Is the Insanity Plea a legitimate defense?

[SmegInThePants]

if someone is insane in the sense that they don't even understand what they are doing, that they don't even understand they are harming others, then that to me is real insanity deserving of special treatment.

on the other hand, if you know you are killing people, but you're just 'psychotic' so you don't care or you've convinced yourself its for the good, then you deserve to be treated as a normal murderer. You knew and understood that you were killing people yet did it anyways, you are morally culpable even if you thought that they were all out to get you or whatever.

This is someone i don't think anyone would ever feel comfortable with allowing back into society, so why spend extra money for 'treatments' we have no confidence will get him to the level where we'd be comfortable having him live next door to us? Prison, death penalty, whatever is normal for mass murderer's in Norway is what he should get.

 

[Radelaide]

Umm... Yeah? Why does it matter if they get a life sentence in prison or in the loony bin? They're still out of the way and no longer killing people.

Because if he's sent to the loony bin, they're assuming he can be rehabilitated into the society. He would be treated as if his murdering 77 innocent people was a symptom of illness and not a pre-meditated plan of murder. His lawyer (the poor bastard) will be trying to say that "he's sorry for what he did as he wasn't in control of his actions and that he should be able be made into a functioning member of the public again."

He needs to be locked up in a dirty cell made to look at the pictures of the families he's destroyed and never see the light of day. There are just some people who should have been aborted before birth and he's one of them.

 

[xvbones]

it's not enough, that most of the prisons in the nordic countries are like a vacation resort, but now they let THAT guy go free.


NOW THAT IS A LOAD OF BULL

dude seriously what

'go free' is comes from where, now, dude, where did you see 'go free' remotely mentioned

freedom and this dude are mutually exclusive forever, he is spending the rest of his life in a sealed, white room

This guy wasn't insane. He was dangerously sane. He was aware of every single thing he was doing.
He has no chance of rehabilitation because there is nothing actually "wrong" with him.

Forgive me and with all due respect, 'dangerously sane' is a completely meaningless expression and also, again with respect, utterly incorrect.

What you are regarding as 'dangerous sanity' is what sociopathic behavior actually looks like.
Movies and TV and video games have been lying to you for years and years and years.

There is nothing in this man that is even a little bit sane, because sane people do not murder 77 people period, much less all at once.

There are many many many many many things that are wrong with this man.
Oh my god so many things that are wrong with this man, because otherwise he would not have murdered all those people that he murdered.
All at once.

He doesn't need psychiatric care or prison or anything. He needs to be isolated for the entirety of his life. He needs a pit in the ground.

In other words, he needs to be institutionalized, i am glad you agree.

What is interesting about this is that usually, after a spree like this, the (very very very crazy person) tends to take their own life or just get shot to shit by the police.

They caught this one alive.

 

[TitanDrone]

The accused did not "plead insanity." He was subjected to a mental test, because the assumption here in Scandinavia is that ANYONE who owns and uses a his gun to kill people is insane.

The court-ordered psychiatric evaluation resulted in a diagnosis of Paranoid-Schizophrenia, a very debilitating condition that causes delusions. In this case it is likely that the accused did in fact think he was doing society a favour by targeting the young people at a political summer camp organised by the left social-democrats.

The inspiration appears to have come from the extremely negative rhetoric of the far right, or at least that has been a large part of the discussion. Personally I am glad the whole "he did it because of a game"-angle did not take hold here. Some papers parroted the angle, but since education is free and the norm is at least nine years of school, most people know better. Fictional worlds may help enforce pre-existing delusions, but they are not the root cause of the deceased mind.

The murderer in this case, did not want a label of "insane," because it would completely invalidate his crusade against whatever it is he is crusading against. According to reports, he is disappointed with the verdict.

It is worth noting, that in Norway, as in Denmark a ruling of committal is in effect an open-ended sentence. No parole and no forgiveness. A relatively extreme sentence in a system where homicide is worth 12 years and most crimes carry a maximum sentence of between 4 and 8 years. Also, in most cases, we tend to throw people away according to the worst thing they did. So a murderer who stole the victims purse might get the 12 years for murder, and not the 2 years op top for theft.

