Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Phasmal]

That sucks. Particularly the part where they blamed you. I would ask for details, but I can take an educated guess having dealt with think kinda thing before to one degree or another.

I think too many people buy into the `persistence is romantic! Give him a chance, he's earned it by ignoring all your social signals and continuing to pursue you- just like in the movies!` thing.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

You see it ALL the time in movies and TV, so guys are essentially brought up with this idea that all you have to do is be ridiculously nice and polite and (let's be honest) submissive, and in the end the girl will come to you. It's not necessarily right that guys get angry about when what they've brought up to believe is going to work doesn't, but I understand their frustration.

If you want to mentor young men and teach them that this sort of storyline is fiction, that would be a fine thing. If you want to become a content creator and publish stories with a more nuanced and realistic portrayal of relationships, that would be great. You go for it. But... no one is under an obligation to do any of that. Now you didn't say that they were, I know. But when a woman is getting snarky condescension from a "Nice Guy" who thinks he's entitled to get into her pants, it's a little much to also look down on her for not understanding his frustration.

I know loads of Americans who think that everyone in their military is some flawlessly self-sacrificial brave hero in the peak of physical condition because that's what they see in the movies. I've been around US soldiers stationed in Japan who are cowardly schlubs with enormous egos and beer bellies to match. Someone says something stupid about American soldiers that they got from fiction, I'm not going to patiently sit them down and train them otherwise unless it's of benefit to me, because I got things to do. So I'm going to roll my eyes and think they're dumb.

I never said anything about 'looking down' on a woman for not understanding their frustration, I simply don't think we should look down on a guy who thinks that the way to a woman's heart is to be overly nice, polite, and (to some degree) submissive, when that's what they've been taught for pretty much their entire lives. Understanding someone's frustration doesn't mean you look down on the people who are getting frustrated by them.

As for your US Military thing: 8.5 year Army Veteran, not even touching all of this stuff, though I get where you're going with it.

 

[Vegosiux]

I think too many people buy into the `persistence is romantic! Give him a chance, he's earned it by ignoring all your social signals and continuing to pursue you- just like in the movies!` thing.

Very true. I blame our pop culture for that to a large degree.

I remember a Slovenian movie that's now over 10 years old that seemed rather nice to me on the unconventional ending, "Beneath her window".

It's about a single woman who's involved with a married man, and also has a secret admirer who's stalky at first, but then comes out. Notable, however, is a line she drops on the married guy when they're in a bit of an argument: "No, you don't love me. You love me like you love a nice car or a sunny day, but you don't 'love' me."

She also gets pregnant with him, then throws him out, which he's pissed off about at first, but later on they reconcile and keep seeing each other, although not romantically. He, on the other hand, owns up to his own actions, admits it to his wife (who, according to him "took it rather well"), agrees to offer child support, and works on being a good husband from then on. It's implied he actually does love his wife, though a funny line of "You know, he often goes shopping with her for all afternoon, carrying all those bags for hours and not complaining at all" (by the stalky guy)

As for the stalky guy, once he stops being a stalker and more open, she's not as outraged about him anymore, and actually agrees to go on a quasi-date with him, but there's no romantic implications following that, it's more like "Well, you seem decent enough now, guess we could spend some time together, but don't count on it turning serious." Which he also seems to accept in the end.

It's a bit "make your own ending" I suppose. But my point is, the movie doesn't gloss over what happened, there's no "Happy ending makes the characters forget everything that happened before" illusion. That being an illusion which, I might add, is also a problem; leading people into thinking that "All's well that ends well", which is of course not really in touch with reality.

 

[Sansha]

I am one of these supposed "nice guys", and all I find it equates to is never being romantically involved due to an inability to find someone truly attractive without first forming a strong friendship. This, combined with the fact that I treat everyone with an equal respect regardless of gender, race or sexuality, makes me a terrible, modern, phony, pansy "liberal". Funny how stuff works like that... But alas, if sex is the issue here then count me out. At the end of the day, the lonelier you get, the more difficult it is to want to try.

You sound a bit like the type, really. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, because you seem to be acutely aware of it, and honestly if you look after yourself and live like an adult, there's nothing wrong with you.

