Is Street Fighter Sexist/Racist?
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To some people stereotyping = racist. Oh and stereotyping itself can mean showing any features from their race/religion/culture/country.marche45 said:
The definition is extremely flexible and can be twisted into quite literally anything...so it no longer matters.
At the very least it isn't aggressively or maliciously being sexist, racist or ignorant. I think that in an effort to make distinct and instantly recognizable characters the creator pulled from what they thought were the most interesting or striking parts of many different cultures and paired them with physically appealing or interesting characters (character models? Bodies?) Not sure if that excuses them or anything, but I don't feel that Street Fighter is really worth getting worked up about. I guess it is because Street Fighter is a fighting game and a rather silly one at that. It lacks any real narrative, and there doesn't seem to be a way for it do give anyone the wrong idea about any one place or culture (because it is a silly fighting game) so it usually gets a pass from me.
Stereotyping becomes racist when you apply the stereotype to everyone of a particular background. It dehumanizes that group of people, they go from being human beings, individuals, and turns them into something else, whatever it is being not human. It is the dehumanization that is at the heart of racism, that is where stereotyping becomes a problem.Yuuki said:
There's irony in that, given how many ad-hominems and strawmen you're resorting to XDZira said:
That's a lie. You just claimed I didn't know what I was talking about and scraped the bottom of the barrel trying to find a few contrary examples that don't prove your "men are equally sexualised" point. Sorry.
You've only made that decision because attacking me is easier than dealing with my argument.
It's a shame you weren't actually answering people. Instead of addressing points, you have fallen back to "it's not sexist because I'm a woman and I say so!"
While you've avoided my comments on this, I'm legitimately curious as to how you can argue from authority here, yet claim that the black guy who made this thread has no grounds to call the game racist when he's bothered by it.
I seriously wish you had addressed my questions on other cultures and their acceptance of pedophilia, beheadings and female genital mutilation. I have a feeling the reason you dodged the question is because you're not okay with them, and you know that an answer would be detrimental to your stance.
It's just a shame you're attacking and chastising people when you can't even have an honest conversation (resorting to lying about people, strawman arguments, attacking the messenger instead of the message).
You know this exact attack is routinely lobbed against feminists, right? It's a variation of the "someone always has it worse" thing. I'm sure that you, who profess to being a feminist, know the follies of it. Why would you turn around and use it?I'm also very curious about what people who think SF4 is racist/sexist would do when they see a REALLY offensive thing.
Sarcasm aside, have you not seen Dhalsim? How can anyone look at Dhalsim and not cringe a little? He is almost as bad of a caricature as Mr. Yunioshi from Breakfast at Tiffany's.Yuuki said:
I'm not saying the people who make the game or enjoy the game are racist. However, the game clearly uses some racist stereotypes out of laziness.
Agreed. It is probably better than most, but there are still some issues.DaViller said:
You don't think toning them down would be better? There are far too many racist people out there to give them more ammo.DaViller said:
I agree.Zachary Amaranth said:
I love Ivy from Soul Calibur. The whip sword is my favorite weapon in the game. BUT... One of the first things I do in those games is give her a more appropriate outfit.
I would much rather they toned down her bust size and gave her a more appropriate outfit from the beginning.
Just because the game, or individual character, has problems, it doesn't mean you have to hate it. It would make more sense to point out the problems. Pretending this issues don't exist, or are not a problem, or indeed attacking the person pointing them out, is making things worse.
I do have an issue with Cammy wearing a fricking thong. That can't be comfortable to fight in. Sonya Blade's original outfit is a much more reasonable fighting outfit. Rainbow Mika is a more obvious problem character in this regard.Frankster said:
But yes, Street Fighter is better than most. In general, women are not portrayed well in video games. Even those that are supposed to be tough tend to emphasize sex appeal more than fighting ability.
Yes. I should have been more clear that I was talking in general, not Street Fighter in particular. SF does have some problems, but it is better than most games.Yuuki said:
It is a power fantasy. Emphasis on the fantasy. The big muscles are not there to turn on women, they are there to be a power fantasy for men. Real world issues with dehydration doesn't change that.Requia said:
There is no comparison between big muscles on men and big boobs on women.
I think toning them down would just make them more bland and remove that ... hmm...celebratory (i hope this is a word) aspect about them. To me the type of stereotyping going on in something like street fighter or wonderfull 101 works pretty much in the opposite way racism is, for lack of a better word, supposed to work. It's so joyfully over the top that it feels inclusive to me rather then exclusive. It's hard for me to describe why I like em but let me try it like this.C.S.Strowbridge said:
A guy standing on box just shouting "Hey everyone just put on the most ridicoulus pseudo traditional garb you can find and lets all have a party!" and everyone shows up. If you wanna get all high strung and interpretive about this you may even argue that this visual stereotype clusterfuck conveys a fundamentally inclusive message.
