Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Combustion Kevin]

when "nice" is the only word you can use to judge a person, you simply don't know them at all.

 

[wulf3n]

While those are all nice things to do for someone, they shouldn't be treated as a means to guarantee a romantic payoff. If you're doing a good deed on the belief you'll be rewarded, you're not doing a good deed.

It's interesting because I agree with what you're saying, until I word it differently.

Doing a good deed to guarantee a romantic payoff - bad.
Doing a good deed to show you care for them greatly with the hope they may someday reciprocate those feelings - good.

The key thing here is treating the relationship as a reward as opposed to simply a desired state.

While I can't refute the existence of those who feel like they are owed something for being nice [I've yet to actually encounter someone like that though], I think most "nice guys" are trying to achieve that result but that doesn't mean they feel entitled to it.

 

[omega 616]

Uh... you're kind of making the mistake that the `nice guys` make.
Which is dividing all men into `passive and nice` and `only in it for sex and jerks`.
Men do not all fit neatly into those categories.
And also, usually these women are going for people they are interested in- what's wrong with that, exactly? (Without resorting to the two-category generalisation).

And you're making the argument all men are jerks. You ever heard proper locker room talk? I've heard it so bad that women lose gender, "I'd fuck the shit outta that" not her but that ... "I don't like to share my toys but I'll you play with it when I am done" ... "I'm only fucking her 'cos shes gunna be a model and when shes famous I wanna say "I fucked that!"".

There are nice guys out there but they get looked over 'cos they are seen to be devious after just sex, than a guy who just doesn't know how to get a relationship. The jerks who talk like I just described get the girls 'cos they are up front about just wanting sex.

Nothing wrong with going after who you're interested in, I'm all for that but time and time again you see the "nice guy" getting nothing and the jerk getting the girl ... it is a trope for a reason.

How about not dating your type? Take a chance on a creepy nice guy, you might be surprised.

 

[EyeReaper]

Yeah, I think the problem here isn't guys who are nice, but guys who flaunt their "nice-ness" because it will help them get women or something.
Opening a door for a lady, or loaning them cash is a nice thing to do, however, doing that while saying "Ohh look at how nice I am! If there was a Nice-olympics, I would generously refuse the gold medal because I am so nice. If only the people I am being nice to would give me sex."

What would really be unfortunate is if people who are just nice in general start getting slandered by "Nice guy" accusations, which I can only assume you should counteract by being an asshole. Which, according to stereotypes, will probably be just as likely to get you the girl as slaying a dragon, or putting up the Nice guy routine.

 

[Phasmal]

And you're making the argument all men are jerks. You ever heard proper locker room talk? I've heard it so bad that women lose gender, "I'd fuck the shit outta that" not her but that ... "I don't like to share my toys but I'll you play with it when I am done" ... "I'm only fucking her 'cos shes gunna be a model and when shes famous I wanna say "I fucked that!"".

Am I? Amazing how I could make that argument without typing anything like that.

I'm arguing guys aren't one-dimensional stereotypes, and are- you know- people.
Maybe YOU just see a lot of jerks, but there is a whole rainbow of jerk to non-jerk

There are nice guys out there but they get looked over 'cos they are seen to be devious after just sex, than a guy who just doesn't know how to get a relationship. The jerks who talk like I just described get the girls 'cos they are up front about just wanting sex.

Maybe those girls just want sex too?
I dunno, live and let live?

Nothing wrong with going after who you're interested in, I'm all for that but time and time again you see the "nice guy" getting nothing and the jerk getting the girl ... it is a trope for a reason.

How about not dating your type? Take a chance on a creepy nice guy, you might be surprised.

No thank you. I am not gonna pity date a guy I find creepy `just in case`, that would be insulting to both me and him.
Not to mention I'm in a relationship. I think I'll keep my jerk (I'm assuming my boyfriend comes under `jerk`, cause he straight up asked me out).
Ah well.
He's a nice jerk.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

Speaking as someone who used to think of himself as a "nice guy," the stereotype has basis in reality and is reasonable.

