Is The Elder Scrolls setting actually regressing?

[Soviet Heavy]

Barring Arena and Daggerfall (apart from the giant magic robot), does it feel to anyone else that Tamriel is devolving technologically? In Morrowind, we are in a very alien setting, but there are still numerous points where we can see the effects of industrialization and modern concepts being applied in terms of building design. Vivec is divided into the neatly organized squares, Balmorra has canals and bridges, and everything is built with smooth stonework.

Into Oblivion, the industrialized vibe is gone in favor of high medieval visuals, which look nice, but they're a step backwards technologically.

Come Skyrim, and things have descended further into the Dark Ages, with Viking technology (look at the Nord boats compared to the ones from Morrowind.) The Empire look more like Romans than ever before, plate armor is increasingly rare in favor of simple leathers or chainmail.

Do you think that this is intentional on the part of Bethesda? The Dwemer were right into a Steam based society, so I think that there is an ingame precedent for this regression. In TESVI are we going to be fighting in roman or even pre-roman technology levels?

 

[endtherapture]

Nah I reckon it's just the art designs of the various games and the fact that Skyrim is set in a nordic culture as opposed to an Eastern style/cosmopolitian medeival style, when we move provinces things will change.

Although it has been a shit few years for Tamriel.

 

[Lennie Briscoe]

Interesting find.

I don't think there's a lore-related reason behind it, I think it's just because the super-medieval setting is popular at the moment.

Perhaps the many centuries of war has taught the people to just stop caring about technology and just wait for the next Nerevar or Dragonborn.

 

[Zhukov]

I hadn't actually noticed.

I very much doubt its intentional though. I mean, Bethesda have their strengths... somewhere, I'm sure, but do they really strike you as the kind of devs who put that degree of thought into their setting?

I imagine Skyrim had old timey boats because they wanted it to look like Nord central and those boats look distinctively Nord, not because they were intentionally depicting technological disparity across regions or overarching regression.

Some for the Roman-looking Empire. You have swords-and-armour setting with an Empire in it. You want to make the Empire look empire-y. Quick way to do it? Make them look like the best known ancient empire.

 

[Panorama]

Its a fair point, if one place in Tamriel is the most industrialised wouldn't it in cyrodil as it is the centre and the capital of Tamriel, like London would have likely been the most industrialised city in Britain during the medevial period etc... i might be wrong but my assumption.

 

[Lilani]

Barring Arena and Daggerfall (apart from the giant magic robot), does it feel to anyone else that Tamriel is devolving technologically? In Morrowind, we are in a very alien setting, but there are still numerous points where we can see the effects of industrialization and modern concepts being applied in terms of building design. Vivec is divided into the neatly organized squares, Balmorra has canals and bridges, and everything is built with smooth stonework.

Into Oblivion, the industrialized vibe is gone in favor of high medieval visuals, which look nice, but they're a step backwards technologically.

Come Skyrim, and things have descended further into the Dark Ages, with Viking technology (look at the Nord boats compared to the ones from Morrowind.) The Empire look more like Romans than ever before, plate armor is increasingly rare in favor of simple leathers or chainmail.

Do you think that this is intentional on the part of Bethesda? The Dwemer were right into a Steam based society, so I think that there is an ingame precedent for this regression. In TESVI are we going to be fighting in roman or even pre-roman technology levels?

I don't think it's too odd, just look at the world today. Every country and region developed and employed technology in different ways and at different times. China was centuries ahead of the rest of the world for a long time, but when the west hit its industrial revolutions the rest of the world was very far behind. And there are still many parts of the world today who are very behind. When cultures develop separately, the cultural, religious, and political influences affect them differently and cause different things to develop either faster or slower.

 

[Vern5]

Snip

The problem with that comparison is that the entire world of TES (Minus the mysterious continent of Akavir) has been united or at least influenced by the Empire for centuries; there should not be so much difference between any of Tamriel cultures. You can see signs of this influence in progress when you play Morrowind.

The Dunmer continent is mostly traditional in its technologies. Most dunmer use chitin or bonemold gear including spears and bows. However, the arrival of the empire has prompted the use of crossbows and plate armor, which requires considerable knowledge of machinery, smelting, and craftsmanship.

