Is the second hand market really bad for the industry ?

[Doctor Greenthumb]

personaly I think publishers should look at valve and what theyve done with steam sales, I rearly buy a used game now when i can just wait for it to pop up cheap on steam. Obviouslly this is a bit harder for consoles but with the x box marxet place and the playstation network store I dont see why they dont push to make this a more competitive rival to second hand sales, pluse with no phisical media its a higher profit anyway.

Simply trying to stop or prevent the second hand market is just going to piss people off and persaude more people to simply download a pirate copy, same thing happens with heavy drm copywrite protecion. Inever used to get piret games untill it got to the point where drm was so bad getting a pirate copy and cracking it was easier than installing a paid for copy. So why would I pay an extra £10 on top of the used price to play a game second hand?

 

[MikailCaboose]

It's mostly bad for yourself.
Buying used in game shops is like piracy that you have to pay for.

You either support the people who make those games for you, or you don't. If you don't, the how doesn't matter to anyone but you.

No ! it's not like piracy, buying the game second handed is a totally legitimate way for buying a game, piracy is basically theft.

No, it isn't theft, because nobody else has something missing.

It's simple logic: whether you don't play at all, or play and pirate; the effect on the industry is the same: no money is made. And if you do pirate, nobody even has to know.

Only buying an unused copy makes a difference to anyone in the game industry. Between the other alternatives, there is no difference that matters.

There is the legality of the matter, but copying games in the privacy of your home doesn't interest the police and rightly so. There exist important matters.

4 options:

1. You can be a useful fool like me and buy games first hand; join an altruistic minority that carries the entire game industry on their backs for everyone else to enjoy.

2. You can be both clueless and useless, while wasting your money in used game shops.

3. You can pirate like a smart kid would. Doesn't contribute, but no harm done either. That's how almost all gamers start, even the first type.

4. You can trade games directly with other gamers, which is both legal and smart, but that usually means doing some of 1 or 2 aswell.

Think about this though. For a used sale to exist, a sale would have first been made. Then, say, Gamestop bought it back. The person often puts it towards a new game, as I mentioned in my above post. We can argue about the affects of Piracy (I hate it, personally), but I argue that used games have a net positive on the industry due to all the money flowing around.

All the profit Gamestop makes, is money that the customer cannot spend on games, so NO.

There often won't even be a 1:1 new sale for a used sale. Used games can go through Gamestop for several iterations.
The customers then typically buy a used game for the games they trade in, while putting in more of their own money.

There is no positive effect for the publishers and develoipers. Follow the money: it goes to Gamestop.

I never said always. However, as I posted with ACTUAL numbers, it often does

According to Gamestop's annual report for fiscal 2010, and the president of Gamestop, they purchased over $1 billion in used products from gamers, $750 million of which was used on new product in the same visit. Extrapolate those numbers across the entire retail space, and you're looking at at least $1 billion dollars the used market injects directly into the new market. That's $1 billion dollars gamers got to spend on new games that they didn't previously have. Now imagine all those extra customers buying DLC.

So used games have no positive effect? At all? I think this shows that this isn't the case.

You post some numbers, but you don't realise they prove the opposite of what you claim.

Firstly, it only says they puchased over 1 billion, but it doesn't say for how much they sold those same 2nd hand games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that number is much higher. 5 billion is a reasonable guess considering they sell for 10 times as much, as that they give you.

They gave 1 billion. They took 5 billion.

Oh no! They are a business! They made money! Quick, call the Justice League! Batman will stop them!

Joking aside, I think I get what you are saying. I just diagree with the "demonize Gamestop" line of thought. If someone makes money legally, I'm all in favor of it. And that's all they are doing. They are helping to create sales that would not have existed in the first place.

Also, we are throwing around hypothetical dollars for sales that might not have existed in the first place

It's may not a crime to dupe fools, but you're still a fool if you do business with them.

Gamestop don't create sales. Someone who will buy a used game for $55, will also buy a new game for $60, if the used option is taken away. He'll buy 9 games out of 10, out of the same budget.

And then what do you do with used games that are no longer in production? Not all companies have a large of a selection for their downloadable retro games.