The way it's used, it's nothing but weaponized guilt. It's a flacid dagger used by mewling little boys to try and guilt a woman into their arms because they're entitled little shits who think so highly of themselves that the very idea that they would treat another human being with kindness is some blessing from God, their Ego. It's the pitiful last bastion of selfish, needy manchildren with nothing to offer but angry, frustrated fantasies.

"Nice guys" are the absolute worse. They're delusional, egotistical sycophants with one hand up a weeping girl's skirt while the other brushes her hair telling her it will be alright; all the other guys are just jerks and she only needs him.

Yeah... this sounds horribly familiar.

I used to be one of these... I'd like to think I've got rid of most of the "nice guy" issues that I used to have. If any of them come back, I try and recognise it so that I don't come off as a self-entitled creep.

The "nothing to offer" bit is important. In the end, people - men AND women - like other people who have something to offer them. I think the "nice guys" of the stereotype kinda get this, but they twist it into some sense of entitlement. It's the difference between offering something of yourself willingly, or treating life as a "balance sheet" where you expect everything "nice" you do to be reciprocated. The latter can come across as horribly manipulative - which of course is exactly what they are, although (and I'm speaking from experience here) it can take a serious kick up the butt to get them to recognise it.

 

[wulf3n]

No thank you. I am not gonna pity date a guy I find creepy `just in case`, that would be insulting to both me and him.
Not to mention I'm in a relationship.

The problem here is that you find a guy "creepy" just because the only way he knows how to show that he's interested is by being nice. That's insulting.

 

[the December King]

Yeah, my nice guy wanted that with me too.

He just didn't care that I did not want that with him, and therein lies the problem. The reaction many of these people give after they realise you are not going to transform into their manic pixie dreamgirlfriend.

Sorry to hear that you lost a good friend. If you don't mind my asking, was he a nice guy who wanted more from you, or a 'nice guy' who expected more? Because if he wanted more, if he had feelings for you that you didn't have for him, then it would be really hard to be near someone that special to someone who doesn't feel the same way. He'd have to shut that part of him(or her)self off, or walk away from you. But I certainly wouldn't blame you for not having the same feelings back! You like who you like. It wasn't your fault.

I'm sorry, I know you don't need someone on the internets harping on your past. If anything I'm trying to see this from the other side, as I was once in the role of the 'nice guy'. I was also once the focus of a similar attention... but I was oblivious, till long after that person leaving my life.

 

[omega 616]

snip

People are stereotypes in one way or another.

Yeah, he probably isn't going to care if you're pity dating him ... he found what he thinks to be his perfect woman and if you did pity date him, he wouldn't be complaining.

See be the straight up guy and get a girl, be the shy type and you're seen as a pity date.

(okay, to make this a little more grey. There is obviously more than jerk or nice guy and not everybody who straight up asks a girl out is a jerk ... just making the argument easier)

 

[Phasmal]

No thank you. I am not gonna pity date a guy I find creepy `just in case`, that would be insulting to both me and him.
Not to mention I'm in a relationship.

The problem here is that you find a guy "creepy" just because the only way he knows how to show that he's interested is by being nice. That's insulting.

Yeah. My boyfriend impressed me by headbutting kittens.
Ok seriously now- I never said that, did I?
I'm talking about the stereotypical `nice guy` and all the issues that come with it, not guys who happen to be decent freaking humans.

Yeah, my nice guy wanted that with me too.

He just didn't care that I did not want that with him, and therein lies the problem. The reaction many of these people give after they realise you are not going to transform into their manic pixie dreamgirlfriend.

Sorry to hear that you lost a good friend. If you don't mind my asking, was he a nice guy who wanted more from you, or a 'nice guy' who expected more? Because if he wanted more, if he had feelings for you that you didn't have for him, then it would be really hard to be near someone that special to someone who doesn't feel the same way. He'd have to shut that part of him(or her)self off, or walk away from you. But I certainly wouldn't blame you for not having the same feelings back! You like who you like. It wasn't your fault.