So why are there no crossbows in Cyrodil? Why are there no spears? Surely there would be a need for spears in a place where horses and mounted knights are present?

I actually looked into why the series setting changed so much going from Morrowind to Oblivion. Apparently, quite a few of the original writers left Bethesda after Morrowind was completed. The setting suffered as a result.

 

[Da Orky Man]

How about magic?

Think about it. If a significant proportion of your population has the ability to create fire, levitate objects and so on, you don't have much of a reason to develop technologically. Hell, the reason it is often thought that the Romans didn't industrialise at least a bit is because they had access to such vast amounts of slave labour as to make civic labour-saving devices just not worth developing. Why design a complicated steam pressure-driven mining contraption if you can just send in a few more slaves, or, in Tamriel's case, just blast open the rock with fireballs?

 

[Evonisia]

I've always just assumed that it's similar to the real world, so that different countries are at different technological levels, and when one enters another zone you'd be unlikely to wear Cyrodil's latest fashion trends and armour.

 

[R Man]

Snip

The problem with that comparison is that the entire world of TES (Minus the mysterious continent of Akavir) has been united or at least influenced by the Empire for centuries; there should not be so much difference between any of Tamriel cultures. You can see signs of this influence in progress when you play Morrowind.

Just because the Empire rules the continent does not mean that everywhere is equally developed. Just look at the United States. There is a huge gulf in development and culture between different areas, with some places being very poor and others being very rich, some places being pro-gay marriage and others not. And this is in spite of a common language.

As for the OP, just because Vivec and Balmora looked interesting does not make them technologically advanced. It just means they are well organised, if that. Remember that in 1518, Tenochtitlan was much like Vivec, built on water, well organised and huge. But the Aztecs were not technologically advanced in many areas. Such things are the product of organisation and artistic license, not technology.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Yes. We had an awesome and interesting world in Morrowind which then went to a painfully generic forest in Oblivion and then a slighty better but still generic forest with some mountains in Skyrim. It's definitely regressing.

Edit: Haha didn't read the OP.

Yeah it does seem that way. I don't think Bethesda really put much thought or intended it though.

 

[Vern5]

Just because the Empire rules the continent does not mean that everywhere is equally developed. Just look at the United States. There is a huge gulf in development and culture between different areas, with some places being very poor and others being very rich, some places being pro-gay marriage and others not. And this is in spite of a common language.

I never said that the cultures are equally developed. In fact, clashing cultures have been a staple of the TES setting. The Dunmer openly challenged Imperial religion and practices. The Nords make a big deal of openly worshiping Talos in spite of the White Gold Concordat. I think this is one of the most interesting aspects of the setting.

The problem is the disappearance of two very simple pieces of technology: crossbows and spears. If there was some kind of extended Dark age on Tamriel (which would have made an awesome game) I could handwave crossbows as a lost technology. But spears!? They are pointed sticks! How could an entire continent suddenly lose pointed sticks?

 

[AntiChri5]

I have to disagree, technology is improving.

Look at Dwarven armour. It's ancient technology, salvaged from a dead civilization. Therefore, we can assume that it hasn't been changing. It's a reliable constant.

In Morrowind, Dwarven armour was one of the best kinds of heavy armour around. But in Skyrim, it's fairly early stuff that gets outpaced quickly. Clearly, there have been advances in armour and weapon smithing.

 

[elvor0]

Someone else said it earlier on: Magic. Everyone in Tamriel seems to have the ability to learn magic to some degree, given its backstory (being a daedric realm and all, the towers keeping it in physical balance, read up on it if you really like the setting, it's a really interesting read, also gives a lot more heft to the Aldmeri Dominion), ergo certain technologies fall by the way side. Sure more advanced ranged weaponry would be good, but most major cities have mages of some description running around, who would likely get pooled in with the archers in terms of troop placement; just chuck some magic at the plate divisions and watch them cook with electricity or fire.

Spears is an interesting one though, there should certainly be spears, as I'm sure anyone who's studied history to any degree or played any medieval strategy game knows you have fucking pikemen to defend against cavalry. I think we can just chalk crossbows not being in Oblivion down to the designers forgetting them. Not enough time has passed between Morrowind and Oblivion for it to feasibly be deemed a lost technology. Technology may have become stunted though, that's plausible.