 

[CM156_v1legacy]

SNIP

In order of your points
1) That still does not prove the person who only spent $50 is willing to spend $60. Further, if these hits do sell millions the first week, then why are they concerned with used games?
2) It's enought now, I would say that much. And +10 from $50 is actually 20% if you have the Power Up Rewards program.
3) And a lot of time, the people I see buy used are those who don't have the money to buy new. Your logic hurts itself. How can THEY spend money they don't have
4) Ripping them off? I get great games at Gamestop for lower prices. They've helped me in the past greatly. I wish people would stop demonizing Gamestop that some games sell well because they are good, some sell well despite being bad, some sell poor despite being good, and some games sell poor because they are bad.

 

[Richardplex]

personaly I think publishers should look at valve and what theyve done with steam sales, I rearly buy a used game now when i can just wait for it to pop up cheap on steam. Obviouslly this is a bit harder for consoles but with the x box marxet place and the playstation network store I dont see why they dont push to make this a more competitive rival to second hand sales, pluse with no phisical media its a higher profit anyway.

This. Gamers get games cheaper, publishers get money, the middleman still gets money, everyone wins. Hopefully this is the direction the industry will move towards.

 

[veloper]

It's mostly bad for yourself.
Buying used in game shops is like piracy that you have to pay for.

You either support the people who make those games for you, or you don't. If you don't, the how doesn't matter to anyone but you.

No ! it's not like piracy, buying the game second handed is a totally legitimate way for buying a game, piracy is basically theft.

No, it isn't theft, because nobody else has something missing.

It's simple logic: whether you don't play at all, or play and pirate; the effect on the industry is the same: no money is made. And if you do pirate, nobody even has to know.

Only buying an unused copy makes a difference to anyone in the game industry. Between the other alternatives, there is no difference that matters.

There is the legality of the matter, but copying games in the privacy of your home doesn't interest the police and rightly so. There exist important matters.

4 options:

1. You can be a useful fool like me and buy games first hand; join an altruistic minority that carries the entire game industry on their backs for everyone else to enjoy.

2. You can be both clueless and useless, while wasting your money in used game shops.

3. You can pirate like a smart kid would. Doesn't contribute, but no harm done either. That's how almost all gamers start, even the first type.

4. You can trade games directly with other gamers, which is both legal and smart, but that usually means doing some of 1 or 2 aswell.

Think about this though. For a used sale to exist, a sale would have first been made. Then, say, Gamestop bought it back. The person often puts it towards a new game, as I mentioned in my above post. We can argue about the affects of Piracy (I hate it, personally), but I argue that used games have a net positive on the industry due to all the money flowing around.

All the profit Gamestop makes, is money that the customer cannot spend on games, so NO.

There often won't even be a 1:1 new sale for a used sale. Used games can go through Gamestop for several iterations.
The customers then typically buy a used game for the games they trade in, while putting in more of their own money.

There is no positive effect for the publishers and develoipers. Follow the money: it goes to Gamestop.

I never said always. However, as I posted with ACTUAL numbers, it often does

According to Gamestop's annual report for fiscal 2010, and the president of Gamestop, they purchased over $1 billion in used products from gamers, $750 million of which was used on new product in the same visit. Extrapolate those numbers across the entire retail space, and you're looking at at least $1 billion dollars the used market injects directly into the new market. That's $1 billion dollars gamers got to spend on new games that they didn't previously have. Now imagine all those extra customers buying DLC.

So used games have no positive effect? At all? I think this shows that this isn't the case.

You post some numbers, but you don't realise they prove the opposite of what you claim.

Firstly, it only says they puchased over 1 billion, but it doesn't say for how much they sold those same 2nd hand games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that number is much higher. 5 billion is a reasonable guess considering they sell for 10 times as much, as that they give you.

They gave 1 billion. They took 5 billion.

Oh no! They are a business! They made money! Quick, call the Justice League! Batman will stop them!

Joking aside, I think I get what you are saying. I just diagree with the "demonize Gamestop" line of thought. If someone makes money legally, I'm all in favor of it. And that's all they are doing. They are helping to create sales that would not have existed in the first place.