I'm sorry, I know you don't need someone on the internets harping on your past. If anything I'm trying to see this from the other side, as I was once in the role of the 'nice guy'. I was also once the focus of a similar attention... but I was oblivious, till long after that person leaving my life.

At first I just felt bad because I did not like him that way, and I would have understood him needing some space from me if that was the case. I'd just moved to a place 500 miles away from home and he'd been a good friend for years and now was the only friend close to me. But then as soon as he realised that I wouldn't be interested in dating him, things got a bit ugly, he tried to recruit my parents into convincing me to date him, tried to make me `jealous`, wouldn't even talk to me- and everyone kept telling me to give him a chance even though I was not into him at all like that. It's a shame, really.

 

[KisaiTenshi]

So I've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/11083-The-History-And-Abuse-of-The-Fedora], which for the most part seemed interesting and believable enough.

However, one particular statement confused me, and I suppose it is something that somewhat relates to previous discussions on this subforum.

Women have largely pegged this uniform as belonging to the so-called "nice guys" that think being decent to a woman is a ticket into her bed. I'm sorry about that, but it's true. (For what it's worth, I asked two women outside the gaming community what kind of men they associate black fedoras with. Answer: Creep, avoid immediately.)

Most of the people in this thread have already stated it, but it bears repeating

"I am a nice guy" - yeah, so what, that's a basic standard of humanity everyone should have, and many Anons lack.

This point gets pressed more since the advent of MRA's who feel hellbent on keeping patriarchal institutions intact, even at their own expense. So the Trilby (which many think is a Fedora) is associated with creepy dudebros who think they are entitled to have any woman of their choosing by merely being "nice guys". Somewhere along the line PUA's and MRA's became united in the cause of this fantasy entitlement.

Let's be honest,

The worst "high standards" I know of, are people who completely bought into some fiction they saw on TV ("oh yeah, I want a sexy exotic foreigner with a cool accent") and forget about the cultural and language barriers such a relationship entails. If your idea of the perfect mate is someone who is *better than you*, your standards are way too high, keep dreaming.

So yes "a nice guy" is someone who is marketing themselves as having no redeeming qualities.

 

[wulf3n]

Ok seriously now- I never said that, did I?

Essentially yes [at least from my inferrence]. My apologies if that wasn't your intention.

I'm talking about the stereotypical `nice guy` and all the issues that come with it, not guys who happen to be decent freaking humans.

So you're talking about the nice guy, not nice guys. This is why things get confusing, as it appears you and Omega are essentially arguing different things.

edit: On further reading it was Omega who brought the creepy adjective to the table. My bad.

 

[DementedSheep]

It not referring to guys who are actually nice. Its referring to guys who throw shallow compliments at you and do "nice" things and then get pissy when you don't date them, complain about their work going to waste or that the girl owes them and act like being friends with a girl is the worst thing ever. Basically self proclaimed "nice guys" who don't understand that relationships are built on more than just compliments and favours and treat being nice as a job to get a girl.

The stereotype also comes from "girls only date assholes" crowd who deluded themselves into thinking they can't get dates because they are "nice" and often spout misogynistic shit while they are complaining about this seemingly not getting how this conflicts.

You certainly do get guys like this though I don't know that it is actually that common outside of highschool. I think most of the time it's just a guy liked a girl, she just didn't feel the same way and he was (understandably) hurt. When people are hurt they tend to say stupid things and make excuses even when the situation was no ones fault. Also it can be hard to stay friends with someone when after that rejection because feelings for someone don't just go away over night. This can be mistakenly interpreted as "he never wanted to be my friend, he just wanted me in bed".