As you can probably understand, the mass-murder of politically active individuals is viewed as a direct attack on the foundation of democracy. The accused has attempted to reason with his accusers, and he has failed. He is now at the mercy of doctors, who will not let him out of their sight for the rest of his life. IF he is ever judge normal, could in theory be released before he would have been, had he received a conventional sentence.

As pointed out above, prison is better that an open-ended committal to an insane-ward. In prison, he would likely be left to evolve his decease, and after serving his time, he would get out and likely cause more problems. With doctors around him, he will be forced to either see what he has done and begin suffering properly, or he will stay there until he dies.
Paranoid-Schizophrenia usually shortens the life a lot, so he is unlikely to last long.

 

[Ruwrak]

Just toss him in jail and forget about the keys.
Using insanity as an escape. If anything he is a terrorist (he is..) and I don't think he deserves anything else but the rotting away in jail part. But meh we're a nice people who love eachother....

too bad norway like to rehabilitate their prisnors, its not like they are the best in the world at it

anyway yes its a legitimate defense. really though its not like a defense in a i didnt do it way, when you go with the insanity defense unlike the i didnt do it you are generally not acquitted, its not like you are found innocent, just that you are not fully responsible for your actions. its just a different end game, they get sent to a place for medical treatment instead of prison.

The Netherlands give mental patients parole... And every single time someone gets killed, hurt, raped or robbed by that person. Even with escort they manage to escape.

Sure it's alegitimate defense, if he really is insane. I'd call him to smart to be insane. He knew what he was doing, he had a plan worked out for years. I don't call that insane. I call that hiding behind insanaty claims.

 

[Treblaine]

it's not enough, that most of the prisons in the nordic countries are like a vacation resort, but now they let THAT guy go free.


NOW THAT IS A LOAD OF BULL

He is not free. He'd getting committed to a mental Asylum.

This is probably the most stringent ruling under Norwegian law that this murderer could get!

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The Norwegian law system is focused on rehabilitation, not punishment. Breivik is clearly insane and the only option for him at this point is being institutionalized.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Umm... Yeah? Why does it matter if they get a life sentence in prison or in the loony bin? They're still out of the way and no longer killing people.

Because if he's sent to the loony bin, they're assuming he can be rehabilitated into the society. He would be treated as if his murdering 77 innocent people was a symptom of illness and not a pre-meditated plan of murder. His lawyer (the poor bastard) will be trying to say that "he's sorry for what he did as he wasn't in control of his actions and that he should be able be made into a functioning member of the public again."

He needs to be locked up in a dirty cell made to look at the pictures of the families he's destroyed and never see the light of day. There are just some people who should have been aborted before birth and he's one of them.

I would contest that. An attempt should be made to rehabilitate people as much as possible. So if you have to opportunity to both confine someone and try to make them a normal person, why wouldn't you?

EDIT: Also, I would argue that murdering 77 people is always a sign of mental illness. A premeditated plan to kill people shows complete disregard for human life, which I would say is itself, a mental illness.

 

[Kriptonite]

Have no fear fellow human beings, the Death Penalty is here to save the day!

 

[Wuggy]

People should research the legal/prison system in Norway before they say anything about this. The American prison system is much about retribution, whereas Norwegian is about rehabilitation. The Norwegian prisons are luxurious compared to the US prison. Look, here's a picture of a Norwegian prison 'cell':

The inmates study, they have access to internet, they execrise hobbies. It's basically a supervised motel that you can't get out of whenever you want.

There is no life-sentence in Norway, the max determinate penalty is 21 years in prison and only a very small fraction spend that. The maximum sentence for "crimes against humanity" is 30 years. Prisoners usually get unsupervised parole on weekends and such after serving about a third of their sentence. There is a possibility of serving a lifetime in prison with "Containment", which is set for the standard 21 years, but can be prolonged if the prisoner in question is still considered dangerous. However, they could be released, either from prison entirely or just on parole, after 10 years of serving the sentence if they are no longer considered a danger to society.