Also, we are throwing around hypothetical dollars for sales that might not have existed in the first place

It's may not a crime to dupe fools, but you're still a fool if you do business with them.

Gamestop don't create sales. Someone who will buy a used game for $55, will also buy a new game for $60, if the used option is taken away. He'll buy 9 games out of 10, out of the same budget.

And then what do you do with used games that are no longer in production? Not all companies have a large of a selection for their downloadable retro games.

Ebay? Piracy? Take your pick.

 

[TeeBs]

There's a used market for everything.

Why should games be any different?

I just bought Darksiders today, pre-owned, it's alright, but I wouldn't want to have payed full price for it, but if it stays the way it is, or gets better, then I will probably buy Darksiders 2 brand new.

The same reason why I'll buy the next Dead Space game brand new.

Pre-owned games help devs more than they think.

Your a special case though, alot of gamers, or at least most of my friends, buy used games almost exclusively. You don't see this problems in other industrys, you don't see people buying used music exclusively or used movies. Hell for the most part its Downloads and Streaming.

Second hand might as well be illegal downloaded as far as game publishers are concerned. It wouldn't be a big deal if they were getting some of the profits.

 

[MikailCaboose]

It's mostly bad for yourself.
Buying used in game shops is like piracy that you have to pay for.

You either support the people who make those games for you, or you don't. If you don't, the how doesn't matter to anyone but you.

No ! it's not like piracy, buying the game second handed is a totally legitimate way for buying a game, piracy is basically theft.

No, it isn't theft, because nobody else has something missing.

It's simple logic: whether you don't play at all, or play and pirate; the effect on the industry is the same: no money is made. And if you do pirate, nobody even has to know.

Only buying an unused copy makes a difference to anyone in the game industry. Between the other alternatives, there is no difference that matters.

There is the legality of the matter, but copying games in the privacy of your home doesn't interest the police and rightly so. There exist important matters.

4 options:

1. You can be a useful fool like me and buy games first hand; join an altruistic minority that carries the entire game industry on their backs for everyone else to enjoy.

2. You can be both clueless and useless, while wasting your money in used game shops.

3. You can pirate like a smart kid would. Doesn't contribute, but no harm done either. That's how almost all gamers start, even the first type.

4. You can trade games directly with other gamers, which is both legal and smart, but that usually means doing some of 1 or 2 aswell.

Think about this though. For a used sale to exist, a sale would have first been made. Then, say, Gamestop bought it back. The person often puts it towards a new game, as I mentioned in my above post. We can argue about the affects of Piracy (I hate it, personally), but I argue that used games have a net positive on the industry due to all the money flowing around.

All the profit Gamestop makes, is money that the customer cannot spend on games, so NO.

There often won't even be a 1:1 new sale for a used sale. Used games can go through Gamestop for several iterations.
The customers then typically buy a used game for the games they trade in, while putting in more of their own money.

There is no positive effect for the publishers and develoipers. Follow the money: it goes to Gamestop.

I never said always. However, as I posted with ACTUAL numbers, it often does

According to Gamestop's annual report for fiscal 2010, and the president of Gamestop, they purchased over $1 billion in used products from gamers, $750 million of which was used on new product in the same visit. Extrapolate those numbers across the entire retail space, and you're looking at at least $1 billion dollars the used market injects directly into the new market. That's $1 billion dollars gamers got to spend on new games that they didn't previously have. Now imagine all those extra customers buying DLC.

So used games have no positive effect? At all? I think this shows that this isn't the case.

You post some numbers, but you don't realise they prove the opposite of what you claim.

Firstly, it only says they puchased over 1 billion, but it doesn't say for how much they sold those same 2nd hand games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that number is much higher. 5 billion is a reasonable guess considering they sell for 10 times as much, as that they give you.

They gave 1 billion. They took 5 billion.

Oh no! They are a business! They made money! Quick, call the Justice League! Batman will stop them!

Joking aside, I think I get what you are saying. I just diagree with the "demonize Gamestop" line of thought. If someone makes money legally, I'm all in favor of it. And that's all they are doing. They are helping to create sales that would not have existed in the first place.