The Empire certainly may have held sway for a bit, but it was less of an empire and more of a union of nations under one flag, most of them were allowed to just do their own thing and act as independent nations for the most part. I'm sure certain areas got a boost as a result of Empire arrival, but it may not have been that much. I know on QI they mentioned that Chinese technology took a massive hit as a result of not discovering a way to make glass for ages after everyone else did, along with their slow start on industrialisation.

 

[[REDACTED]]

The problem is the disappearance of two very simple pieces of technology: crossbows and spears. If there was some kind of extended Dark age on Tamriel (which would have made an awesome game) I could handwave crossbows as a lost technology. But spears!? They are pointed sticks! How could an entire continent suddenly lose pointed sticks?

The Dawnguard DLC added crossbows.

 

[cfexrun]

Barring Arena and Daggerfall (apart from the giant magic robot), does it feel to anyone else that Tamriel is devolving technologically? In Morrowind, we are in a very alien setting, but there are still numerous points where we can see the effects of industrialization and modern concepts being applied in terms of building design. Vivec is divided into the neatly organized squares, Balmorra has canals and bridges, and everything is built with smooth stonework.

Into Oblivion, the industrialized vibe is gone in favor of high medieval visuals, which look nice, but they're a step backwards technologically.

Come Skyrim, and things have descended further into the Dark Ages, with Viking technology (look at the Nord boats compared to the ones from Morrowind.) The Empire look more like Romans than ever before, plate armor is increasingly rare in favor of simple leathers or chainmail.

Do you think that this is intentional on the part of Bethesda? The Dwemer were right into a Steam based society, so I think that there is an ingame precedent for this regression. In TESVI are we going to be fighting in roman or even pre-roman technology levels?

There is, of course, 200 years of strife between Oblivion and Skyrim.

 

[ClockworkUniverse]

I thought this was going to be about originality, where Morrowind was really unusual, then Cyrodiil was suddenly retconned from a jungle to a generic medieval plains region for Oblivion, then Skyrim was that, but with vikings and dragons.

On-topic, if you look at the overall history of the setting, I think this is happening in-universe. Remember, the pinnacle of non-magical tech in this setting is the Dwemer, a long-lost civilization.

There is a lot of variance between the territories of the Empire, but it's very much worth remembering that the style of government allows the territories to MOSTLY govern themselves, meaning it's not unreasonable for them to go at different paces. It is odd that Cyrodiil seems less industrialized than Morrowind, though.

Though with the rediscovery of crossbows by the Dawnguard, as [REDACTED] pointed out, things may be looking up.

I have to disagree, technology is improving.

Look at Dwarven armour. It's ancient technology, salvaged from a dead civilization. Therefore, we can assume that it hasn't been changing. It's a reliable constant.

In Morrowind, Dwarven armour was one of the best kinds of heavy armour around. But in Skyrim, it's fairly early stuff that gets outpaced quickly. Clearly, there have been advances in armour and weapon smithing.

I'd argue that this stems from the different pacing and balancing of the two games, where in Morrowind, levelling up takes time and effort, and in Skyrim, you're a god half an hour out of the tutorial.

 

[shrekfan246]

Edit: Haha didn't read the OP.

I feel like you should usually read at least the OP of a thread you're planning on posting in.

Maybe I'm just crazy, though.

OT: Considering the average quality of the characters/plot in The Elder Scrolls, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to give Bethesda that much credit.

Things such as lack of spears/crossbows (until Skyrim DLC) were probably just concessions they made for the switch to HD and working around new hardware as well as the less-unified APIs of the PC, Xbox 360, and PS3, and the High Fantasy of Cyrodiil/Norse Fantasy of Skyrim were probably just the themes they wanted going for the games.

I could be wrong, though. Maybe Bethesda does have lore-specific reasons to explain all of it, and I imagine someone better-versed in Elder Scrolls lore could probably shout me down all day long. I'm led to believe that the lore isn't really the driving force behind the games though, so I'm not really going to spend that much time worrying about it.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Edit: Haha didn't read the OP.

I feel like you should usually read at least the OP of a thread you're planning on posting in.

Maybe I'm just crazy, though.

You clearly are crazy. The only correct way is to post blindly and hope for the best.