Psychiatric Ward however ensures that he'll be there for his lifetime. To people who go "they should just let him rot in jail for the rest of his life!", if you're that hell-bent on revenge and retribution, this solution should actually be preferable to you.

Clearly that holiday snap is from a low security prison. You know... petty theft. Maybe some manslaughter, drug traffiking, etc. but certainly not someone who murders 77 people in cold blood.

What do you mean "clearly"? I'm not sure which specific prison that is from, but here is a snap from the prison Breivik was speculated he would go (although not from official police sources), Halden Prison, second most biggest criminal facility in Norway:

The cell includes a flat-screen tv, fridge, unbarred window, it's own bathroom. See, this courtesy is extended to all criminals, not just people who commit "petty theft". Halden has people like rapists and murderers.

 

[Seydaman]

If it is properly evaluated and it is determined by certified doctors that the person in question is not of a sane mind, yes, I'd say it's a legitimate plea, not that they should run free. Just have them locked up in a different style than random criminal no. 5758

 

[Jadak]

Depends how you define defense.

It's not like they're going to go "Oh, you only killed all those people because you're fucking insane? Well okay then, you're free to go, enjoy your day!".

So assuming that particular aspect isn't a factor, then yeah. Why wouldn't it be an acceptable defense? It just means he'll end up locked up with a bunch of fellow crazies instead of the sane criminals. I doubt that's going to be a particularly cheerful way to live out ones life, so I don't really see the problem.

The only valid point against it I could see is if the death penalty is an option, and pleading insanity allows that particular to be avoided. But in general, no, there's nothing wrong with it. The important part is that he's kept the fuck away from the general public and as much as people may not like to complain, how the guy lives once he's locked up doesn't actually make any difference to anyone. The only difference between letting the guy live out a life of isolated luxury somewhere and eternal torture is that it will briefly make people happy knowing that he's suffering and pissed off knowing that he's happy. Both of which are completely irreverent when the person in question no longer has any exposure to those people.

 

[xvbones]

[
The Norwegians are basically peace-loving hippies, and it's not going down in the way you so describe. Sure, a mental ward isn't a playground there either, but the only time you will be strapped to a bed is if you misbehave. Breivik, for all his lack of emphaty, isn't without logic. He isn't going to misbehave if he knows it will make his situation worse.

I personally think he belongs in a prison.

With all due respect, you have very clearly spent no time in an actual mental facility.
That is a very good thing. It is probably worth bragging about.

Please, please take my word when I say that the rest of this man's life will be spent very heavily drugged and that he will, not if, not when, will, spend a great deal of time strapped to a bed.

Peace-loving hippies whatever, that is how they treat inmates at their prisons.

That is because at their prisons, they are trying to rehabilitate people to set them on a productive path. Former convicts, unlike in America, are not treated as current convicts and thus can actually get jobs, so that they do not fall back into bad habits.

But they are not putting him into prison.
Prison is not happening to him.
They are not trying to rehabilitate this man.
This man will be in the mental institution for the rest of his life.

They want to make certain he is never again a danger to himself or to anyone else for the rest of his life.

Which means, with respect, drugs that shut most of his brain completely off, a bed with built-in restraints and drool.

Lots and lots of drool.

For the rest of his life.

 

[Seydaman]

People should research the legal/prison system in Norway before they say anything about this. The American prison system is much about retribution, whereas Norwegian is about rehabilitation. The Norwegian prisons are luxurious compared to the US prison. Look, here's a picture of a Norwegian prison 'cell':

The inmates study, they have access to internet, they execrise hobbies. It's basically a supervised motel that you can't get out of whenever you want.

There is no life-sentence in Norway, the max determinate penalty is 21 years in prison and only a very small fraction spend that. The maximum sentence for "crimes against humanity" is 30 years. Prisoners usually get unsupervised parole on weekends and such after serving about a third of their sentence. There is a possibility of serving a lifetime in prison with "Containment", which is set for the standard 21 years, but can be prolonged if the prisoner in question is still considered dangerous. However, they could be released, either from prison entirely or just on parole, after 10 years of serving the sentence if they are no longer considered a danger to society.