 

[teebeeohh]

people who call themselves nice guys are basically the same as people who feel the need to point how not racist they are before saying something terribly racist.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

For the love of god people none of this is new, it´s been around as long as there have been men and women. People in general are great at rationalizing, we are always the hero of our own story. Unreciprocated love has been around since the dawn of time and most guys have felt its sting and in that situation we are always the nice, charming guy and the other guy is just some stupid jerk. Most people move on and maybe even end up the jerk of someone else´s story. There´s probably very little difference between the the two guys involved other than point of view and that one seems more attractive to the woman. It´s stupid but we all do it and it doesn´t make you some sort of weird dick in hiding it just makes you every guy who has ever lived.

We´re all filled with hypocrisy, we´re totally head over heels for this girl because of her like, personality, man, it has nothing to with her glorious hind-quarters or those milkshakes that´ll knock you dead (it´s weird how many people feel a deep connection with hot women). And of course the difference between the creep and the don juan has nothing to do with their looks, how shallow do you think I am?

We all keep up a bunch of mini-lies to ourselves that help make our lives seem a little less dreary and it doesn´t make you a bad person and if you´re going to pretend that you´re somehow different then you either have simply never been in such a situation or you´re just lying. It´s not like it ends at romance, I have for exampled noticed how I am the best driver in the world and always behave perfectly while everybody else is an idiot. Everybody else have come to the same conclusion.

 

[lacktheknack]

Act like a human and you'll draw people who like you.

That's like telling someone with a mental illness don't be crazy and you'll be fine.

Uh. How is telling someone to behave naturally like that?

Obviously, if you're actually an alien, then "act like a human" isn't too helpful. However, all but the most damaged people will, when they don't try to accentuate their traits, avoid stilted and "Stepford" behaviour.

They might still be naturally inappropriate or obsessive or frightening or other undesirable things, but that's a different topic.

 

[PainInTheAssInternet]

The guys who are just in it for the sex may be jerks, but at least they don't pretend they aren't. You could of course try not being a nice guy but instead being a GOOD guy and just helping someone because they're your friend.

That is the bit I was describing in my first post, it's not they are "treating their interactions with a woman as a guaranteed romantic relationship regardless of the other person's feelings solely because they treat them with decency" ... it's more about "isn't this what is meant to be boy friend material?" it isn't some sordid, deceitful, underhanded thinking behind it. It's trying to aspire to be the perfect boy friend so the girl will ask the guy out 'cos he is scared of being laughed at/doesn't know how/whatever.

It can indeed be the case that they are moulding themselves, but it can certainly be the case that they are the kind of person this topic is concerned about. In fact, I can see the motives, methods and reactions becoming intertwined.

You might have a point, if it wasn't for the fact you can tell that the guy she will end up going out with is the classic jerk ... will "date" for a couple of months and then when he is bored of her, he will dump her.

That's one hell of an assumption, both on premise and outcome.

You're telling me, you haven't seen a girl/boy at school and been like "wow, (s)he is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with" it might just be a school yard crush but that's not the point.

Indeed it isn't. The point is how the recipient feels and how you would react to that. That's what this topic is about.

There is being nice and being nice, one is pretty obvious that other person is into you and the other is being a friend. It's like hanging out with that friend nobody likes and hanging out with friends you do like.

Might not be obvious, assuming it is might be the source of the problem. Maybe it's the lack of spine that turns them off. Of course, the assumption that they're too nervous because that's what nice people are is kind of problematic.

Not quite sure what you meant by the second half.

The nice guys aren't pretending to be nice and are actually jerks in nice clothing, no fucker is going to pretend to be nice 'cos it doesn't work with the ladies, which is why there is so much bitching about it. Nice guys are not devious jerks, they lack confidence and don't know how else to go about getting a girl friend.

Stop being so cynical and thinking people have hidden agendas, some people might but I bet WAY too many nice guys get tarred with the wrong brush. For a second believe that nice guys are exactly like I state they are, now add on to the fact they can't get a girl with the fact that people like you are making them out to be devious sexual predators.

This seems like a minefield set with past experiences. Like I said, I'm a kind fellow who didn't have too much of an issue getting a girlfriend.