But I will say that if you find a girl attractive, you must let that be known from the get-go. You have to flirt, fuck her with your eyes, that kind of thing, while being your usual self. If she doesn't get the right vibe from you, she's going to lose interest quickly and settle comfortably into friendship while staying on the lookout for other potential mates - who won't be you.

You have five minutes to let a girl know you're romantically/sexually attracted to her. Make your intentions and desires clear, and go from there.

You can't be 'just friends' for a long time. You can't waste time when it comes to wooing women - it really is like fishing. You gotta use the right bait, and haul her in before someone else does.

Source: ten years of dating experience.

 

[Yopaz]

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

It's this, but there's a little bit more to it. We all show ourselves off from our best sides when we try to get in a relationship, guy or girl. We don't start off by saying we're terrible human beings, that we're boring or some such when we are interested in them. It has been referred to as Nice GuyTM on occasions.

It's basically that guy who's there for his special someone all the time. When she fights with her boyfriend (always an asshole ALWAYS) he's there for her telling her how she deserves better, how great she is and all that crap. When she breaks up with her boyfriend he's a shoulder for her to cry on and she's easy picking. He's been there for all the crap when she was in a relationship, now this guy deserves to get laid and it better be the best damn sex he's ever had after all that whining, crying and pretending to care about her feelings.

That is the Nice Guy stereotype. We see it all the times in movies how this guy gets the girl, so some may want to emulate it, but without the plot actually revolving about this person it's not really a strategy to get laid. It's a strategy to be labelled a creep. I'm not sure about the existence of these people, but they might be real. I'm not a girl so I haven't met them myself, but they might be real.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

I was talking to this guy, but every time I finished a sentence he pulled out his phone and started typing something and then started staring blankly for several moments before responding. It was kinda creepy.

Wait - that was YOU?

Dayum... I think I need a more expensive phone.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

As a former nice guy:

It's an appalling title. Guys declare them to be 'nice guys', because it's their only quality. They have no other interests, or qualities about themselves other than being standard people. You don't get points for acting like a normal human being.

But I will say that if you find a girl attractive, you must let that be known from the get-go. You have to flirt, fuck her with your eyes, that kind of thing, while being your usual self. If she doesn't get the right vibe from you, she's going to lose interest quickly and settle comfortably into friendship while staying on the lookout for other potential mates - who won't be you.

You have five minutes to let a girl know you're romantically/sexually attracted to her. Make your intentions and desires clear, and go from there.

YES. To all of this. Very well-said in fact. There's nothing inherently worthy about being "nice", nor about hiding intentions from someone you like. I'd add a proviso to that last one that there's such a thing as "too" forward - just going up to a girl and commenting "Nice ass, wanna f--k?" in a social situation is rarely welcomed - but just hanging around her with obvious expectations but never actually asking her out or anything is going to be perceived, more often than not, as "creepy".

Damn, there's a lot of great stuff being said in this thread. I was beginning to despair that "The Escapist" was going the way of becoming a place where mature conversation couldn't exist without someone starting a shouting match or something. Thanks for proving me wrong.

 

[Ieyke]

So I've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/11083-The-History-And-Abuse-of-The-Fedora], which for the most part seemed interesting and believable enough.

However, one particular statement confused me, and I suppose it is something that somewhat relates to previous discussions on this subforum.

Women have largely pegged this uniform as belonging to the so-called "nice guys" that think being decent to a woman is a ticket into her bed. I'm sorry about that, but it's true. (For what it's worth, I asked two women outside the gaming community what kind of men they associate black fedoras with. Answer: Creep, avoid immediately.)

Wait, really? There is such a stereotype? Honestly, I know of many stereotypes relating to nerd culture, and I know that "normal" women tend to be less than impressed with a lot of these stereotypes. But the quoted statement, if the rest of the article hadn't been so believable, I'd just call bullshit on that. As it is, maybe there's something I don't understand, maybe somebody can shed light on this for me.

Let's start here: Somebody is a thoughtful and considerate person("nice guy"). Their attempts to sway women go along the same lines - After all, in order to win somebody's affection, isn't the most sensible approach to show them that you care about them and respect them?