Psychiatric Ward however ensures that he'll be there for his lifetime. To people who go "they should just let him rot in jail for the rest of his life!", if you're that hell-bent on revenge and retribution, this solution should actually be preferable to you.

Clearly that holiday snap is from a low security prison. You know... petty theft. Maybe some manslaughter, drug traffiking, etc. but certainly not someone who murders 77 people in cold blood.

What do you mean "clearly"? I'm not sure which specific prison that is from, but here is a snap from the prison Breivik was speculated he would go (although not from official police sources), Halden Prison, second most biggest criminal facility in Norway:

The cell includes a flat-screen tv, fridge, unbarred window, it's own bathroom. See, this courtesy is extended to all criminals, not just people who commit "petty theft". Halden has people like rapists and murderers.

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

 

[Treblaine]

snip

Soon as I saw your post I was like "I don't remember replying to this thread :S"

Well this is awkward. And both our names even begin with "T".

Erm. In my defence I made this animated gif myself... and I thought I was being so original. I just wanted one where doomguy stares intently and occasionally glances with cautious scepticism to either side, not going through the whole range of rage and wounding.

I think it's better for all parties considered that he is put into a psychiatric ward, and here is why:

Now that he has been officially declared insane, it makes his' "statement" lose all credibility and his supporters or other racist bigots can also be viewed as mentally impaired douches. Now there is going to be a lot less people that can publicly agree with him.

If he had been sentenced to death, he would've just become a martyr for his "holy cause", thus locking him up in a mental hospital is a lot better alternative.

I think this is the best point so far.

Various people in prison have been hailed as heroes of some sort, daring rogues even, but not insane people in prison! If anything they are looked at with macabre fascination like an exotic and dangerous animal locked in a cage, but no one tries to make sense of a gorilla's pacing, we all know its a beast without reason. Same with insane people.

I bet all those people who read his thousand-page manifesto are feeling pretty foolish now, like realising they've just wasted hours conversing with a crazy eyed street-vagrant as if he might have had a genuine point about the CIA controlling our minds with satellites.

 

[xvbones]

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

If it is called for. Mostly they get a lot of like job training, ish. Sometimes specifically, sometimes more like job counseling, how to not be a criminal, in essence.

It has been working really well, is my understanding. Only like something like 20% of their criminals come back to prison, compared to America which is something like 60%.

People can hate on the Norwegians and call them hippies as much as they want, it does not matter because it apparently works a hell of a lot better than our system.

All I'll say is that every single application for every single job in America has the words "have you ever committed a felony" written on it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't know why people don't get this. And here of all places... you'd think no one has ever heard of Arkham Asylum. Figure this guy is going someplace like it just much less interesting yet vastly more disturbing and depressing.

Honestly, it being Norway, he probably will be kept in a bright, clean, well-lit room and his orderlies will probably never mistreat him.

This man will never not be heavily medicated full stop.

The rest of this man's existence involve very simple shapes and several gallons of drool, I shit you not.

My ex's friend self admitted to a state run psychiatric hospital. My ex asked if I would call her and talk to her because she was really depressed and just needed someone to talk to every now and again. When I talked to her she was mostly coherent but had just taken her meds and started to trail off towards the end of our conversation. In the background I could hear people shouting and acting out. I barely knew her friend yet she was so happy just to talk to me and was practically begging me to stay on the phone with her and call back another time. She cried when she had to get off the phone. That was depressing enough just talking to her, I can not imagine actually having to be there let alone in an institution for the criminally insane. They don't have to mistreat you. Just being in an environment like that is practically cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[Wuggy]

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

As far as I know, yes, they do get counseling in the facility. The whole point is not to estrange the inmates from normal society by making their life miserable. And so far it has worked. If I remember correctly, the re-offending rate is around 30% lower than in, say, United States. It's a very pragmatic approach to the justice system, and I'm actually in support of that. Result matters more to me than sating my sense of 'justified vengeance' or some such.