She (or he or etc. No idea what they are) is not casting them as sexual predators. That's an extreme reaction to them to say the least. I'm sure that she doesn't think that kind people are all evil, nor do they have a stance even coming close. After all, she stated that she does have a kind boyfriend. The whole topic was about people acting kind to get into someone's panties.

It's kind of laughable that you think this notion of "nice guys are evil" is so pervasive that it's the root of real-life relationship problems.

To make the logical argument, what kind of person plays "the nice guy" to get sex, when nice guys don't get sex?

Of course, I can only account for my experience, but it's completely the opposite.

I'm a nice guy who's had a girlfriend for over three years now while the jocks/jerks have a lot of trouble keeping anyone. Not to mention that the girls they end up with are the type of women I have no attraction to whatsoever.

The most physically attractive, assertive, intelligent couple I know are also the nicest. Currently living with them in our apartment. They're a genuine joy to hang out with.

There were a few nice couples from my high school that are still going, none of the jocks/jerks have had anything remarkable in the field of romance (I know this because everyone's quite chatty on Facebook). In short, nice guys get laid and get laid well.

If one is having trouble, it could be for a multitude of reasons and nearly every one I can think of is with the person trying to get noticed. On the other hand, if she genuinely isn't interested in nice guys (not self-labelling "nice guys" this topic is about), it's probably a bad idea anyways. Case in point my attempt at a first girlfriend. We kissed and nearly dated. Still friends. Now I hear about all these jerks she keeps on dating and how woe is her. Learned that she's quite dramatic and often is way too much of a handful (high standards, expensive tastes, etc.). Even being her friend is quite exhausting because she knows me well and gets kicks out of getting a rise out of me. I dodged a bullet on that one, as cruel as that sounds.

It's like a rapist who can't rape!

That's?an interesting way of putting it.

EDIT:

Just as I posted, this brilliant one came up.

For the love of god people none of this is new, it´s been around as long as there have been men and women. People in general are great at rationalizing, we are always the hero of our own story. Unreciprocated love has been around since the dawn of time and most guys have felt its sting and in that situation we are always the nice, charming guy and the other guy is just some stupid jerk. Most people move on and maybe even end up the jerk of someone else´s story. There´s probably very little difference between the the two guys involved other than point of view and that one seems more attractive to the woman. It´s stupid but we all do it and it doesn´t make you some sort of weird dick in hiding it just makes you every guy who has ever lived.

We´re all filled with hypocrisy, we´re totally head over heels for this girl because of her like, personality, man, it has nothing to with her glorious hind-quarters or those milkshakes that´ll knock you dead (it´s weird how many people feel a deep connection with hot women). And of course the difference between the creep and the don juan has nothing to do with their looks, how shallow do you think I am?

We all keep up a bunch of mini-lies to ourselves that help make our lives seem a little less dreary and it doesn´t make you a bad person and if you´re going to pretend that you´re somehow different then you either have simply never been in such a situation or you´re just lying. It´s not like it ends at romance, I have for exampled noticed how I am the best driver in the world and always behave perfectly while everybody else is an idiot. Everybody else have come to the same conclusion.

 

[Vegosiux]

Act like a human and you'll draw people who like you.

That's like telling someone with a mental illness don't be crazy and you'll be fine.

Uh. How is telling someone to behave naturally like that?

For a socially anxious person it is natural to behave in a socially anxious way, to be honest. Now, if by "like a human" you mean showing a degree of empathy and regard to other people, that's fine, but again there's many ways to go about that. Some indeed do involve holding doors open and such.

 

[wulf3n]

Uh. How is telling someone to behave naturally like that?

Obviously, if you're actually an alien, then "act like a human" isn't too helpful. However, all but the most damaged people will, when they don't try to accentuate their traits, avoid stilted and "Stepford" behaviour.

They might still be naturally inappropriate or obsessive or frightening or other undesirable things, but that's a different topic.

For a socially anxious person it is natural to behave in a socially anxious way, to be honest.

What he said basically.

People don't act socially awkward by choice, it's usually involuntary. So simply saying, "don't be that" isn't helpful because they either can't or don't know how.