Everyone may look completly different, might have even different mannerisms and might even have different philosophical guidelines, but where all just here to have a great time, so lets all get together and beat the ever loving shit out of each other! Thats the spirit of street fighter.
On second that might not be the best message, but it is definitly inclusive.
Anyway thats just how I view this stuff, it realy comes down to tonal issues and my love for anything absurdist. Street fighter realy doesn't feel hostile to me with it's depictions of stereotypes so it's cool in my book.
On the issue of racists using street fighter to confirm or legitimize theyr believes, I say fuck em and I'll be damned if I let assholes like these dictate what i can and cannot enjoy.
So what should they do to sexualize men in your opinion? Why isn't it comparable? Must I be turned on by big boobs, unlike women, who don't necessarily have to be turned on by muscled men?C.S.Strowbridge said:
You seem to know a lot about the devs intents or reasons.C.S.Strowbridge said:
Yes, yes it is.
I think that there's two major reasons for this:
1. Its arcade roots and,
2. It coming from a very insular culture
The second reason has been discussed to death I'm sure so I'll focus more so on the first part.
Fighting games had it tough in the early arcade days. I mean who the hell wanted to play a game about two dudes punching each other when you had more visually interesting stuff like Pacman, the ability to shoot at bad guys with a plastic gun, or the ability to race in a dream car?
I think Capcom realized after their first Street Fighter game that they had to add more flare if they wished their second iteration of the franchise to succeed.
The Street Fighter characters were thus designed with flare in mind--wearing their nationality and ethnicity very openly. The design philosophy seems to be that Capcom wanted the characters to be instantly recognizable as belonging to X country even if a passerby glanced over for a few seconds. That'd be a hook to get them to watch the demo video and then be tempted to give the game a shot. It worked. Street Fighter II exploded.
Other fighters followed the design philosophy: Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, and even a crappy fighter like Primal Rage became hits in the arcades thanks to the focus on flare.
As to what can be done to make Street Fighter less racist/sexist in this day and age...I don't know. Its been a part of the franchise for so long, that even if Capcom tried to be more inclusive, it just wouldn't feel like Street Fighter. I thinking looking at the reception of 3rd Strike's new characters is an example of this.
I think that there's two major reasons for this:
1. Its arcade roots and,
2. It coming from a very insular culture
The second reason has been discussed to death I'm sure so I'll focus more so on the first part.
Fighting games had it tough in the early arcade days. I mean who the hell wanted to play a game about two dudes punching each other when you had more visually interesting stuff like Pacman, the ability to shoot at bad guys with a plastic gun, or the ability to race in a dream car?
I think Capcom realized after their first Street Fighter game that they had to add more flare if they wished their second iteration of the franchise to succeed.
The Street Fighter characters were thus designed with flare in mind--wearing their nationality and ethnicity very openly. The design philosophy seems to be that Capcom wanted the characters to be instantly recognizable as belonging to X country even if a passerby glanced over for a few seconds. That'd be a hook to get them to watch the demo video and then be tempted to give the game a shot. It worked. Street Fighter II exploded.
Other fighters followed the design philosophy: Killer Instinct, Mortal Kombat, and even a crappy fighter like Primal Rage became hits in the arcades thanks to the focus on flare.
As to what can be done to make Street Fighter less racist/sexist in this day and age...I don't know. Its been a part of the franchise for so long, that even if Capcom tried to be more inclusive, it just wouldn't feel like Street Fighter. I thinking looking at the reception of 3rd Strike's new characters is an example of this.
It's not that women are not necessarily turned on my muscled men; they are generally turned off by muscular men. Look at any list of the hunkiest men; you won't find a lot of body builders on those lists. Orlando Bloom is considered sexier than Arnold Schwarzenegger at his prime.Qvar said:
Big muscular men in video games are there to be power fantasies for men.
Likewise... You know why most male porn stars have big dicks? It turns on men. Straight men get turned on more by porn if the male porn star has a large penis. Power fantasy.
Two points:Qvar said:
1. I just said that their intent was not to be racist. I said they were being lazy. It is easier to come up with an ethnic stereotype than it is to design a unique looking character from scratch.
2. You can tell a lot about what a person thinks by their actions.
I'm asking you yet again: How do you sexualize men then? Is it possible at all?C.S.Strowbridge said:
Also, do I have to be turned on by this over-breasted females? Because I am not. Am I gay then? Does it mean that they are in fact not sexualized? Are YOU turned on by giantic breasts?
Not sure. Not gay.Qvar said:
However, it would have to involve showing off sexual attributes to the detriment of whatever task was at hand. I was going to do some research and Googled "paperback romance covers" but of the first few images I saw, two books had a nurse on the cover, one had a women who appeared to be tied up and a third had the Punisher, so I didn't want to venture any further into that territory.
Nope, but you shouldn't pretend overly large breasts are not sexualized. It's just not intellectually honest. They are not there to help the women fight better. There are there to be fan service for guys.Qvar said: