Is this Legal/Ethical?

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GenericAmerican

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Dec 27, 2009
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Now he misses two years worth of driving; meaning when he is eighteen and needs to be on his own. He probably wont even remember how to drive.

Was he by his self? Until I get off my lazy ass and get my actual license I can't drive without a license holder over 21 in the passenger seat.

Also, curfew. Ha! I laugh because that sounds like it sucks.
 

TWRule

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Dec 3, 2010
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yamitami said:
Here is the thing: if the law is in the books then the cops have to follow it. It would be unethical for a cop to not follow the law even if they consider the law unfair. The people you need to be talking to/about is the lawmakers, not the people who enforce it.
This is an example of the correct definition of the ethical. (It is not completely relative as some of you think, you're confusing it with morality - different things.)

The police officer signs on to the force with an understanding that this means he is responsible for upholding the law, as written. If a law allows for officer discretion, as may have been there case in this scenario, it doesn't necessarily matter (ethically) what choice the officer made so long as it was in line with the law, and he followed through/took responsibility for that choice. If it is the case that the officer broke the law somehow, then it would be unethical. Even the choice to follow that person when he could have done other things is simply a choice in which he is allowed personal discretion - the system affords him that freedom to choose, so he is not in conflict with it.

Was it immoral? Depends on who you ask. There really isn't a single set morality these days to judge by, and the law is the closest tool we have to reflect democratic morality (even though it may not serve that purpose in all cases). So, you can think what the cop did was immoral in a broader perspective, but that doesn't mean it was unethical necessarily.
 

HK_01

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Jun 1, 2009
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I guess it's technically legal and whatnot, but it's in no way ethical (and just makes you a douchebag) and you really have to question if there's nothing better for the cops to do than tail someone in hopes that they arrive after curfew.
 

Death God

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Jul 6, 2010
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The cop was right but I don't necessarily agree on cops following people to their homes to ticket them. It actually really irks me if I see a cop following someone all the way to their house when they could have (and should have) just ticketed them on the spot.
 

TheMadTypist

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Sep 8, 2009
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Legal, arguably. A halfway decent lawyer could fight this case and win it, especially in a juvenile court- especially if the cop was tailing him for more than those three minutes past midnight, and the minor could prove it.

Ethically, there are several viewpoints to examine, and I'll be drawing my arguments from "The Elements of Moral Philosophy" (by James Rachels and Stuart Rachels, it's this tiny book I needed for the ethics class I took this past semester) if you want to read up more on these viewpoints.

By Ethical Egoism, the officer was simply acting in his best interest, to bolster his numbers, and was therefore doing nothing wrong. Ethical Egoism states each person ought to pursue his or her own self interest exclusively.

The Social Contract theory, on the other hand, believes that morality consists of the set of rules, governing behavior, that rational people will accept, on the condition that others accept them as well. Whether the officer was acting ethically in this case depends mostly on the individual's viewpoint as to whether they'd like everyone to act like the officer.

Utilitarianism, on which a small part of my personal philosophy is based, states that the action that creates the most happiness, or, depending on your interpenetration, the most good (however you define good), is the moral action. In this case, the minor getting home three minutes too late caused no harm (or, view dependent, unhappiness) whereas the officer caused significant unhappiness (or harm).

The Categorical Imperative, as stated by Kant, is thus: "Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that is should become universal law." Being a moral individual then would require guiding one's conduct by universal laws. By Kant's view, to allow this one minor off for his crime would require all minors be let off for violating curfew, and would therefore be wrong. Kant was very up on these universal, no exception kind of moral laws.

There is also the ethics of virtue, by which we become moral by following various traits in our habitual actions, which may or may not apply here. This can really go either way and we're not given enough information to know whether either party was acting virtuously.

My own views would indicate that: The minor was attempting, to the best of his ability, to comply with the law. Had he been arriving anywhere other than his home, the officer's actions would stand. Secondly, the officer seems to act by the letter of the law but not the spirit- the law is intended to prevent teenagers from getting into trouble at night, whereas punishing the minor for being out three minutes too late, when the intent of the minor was to go home, is not what the law was intended to do. Thirdly, actions of this sort undercut the authority of the general police force- how can you expect the people to trust and rely on you when you take such action for such petty "crimes"? Lastly, I believe the officer should have shown some discretion here, because the law, to my mind, is not a solid wall but a flexible and dynamic force used to enforce the public good- indeed, any manner of governing humans should not be considered a universal, no exception restriction, simply because that is not realistic when you consider how the very nature of humanity is constantly shifting and changing.

TL;DR Punishing an individual for two years for being three minutes late does not support the public good, and therefore is not a moral action, at least to my opinion.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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Well... its legal.

As to ethical. hm... mmm, maybe not? Sounds a lot like profiling to me, whihc is supposed to be illegal. Or at least not right to do. ANd yeah, thats abit anal of the cop to do that for a few minutes after.

But to some up. No, its legal. As to unethical... just depends how you look at it.
 

Staskala

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Sep 28, 2010
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Is this really American law?
In Germany you only have to be on your way home after midnight if you are under the age of 18.
I mean, if your bus, train or whatever runs late are you commiting a crime?
If you get caught in a traffic jam (not likely at this time, but let's say there was an accident due to a drunk driver) are you violating the law?

I would try talking with a superior of his, if it's law there isn't much else you can do.
Although your chances of success are rather slim, I'd say.
 

maddawg IAJI

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Feb 12, 2009
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Rules are rules man. While it may suck, he probably should have planned his trip home better and if he did, he wouldn't have had to deal with this. Its a little strict for only 3 minutes, but that's the punishment for breaking that law.
 

FallenJellyDoughnut

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Pirate Kitty said:
Scout Tactical said:
You're doing a pretty crappy job of being a knight templar, considering it's essentially in your job description to follow your methodology, faith, and law blindly and without question. =P
EDIT: I just realized you wern't talking to me at all. I was way in the wrong with my argument here. Very sorry.

Also makes a lot more sense to me now that I know who it was directed at.

No idea why I read that as a quote to me... Anyway, again, I'm very sorry.

FallenJellyDoughnut said:
Talking in lines like this

Isn't helping anyone

And frankly it's stupid

Also, are you the guy who wrote RoboCop's standard procedure?
How constructive.

Perhaps you best read the rules again. I think you will find a section regarding valid contribution to a thread.
Alright Sgt. Friday, I'll take that as a "yes"
Once again: the rules - read them.
You and I should become detectives in LA and solve crimes together.
 

webzu

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Jul 31, 2009
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Pirate Kitty said:
webzu said:
Pirate Kitty said:
zama174 said:
The driver broke the law.

The police officer did nothing wrong.

If you cannot understand that, best we stop the conversation here, least it turn into an argument.
To be honest I agree with you that this was law breaking on the drivers part but the police officer should NOT put 2 years over such a trivial time, more appropriate would be to either give a warning or just suspend for a smaller time (personally 3 min over curfew I would suspend his licence for a maximum of 2 weeks, 5 if this weren't his first time or if he argued a lot about my judgement). 2 years is just so ridiculously long for such a small breach of the law
I agree - two years is insane.

But the driver broke the law and the law dictates two years is an applicable amount of time to be suspended for. The officer enforced said law.

Silly? I think so. Wrong or unethical? Not at all.
Does the law dictate 2 years of no driving for breaking curfew? Wow... I'm lucky I live in Iceland, no curfew save "be home by midnight if your younger than 16, failure to obey will result in police officer giving you a lift home" and most cops cba.
 

Nouw

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Mar 18, 2009
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The law is stupid, it should really differ on how much time has past the curfew (wtf?)

3 Minutes and 2 Years? Make that at most half a year, a very dick move by the cop. And all the while someone dies because of drunk driving...
 

Aphroditty

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Nov 25, 2009
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Jackhorse said:
The law is wrong.

