Is there a reason I haven't seen any women players in professional sports?

[Something Amyss]

That is some rank bullshit too. Damn near everybody in the Olympic Village is a genetic freak of some kind. Comes with the territory of being the best.

Yeah, it's sort of weird how we become suddenly concerned with "fairness" in very narrow, very specific circumstances.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

There's significantly more overlap than sexists like to admit when you move inward from the outliers.

Most human traits when compared by gender are mostly overlapping bell curves, often either with a similar distribution but noticeably different mean (such as height and upper body strength) or a similar mean but noticeably different variance, or both. Pointing this out is of course extremely sexist, especially if you suggest that in choosing persons for a certain task you might optimize for certain traits, and if you're able to be picky enough to be able target people far from the mean at some desirable traits...then you'll just fire James Damore again before I finish repeating the argument that got him fired from Google.

You're damn right I would. Dude released his (dubiously) "scientifically accurate" manifesto pissing off plenty of his female coworkers arguing how it's actually just math that means the ladies at google get paid less than the dudes when my company was in the middle of being investigated by the federal government for gendered pay discrimination. Even on the off-chance he was entirely accurate, he wouldn't have hurt that case worse than if he'd walked up to my head lawyer and shot them in the chest.

 

[Schadrach]

You're damn right I would. Dude released his (dubiously) "scientifically accurate" manifesto pissing off plenty of his female coworkers arguing how it's actually just math that means the ladies at google get paid less than the dudes when my company was in the middle of being investigated by the federal government for gendered pay discrimination. Even on the off-chance he was entirely accurate, he wouldn't have hurt that case worse than if he'd walked up to my head lawyer and shot them in the chest.

Except he never said anything about paying ladies less than dudes for the same job - rather the "unfortunate" part he talked about was how it was likely that due to statistical trait differences you were unlikely to fill half of high end tech positions with women without actively discriminating against men or changing the nature of the positions themselves. That Google was discriminating expressly to improve their gender ratio (and still wasn't reaching an even split, despite tipping the odds to benefit women) suggests that the pool of appropriate talent probably isn't an even split gender wise, either.

Essentially what we're talking about here -- there is, presumably a set of traits that is desirable to Google. If you're able to be very picky (which Google can), you're going to look to get people who are as optimal as possible, and the distribution of people high in those traits is unlikely to match the distribution of the general population.

 

[McElroy]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

Getting rid of men's and women's competitions or doping regulations would mean the end of professional sports as we know it (and the fallout from that would have plenty of consequences as well). Luckily there is little need to care about those opinions. However, individual sports should get called out whenever there is bullshit involved.

Like, in ski-jumping there is a stupid focus on the jump-suits nowadays. And snowboarding has been ruined with the air-filled safety mattresses which allow boarders to try out whatever stupid trick without injuring themselves -- the catch is that one costs a shitload of money. And in women's gymnastics it can only be a coincidence that the most talented 12-year-old just suddenly had the shortest puberty ever, gaining very little height or womanly shapes but started accumulating all of that muscle with just chicken and rice? Sure.

 

[Saelune]

People who complain about transwomen in womens sports just want to hate on trans people and don't actually give a fuck about women or women's sports.

 

[Baffle]

People who complain about transwomen in womens sports just want to hate on trans people and don't actually give a fuck about women or women's sports.

You aren't wrong. You see the same thing when people are talking about Syrian refugees (in this case): people suddenly care about the homeless situation when a Syrian family is given shelter, when there's been a mysterious lack of concern previously.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

But...why?
What, specifically, about Semenya's purely natural advantages was threatening the integrity of women's sport in the Olympics?

 

[Something Amyss]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

But...why?
What, specifically, about Semenya's purely natural advantages was threatening the integrity of women's sport in the Olympics?

And why are we suddenly concerned with integrity in this case?

 

[McElroy]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

But...why?
What, specifically, about Semenya's purely natural advantages was threatening the integrity of women's sport in the Olympics?

People decided that a woman with congenital hyperandrogenism dominating the sport undermines the whole thing. Arbitrary and unfair to Semenya, but too bad. Arguing about her natural testosterone levels is an endless cycle that had to be stopped preferably before Semenya retires, taking the issue with her.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I do recall a female Australian surfer competing in male events because there weren't any for female surfers.

You aren't wrong. You see the same thing when people are talking about Syrian refugees (in this case): people suddenly care about the homeless situation when a Syrian family is given shelter, when there's been a mysterious lack of concern previously.

Or people who suddenly care about LGBT people when it allows them to condemn Islam, or who care about male rape victims when it allows them to dismiss female rape victims. Or, hell, pretending to care about child abuse if you can run a scare campaign about LGBT people in schools, whilst being a leader of the Catholic church.

 

[votemarvel]

But what if a woman was able to hold her own?

It's not just a matter of physicality but of mindset.

Back when I was in school we'd play football, soccer for you US folk, and it was quite a physical game. The same with rugby, we wouldn't give a thought about giving our all into a challenge.