Also, we are throwing around hypothetical dollars for sales that might not have existed in the first place

It's may not a crime to dupe fools, but you're still a fool if you do business with them.

Gamestop don't create sales. Someone who will buy a used game for $55, will also buy a new game for $60, if the used option is taken away. He'll buy 9 games out of 10, out of the same budget.

And then what do you do with used games that are no longer in production? Not all companies have a large of a selection for their downloadable retro games.

Ebay? Piracy? Take your pick.

Ebay: Yeah, $7 for Eternal Darkness at Gamestop is a better deal than what Ebay was offering at the time.
Piracy: Gamecube emulators are crap, and the roms are rare.

 

[veloper]

SNIP

In order of your points
1) That still does not prove the person who only spent $50 is willing to spend $60. Further, if these hits do sell millions the first week, then why are they concerned with used games?
2) It's enought now, I would say that much. And +10 from $50 is actually 20% if you have the Power Up Rewards program.
3) And a lot of time, the people I see buy used are those who don't have the money to buy new. Your logic hurts itself. How can THEY spend money they don't have
4) Ripping them off? I get great games at Gamestop for lower prices. They've helped me in the past greatly. I wish people would stop demonizing Gamestop that some games sell well because they are good, some sell well despite being bad, some sell poor despite being good, and some games sell poor because they are bad.

1. It's close enough for anyone who can use common sense.
2. That's the pittance you get in return for letting them screw you over repeatedly.
3. They have money and they're buying, for nearly the same price. Now someone who's strapped for cash won't buy for $50 either. There's a big difference between saving a tenner and saving 50 bucks.
4. Yes. A ripoff, because the CD and the effort to print data on it, is only worth a few cents, not $50. The price of games are not the manufactoring costs, but the one time development costs. So for a new game $60 just might makes some sense (the publisher gets his money back). $55 or $50 for a used game is Gamestop having an easy scam.

 

[The Lost Big Boss]

Used games are completely different then almost any other used market. When you buy a used sofa, you pay less money because it will most likely be in a lesser condition then purchased new. Games don't work that way, buying a game used means you get the same amount of content as someone who bought it new.

But that is now changing because of publishers creating online passes, that when the combined with the cost of a used sale (55$ for a new used game) will make it more expensive then just buying it new.

Its not bad for the industry, but it really isn't helping.

It also doesn't help gamestop's image when it consistently hounds people to buy used games. I swear to god every time I walk in to get something I am asked at least five times if I want that copy used, saving all of five dollars.

 

[cthulhumythos]

Okay when I heard about the Ubisoft pass I got pissed, now Ubisoft, one of my all time favorite gaming companies has joined the war against used games,What with this new trend ? do publishers really need extra 10$ from a gamer who bought this game second handed ? it makes me mad because I buy used games a lot.

Is the second hand market really that problematic? I mean people have been selling and buying used games for decades and NOW its suddenly a big problem ?

Escapists am I missing something here ? is there a reason to justify all this ?

because used games give only the distributor money. not the people who actually put work into the game. due to the fact that it's friggin expensive to produce games, the guys who make these things need the money.

this is one of the many reasons i buy new. another reason is because i don't feel gamestop needs even more money. support the guys who make the games.

 

[Midnight Llamaman]

It's a bigger problem than piracy I think (and from what I've seen). A pirated game is maybe 90% of the time not a lost sale, that person simply wouldn't have purchased it if they couldn't have downloaded it.

A second hand game from a videogame store, however - is generally going to be a lost sale. You want VideoGame2011 Extreme but it's £39.99, normally you'd consider and stump for it but it's at £32.99 pre-owned! What're you going to do? The Publisher just lost significant margin, which in turn means less money to Developer's. The game store however, made out like a bandit.

 

[lord.jeff]

The simple answer is Steam.

 

[dystopiaINC]

There's a used market for everything.

Why should games be any different?

