt said:
Monkeyman O said:
SurfinTaxt said:
what about people who beat kids for inconsistent things? What about people who hit their kids for no good reason at all? There are other ways to get through to them, hitting them is just primitive. People who beat their kids are just cavemen
...
What the fuck? What was the point of that comment?
That comment was on the same lines as someone saying sex between two consenting adults is fine then you coming in and asking "Well what about rape or paedophiles?"
See, maybe if your parents had hit you a little more you would stop and think about what you are saying.
I was hit plenty as a kid, and Its kept me from ever really developing a close bond with my parents. Its just not right, in fact its fucking cowardly, hitting a tiny defenseless human being just so you can feel more powerful. If you beat your kids, then you are a scum of the earth nothing
maybe your parents didn't properly apply spanking, but mine did and I don't hate them for it, nor do I have such a emotional motivated hatred of it like you seem to have.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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SurfinTaxt said:
Volf99 said:
Where you are focusing physical contact is different, and pain=/=abuse 100% of the time. As long as the pain can be proven to not be excessive(like breaking the skin or causing bruises), it is not abuse.
I dont care what the law says, if you intentionally cause physical pain and distress in a child to get them to stop doing whatever you dont want them to do, its abuse plain & simple.
Louis C. K. said it best, children seem to be the only people on the whole planet that its ok to hit. Everyone else will sue your ass
and I don't care that you seem to have some personal vendetta against spanking, it isn't abuse if don't in moderation/in moderation.
 

SenseOfTumour

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I don't know if I was particularly dumb as a kid, but I didn't find punishments always dissuaded me from repeating a bad thing.

I do think partly it was down to my parents, and this may be a generational thing, they're 75 now, but the answer to 'why' so often was 'because I said so!'. That's an incredibly frustrating thing for a child to keep hearing when they just want to understand the world more.

A spanking wasn't going to stop me wanting to know more stuff.

Of course, I'm nearly 40 and those were different times, and I don't believe for a moment that they were abusive in any way, I just wish they'd tried to explain things more instead of just deciding they were right. (I'd probably have accepted them being right if they'd just said 'because it's dangerous' or 'because it's not police and you'll upset people'.)

I can't help but think in part it was a sign of the times, and a certain arrogance of parenting back then that parents were right about everything, and despite not agreeing with all changes, I do think it's better that children get more attention, and not just a slap :)
 

Rheinmetall

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I generally believe in punishment of children as way to teach them a lesson with the hard way, only for their own protection, and to avoid repeating that mistake which could perhaps ruin their lives when they will become adults. However there is a limit for everything. The gunman father is a sad case of an uncivilized and deranged man who is very dangerous for both his family and society.