Why is the law there? Perhaps to protect people, perhaps to keep order? Generally for the protection of the common interests. This lad did not pose a threat to anyone, driving is driving like eggs are eggs no matter the time of day. There was no threat to the peace, people wern't going to uprise and topple the those in charge over youths being allowed out after 12, social order could be maintained while allowing a young person to find their way home. No one benefits from this.

I live in England so I naturally think this whole curfew thing idiotic, ageist and a breach of all those concepts of liberty and justice for all which you cling to so blindly. :)
Clearly we're not clinging to them in any fashion, blindly or otherwise. In fact, it seems like you're the one who's clinging to them, spouting about ageism and idiocy. Every nation on Earth already has laws restricting who can drive. Do you accept those? Do you think there should be no law, and near-blind and the mentally infirm should be allowed to drive? I am willing to bet that you don't, so you accept some limitations. But perhaps curfew is different.

Continuing the examination, there are also laws that restrict how those allowed to drive can drive. Do you reject speed limits, headlights at night, and a ban on drunken driving? I'm willing to bet that you agree with at least one of those for reasons of safety. If you do, then it is logically consequent that a sector of the population which already has restricted rights (no voting, no porn, no alcohol, no smoking), which are largely put in place for their own good (whether or not they actually are for their own good is another question entirely), and for the protection of society, may indeed have their rights restricted when it comes to an activity which definitely can pose a tremendous threat to others, and when teenagers are demonstrably more likely to end up in traffic collisions, and when their already-questionable driving abilities are further compromised by fatigue. The most common cause of death for teenagers (in the United States, I must mention) is traffic collisions, and that's with most of them not being out past midnight.

Moving along to the OP, in this case the ticketing is almost certainly legal. I can honestly say that it appears unethical, however--a police officer trailing an individual that he suspects could be under-aged but is not doing anything that could cause harm to the public, a minute or so after curfew, is a waste of resources. It's adhering to the letter of the law, but contravening its spirit (the spirit of the law, rather than the text, is where any ethical content is to be found). However, maybe there was nothing else the police officer could do at the moment. And perhaps this individual had a history of breaking curfew and a few warnings. But if he didn't, then the officer banning him from driving for two years is definitely petty and mean-spirited.

Sadly, it doesn't seem likely to be illegal. More than that, the law itself is not unethical, merely one action taken under it in and admittedly-gray area (although it should be noted that a good law does not need to be ethical, but it must not be unethical).
 

GameGoddess101

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Jun 11, 2009
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Up in Maine, where I live, this would actually be illegal. According to Maine state law, a police officer can not arrest you, fine you, or ticket you on your own property without a warrant of some kind. (Then again, here you can shoot someone, completely legally, for coming into your house uninvited. True story.)

However, while this is technically legal (in your parts), and the ethical nature is subjective, it was a pretty dick move. 3 minutes can be argued to accuracy of clocks. However, it is the officer's right to practice discretion. Plus, we don't really have all the context to make a judgement. Where was your friend? Do cops have any reason to suspect him of wrong-doing and misbehavior?

Personally, if I was your friend, I'd challenge it, as the punishment REALLY should fit the crime...
 

Jackhorse

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Jul 4, 2010
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Ahlycks said:
Jackhorse said:
Why are police trying to avoid being noticed? Surely the aim should be to prevent crime if possible rather then just catch in the act, if a cop could catch a mugger or stop the mugging happening in the first place surely he should try for the latter? The law shouldn't be against criminals it should be for the people.
thats to make people not know if they are being watched or not so, in theory, they will ALWAYS follow the law because they do not know if they will get caught.
Ah good the old Gestapo/Big Brother/police state trick ;)
That'll keep those pesky civilians in line knowing that they're every action is being watched through a cold unfeeling CCTV lense. If they do not think in this way its plusungood because the crime will still be committed by the desensitised public, so used to the surveillance that it doesn't occur to them as they maliciously drive home.

If it works the people live in fear if it doesn't then no crime is prevented.