It is really only in books that we find a similar comparison and we find that books have faced the very same problem. While they do degrade, the process is relatively slow. In the case of a well made hardbound book that is well taken care of, it might take centuries or even millenia before it is wholly devoid of value. What's worse, the second hand market in this case includes a resource that asks next to nothing of its customers and offers the opportunity to check out nearly unlimited books. But, like video games, a great many writers and publishers have decried the used market and the library as great evils working against their industry. The unfortunate thing is that they have no real option to combat it.

i agree wit you about the library with books, but i just want to add, lately every time i buy a book it's one i've already read, see the y book series i read only come out on hard cover, and take about a year to come out in paperback, i can"t buy the hard cover because all the other volumes in the series that i own are paperback dude to me starting the sires later and the hardcovers for the first few books are difficult to find. so i tend to read the book when it comes out with the library and then buy it a year later when it's out in paperback.

 

[Fleeker]

I rarely buy used games. I typically buy games for $20 bucks (and if the have a UC or CC edition with all extras and DLC I get those). Its about value to me. I want something I will enjoy that is not to expensive and I'm not crazy about getting used games because not everyone takes care of there games, boxes, and instructions like I do.

That is the way around this idea.



Used games I think are good for the industry if people are stilling buying mostly new. I say this because its about exposure to the industry and products. If you by Dragon Age Origins Ultimate Collection used you might be more willing to buy Dragon Age 2 and its DLC or even the Mass Effect series....this means more exposure and possibly more money down the road.

 

[Xaryn Mar]

Used games are completely different then almost any other used market. When you buy a used sofa, you pay less money because it will most likely be in a lesser condition then purchased new. Games don't work that way, buying a game used means you get the same amount of content as someone who bought it new.

To you and every one else with the "used games will not deteriorate" Used games do deteriorate in the following ways (and others less important ones for this discussion): The disc can only exist for a certain time before data loss will occur (10-20 years for a cd-rom) and it can be scratched.
This means that a used game will have a greater risk of not working correctly if even at all. This is just the same risks as any other used medium have and therefore used games should sell cheaper than new ones.
Content may be the same but that is also the case with books (unless the lack pages), films and music.

 

[veloper]

It's mostly bad for yourself.
Buying used in game shops is like piracy that you have to pay for.

You either support the people who make those games for you, or you don't. If you don't, the how doesn't matter to anyone but you.

No ! it's not like piracy, buying the game second handed is a totally legitimate way for buying a game, piracy is basically theft.

No, it isn't theft, because nobody else has something missing.

It's simple logic: whether you don't play at all, or play and pirate; the effect on the industry is the same: no money is made. And if you do pirate, nobody even has to know.

Only buying an unused copy makes a difference to anyone in the game industry. Between the other alternatives, there is no difference that matters.

There is the legality of the matter, but copying games in the privacy of your home doesn't interest the police and rightly so. There exist important matters.

4 options:

1. You can be a useful fool like me and buy games first hand; join an altruistic minority that carries the entire game industry on their backs for everyone else to enjoy.

2. You can be both clueless and useless, while wasting your money in used game shops.

3. You can pirate like a smart kid would. Doesn't contribute, but no harm done either. That's how almost all gamers start, even the first type.

4. You can trade games directly with other gamers, which is both legal and smart, but that usually means doing some of 1 or 2 aswell.

Think about this though. For a used sale to exist, a sale would have first been made. Then, say, Gamestop bought it back. The person often puts it towards a new game, as I mentioned in my above post. We can argue about the affects of Piracy (I hate it, personally), but I argue that used games have a net positive on the industry due to all the money flowing around.

All the profit Gamestop makes, is money that the customer cannot spend on games, so NO.

There often won't even be a 1:1 new sale for a used sale. Used games can go through Gamestop for several iterations.
The customers then typically buy a used game for the games they trade in, while putting in more of their own money.

There is no positive effect for the publishers and develoipers. Follow the money: it goes to Gamestop.

I never said always. However, as I posted with ACTUAL numbers, it often does

According to Gamestop's annual report for fiscal 2010, and the president of Gamestop, they purchased over $1 billion in used products from gamers, $750 million of which was used on new product in the same visit. Extrapolate those numbers across the entire retail space, and you're looking at at least $1 billion dollars the used market injects directly into the new market. That's $1 billion dollars gamers got to spend on new games that they didn't previously have. Now imagine all those extra customers buying DLC.