Then there were the lessons where we'd have to play with the girls and no guy on the field would give their all into a tackle or challenge. It is very difficult on a sports pitch to break the 'you don't hit girls' mindset.

I can't imagine that mindset would be any easier to break at a professional level.

 

[CaitSeith]

Such baity OP belongs to the R&P forums.

 

[Something Amyss]

Or people who suddenly care about LGBT people when it allows them to condemn Islam, or who care about male rape victims when it allows them to dismiss female rape victims. Or, hell, pretending to care about child abuse if you can run a scare campaign about LGBT people in schools, whilst being a leader of the Catholic church.

Some days, I just wish I could "thumbs up" a post.

Then there were the lessons where we'd have to play with the girls and no guy on the field would give their all into a tackle or challenge. It is very difficult on a sports pitch to break the 'you don't hit girls' mindset.

Weird. In my school, guys had no problem hitting girls in football. Or soccer. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to see guys hitting women in basketball.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

But...why?
What, specifically, about Semenya's purely natural advantages was threatening the integrity of women's sport in the Olympics?

People decided that a woman with congenital hyperandrogenism dominating the sport undermines the whole thing. Arbitrary and unfair to Semenya, but too bad. Arguing about her natural testosterone levels is an endless cycle that had to be stopped preferably before Semenya retires, taking the issue with her.

No, see: why did "people" have to decide that? Out of all of the dominant athletes in the Olympics, why the focus on this specific advantage? Segments being medal-good at one specific race (800m) is so dominant that they needed a ruling to prevent theoretical competition in the future from access the full range of their natural talents, but somebody like Micheal Phelps (has more gold medals himself than the next two highest combined) doesn't merit any special rules?

Why is this "issue" an endless cycle that needed to be stopped, and needed to be stopped while she was still competing? How is "congenital hyperandrogenism" dominating the sport when Semenya is only dominant in a single event?

It's racist targeted bullshit. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/trackandfield/caster-semenya-cultural-bias-1.4661929

 

[McElroy]

snip

The only ruling fair towards everyone would be to let women compete with the androgen levels Semenya has, but it's also a shit option nobody wants to take. Thus the unfairness is dumped on Semenya.

Phelps has nothing to do with the IAAF, who are calling the shots here. Swimming is kinda busted, though.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Such a nice, baity thread for people who don't seem to get sports that much.

Semenya's case is of course unfair to her specifically, but something they had to do in order to maintain integrity.

But...why?
What, specifically, about Semenya's purely natural advantages was threatening the integrity of women's sport in the Olympics?

And why are we suddenly concerned with integrity in this case?

It just bugs me that they'll say "Oh looks like you were born with hormones that give you an advantage, so we'll have to do something about that" in this case but won't, I dunno, going for a random example, say to Phelps "Oh well it looks like you were born with a naturally larger lung capacity that gives you an advantage so we'll fill them full of rocks a little bit to cancel that out"

 

[McElroy]

It just bugs me that they'll say "Oh looks like you were born with hormones that give you an advantage, so we'll have to do something about that" in this case but won't, I dunno, going for a random example, say to Phelps "Oh well it looks like you were born with a naturally larger lung capacity that gives you an advantage so we'll fill them full of rocks a little bit to cancel that out"

Unless Phelps starts training for steeplechase or discus throw, the IAAF has no say in the way he or any other swimmer competes.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

It just bugs me that they'll say "Oh looks like you were born with hormones that give you an advantage, so we'll have to do something about that" in this case but won't, I dunno, going for a random example, say to Phelps "Oh well it looks like you were born with a naturally larger lung capacity that gives you an advantage so we'll fill them full of rocks a little bit to cancel that out"

Unless Phelps starts training for steeplechase or discus throw, the IAAF has no say in the way he or any other swimmer competes.

...okay? Not sure how that addresses what I was saying about different in-built born-with-them-advantages being treated differently but you do you

 

[Saelune]

Until steroids is thoroughly removed from sports, people can shut up about trans people in sports.

 

[McElroy]

It just bugs me that they'll say "Oh looks like you were born with hormones that give you an advantage, so we'll have to do something about that" in this case but won't, I dunno, going for a random example, say to Phelps "Oh well it looks like you were born with a naturally larger lung capacity that gives you an advantage so we'll fill them full of rocks a little bit to cancel that out"

Unless Phelps starts training for steeplechase or discus throw, the IAAF has no say in the way he or any other swimmer competes.

...okay? Not sure how that addresses what I was saying about different in-built born-with-them-advantages being treated differently but you do you

It matters a lot in this case. The IAAF can make rules for mid-distance runners while it's the FINA making any rules for Phelps and other swimmers.

Unless, of course, you meant in some general sense. In that case I would personally say that the reason for Semenya's natural advantage is too clear (the advantage itself is not so clear) and easy to replicate: just give everyone some androgen shots and it's a level competing field again. But that's not on the table - making doping the default isn't going to happen.

800 metres has seen similar domination before by Maria Mutola, and so I wouldn't boil it down to the athletes being crybabies but rather an issue of image. Sure it could be said it's pathetic that one Caster Semenya is too much.