Now here's the first contradiction. Such a person would not believe their actions to be a "ticket" to anybody's bed. After all, if they truly are considerate, they know full well that the other person has their own feelings and preferences. They would consider their own "being nice" simply as a way to show their own interest for that person, and then leave it to the other person to decide how much of that interest they wish to return.

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Honestly, this whole thing confuses me.

This is a stereotype that exists, yes. But only because people are idiots.
It's hard to delineate where the idiocy is really happening in regards to this though. It's pretty massively stupid all-round.

But yea, you nailed it. This has nothing to do with nice guys. It's just an extension of the 80% of guys who are all assholes.

 

[Hctap]

I'm a nice guy .
But I believe actions speak louder than words.

 

[Charli]

If you've never been on the receiving end of 'nice guy syndrome' it's likely you'll not believe it exists...



It does. By the way, just for the record.

Though some people have elaborated on it. It's not a stereotype. It's assholes trying to get wise. They're already assholes they're just using a tactic.

 

[LetalisK]

As a former nice guy:

It's an appalling title. Guys declare them to be 'nice guys', because it's their only quality. They have no other interests, or qualities about themselves other than being standard people. You don't get points for acting like a normal human being.
Saying you're a nice guy is like your theme park's only quality is that the rides won't kill you.

So a girl knows you're nice. What else? Are you smart? Funny? Interesting? Talented? Ambitious? Creative? Because there's another guy out there who's perfectly 'nice', and he's halfway through med-school, plays lacrosse and writes songs in his spare time.

She's probably working at that coffee shop to pay her college tuition, and she at least looks out for her health since she's so cute. She at least moisturizes her fucking face you greasy shit.

I despise the title 'nice guy'. It's an insult. I realized I was one a while ago, abandoned relationships altogether and unfucked my life. Spent two years single. Got healthy, got into a sport, made friends and, by luck for being in the right place, got an awesome job. Now I'm dating an amazing woman.

I'm 26 and my life is perfect. Nice guys do finish last.

Yep, being nice should be considered the standard, not a quality. Oh, you're nice? Congratulations, you done worked your way up to a zero.

Of course, it's even worse for the Nice Guy since they're rarely actually nice, but rather confuse wishy-washy for nice.

 

[Cloned31]

I know it's actually a thing but it's bullshit. Though I think in one instance its a worthy phrase to say. Particullary because it happened to me about a year ago. If you are dating the girl already for at least 5 months,she cheats on you then breaks up with you, then decides to try and call you to talk about her problems because you are such a nice guy. In that case I would consider it to be appropriate to use "friendzoned", but let's be honest here, if this happens to you the phrase "friendzone" probably doesn't contextualize your feelings completely towards the situation so "Fuck that *****" is a much more appropriate phrase in this case.

Christ, this forum is like therapy for me.

Anywho, I think it exists and is annoying. It's being perpetuated by both the media and nerd culture in general. I mean every movie about a nerd who gets the girl has perpetuated this. Though I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have movies where the good guy gets the girl, I just think it should be said that, it doesn't happen all the time.

Just another bullshit arbitrary standard we lay for women. Aren't we Nice Guys?

 

[DeimosMasque]

I'm a "nice guy" who has recovered. For years I did exactly what most of the stereotypical "nice guys" do. Off the top of my head I can think of four girls I did the "nice guy" routine to. I'd be so nice to them while they stuck with their "bad boyfriends" and hear about all the bullshit they went though and for some reason thought that would mean they would date me after it ended (and all those relationships did end)

Here was the the thing, I was very wrong. I thought back then only "assholes" got the girl. And the whole line of "Nice Guys Finish Last" was a real thing. The truth of the matter was I was actually ignoring girls who were interested in me because I was overly focused on girls who weren't interested. Those girls that I focused all my attention on as friends made it so I missed opportunities elsewhere.