So used games have no positive effect? At all? I think this shows that this isn't the case.

You post some numbers, but you don't realise they prove the opposite of what you claim.

Firstly, it only says they puchased over 1 billion, but it doesn't say for how much they sold those same 2nd hand games. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that number is much higher. 5 billion is a reasonable guess considering they sell for 10 times as much, as that they give you.

They gave 1 billion. They took 5 billion.

Oh no! They are a business! They made money! Quick, call the Justice League! Batman will stop them!

Joking aside, I think I get what you are saying. I just diagree with the "demonize Gamestop" line of thought. If someone makes money legally, I'm all in favor of it. And that's all they are doing. They are helping to create sales that would not have existed in the first place.

Also, we are throwing around hypothetical dollars for sales that might not have existed in the first place

It's may not a crime to dupe fools, but you're still a fool if you do business with them.

Gamestop don't create sales. Someone who will buy a used game for $55, will also buy a new game for $60, if the used option is taken away. He'll buy 9 games out of 10, out of the same budget.

And then what do you do with used games that are no longer in production? Not all companies have a large of a selection for their downloadable retro games.

Ebay? Piracy? Take your pick.

Ebay: Yeah, $7 for Eternal Darkness at Gamestop is a better deal than what Ebay was offering at the time.
Piracy: Gamecube emulators are crap, and the roms are rare.

And that's just another sympton of gamers becoming clueless.

Nolonger the social skills to get in contact with other gamers and haggle over prices, nor the technical skills. There exists piracy on every console. Second hand sales should be less than 50% of the market value new.
There are ways if you know them.

 

[ManInRed]

Is the second hand market really that problematic?

It is an issue that hurts the people developing the game most, and nothing said on this form should ever excuse the guilt of acquiring a game without the artists behind it getting paid.

So why is it a big deal now? Well, used to be 'renting-games' was the big villains the industry worried about. The formation of certain companies to gain a monopoly on the user game market is also fairly recent -so not only are they losing money, its all going to this other guy that spent no work developing the games. Games have also gotten a lot more expensive to make, which makes losing profit on game sales a bigger deal than it may have once been. Games aren't like Music, the cost of producing is so high that margin of profit for the developers is a lot smaller. Most of the security against used games is actually trying to target piracy, which is easier than ever.

Basically, a lot of factors have made this more evident that it used to be. And while it's true buying old games is harder than ever before and the used game market does help market buying other games in many ways that helps the industry in ways the industry has not provide a suitable method for, your still stealing form the artist to give the middle man more profit if you buy a used game. It's not illegal, it's just exploitative, and a contentious consumer has to decide if they think that is right when making a purchase.

If you think it's wrong to buy a game without the developers getting paid for their work, and you buy a used game, then your doing something you think is wrong. Other than having no other way to acquire the game, there is no reason you can give that won't sound like an excuse. "I did something I knew was wrong, please help convince me otherwise." I can offer you forgiveness, but not assistance in your denial.

 

[The Lost Big Boss]

Used games are completely different then almost any other used market. When you buy a used sofa, you pay less money because it will most likely be in a lesser condition then purchased new. Games don't work that way, buying a game used means you get the same amount of content as someone who bought it new.

To you and every one else with the "used games will not deteriorate" Used games do deteriorate in the following ways (and others less important ones for this discussion): The disc can only exist for a certain time before data loss will occur (10-20 years for a cd-rom) and it can be scratched.
This means that a used game will have a greater risk of not working correctly if even at all. This is just the same risks as any other used medium have and therefore used games should sell cheaper than new ones.
Content may be the same but that is also the case with books (unless the lack pages), films and music.

That isn't even the issue. In ten years the game won't even be in circulation, the developer would have stopped making money. The issue with used game sales is when used games sell when the new game is right next to it on the shelf, with a five dollar mark down. By the time used movies and music are being sold and bought, there are so few new ones out in the market to find.