Just because I thought those girls were "everything to me." I'd write poetry to them that I never read to them. I'd just be their friend and was -sure- that when they were single they would recognize how I was there for them and want to be with me. Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

When I did actually break out of my "nice guy" phase I was at a coffee shop with a few friends and too attractive girls in front of me... I was more interested in one of them, but they weren't interested in me the same way. So on a literal whim I decided to stop with the long play and asked out the other girl as they were leaving... I dated that girl for three years.

What it taught me was that the "long play" of being the "nice guy" was the wrong idea. Of course you should treat every girl as a friend if you like them, and you should always respect them. But if a girl is uninterested for whatever reason, she's -not- interested. After my relationship with the girl I mentioned previously ended, I eventually got another girl who I liked. That only lasted six months but it lead me to my lady (going on 10 years on April 14th)

That's the real problem with it all. You can be the "nice guy" all you want but all your doing is being an ass. You're basically giving your kindness to them because you think that's the way to their heart. It's not. Letting them know how you feel, treating them as people, that's the way to do it. Just being the "nice guy" only sets yourself for failure because you aren't doing certain things that need to be done:

Sharing your feelings about them, asking them out and being yourself.

And don't get me wrong, those things are scary as hell! The reason I was the "nice guy" for so long was because of self-esteem issues that I had to get over. And oddly enough, putting myself out there and opening myself up to rejection is the reason I got over those issues.

It's a weird case where the cure is painful, but not as painful as the loneliness and pain that comes from just trying to be the "nice guy."

 

[wulf3n]

If you've never been on the receiving end of 'nice guy syndrome' it's likely you'll not believe it exists...



It does. By the way, just for the record.

Though some people have elaborated on it. It's not a stereotype. It's assholes trying to get wise. They're already assholes they're just using a tactic.

I don't buy it. Maybe if being nice actually worked I could see it being a "tactic" but when has just being "nice" ever gotten anyone laid.

To me the much more likely situation is that this whole "nice guy" phenomena is nothing more than the socially inept doing the only thing they know how to show someone they care, and then overreact when the inevitably get rejected, lashing out because rejection hurts, doubly so when you've built the person up to be something more than they are.

 

[Charli]

If you've never been on the receiving end of 'nice guy syndrome' it's likely you'll not believe it exists...



It does. By the way, just for the record.

Though some people have elaborated on it. It's not a stereotype. It's assholes trying to get wise. They're already assholes they're just using a tactic.

I don't buy it. Maybe if being nice actually worked I could see it being a "tactic" but when has just being "nice" ever gotten anyone laid.

To me the much more likely situation is that this whole "nice guy" phenomena is nothing more than the socially inept doing the only thing they know how to show someone they care, and then overreact when the inevitably get rejected, lashing out because rejection hurts, doubly so when you've built the person up to be something more than they are.

That what it is. Nice guy syndrome is a jerk off who does so with the INTENT to get laid. And when does not, gets frustrated and calls women bitches and god knows what else. Or in the more milder cases, just get all frustrated and then break off the friendship the other person thought they had.

And yes assholes can play nice and get laid, again you need to on the receiving end, so...doubt all you like, I've had enough shoulder crying sessions laid on me by naive friends to know when it's been employed.

But Nice Guy syndrome is more commonly a person who is overly nice to the object of their affection with the intent of sexual favors as a reward. Asinine and selfish, and I've known at least 2 guys doing this in my life, introverted, nice as friends, but really did not get how to forge a more serious relationship, so wasted weeks and months of their lives doing 'favors' for their targets and then getting all huffy and enraged at the world when said favours did not result in ...well you get the idea.

They were both smacked on the head by yours truly.

 

[wulf3n]

That what it is. Nice guy syndrome is a jerk off who does so with the INTENT to get laid. And when does not, gets frustrated and calls women bitches and god knows what else. Or in the more milder cases, just get all frustrated and then break off the friendship the other person thought they had.

I'm not questioning the definition. I'm questioning it's existence in reality.

And yes assholes can play nice and get laid, again you need to on the receiving end, so...doubt all you like, I've had enough shoulder crying sessions laid on me by naive friends to know when it's been employed.

But it's not just being nice that gets them laid, if it were this wouldn't be a thing.

But Nice Guy syndrome is more commonly a person who is overly nice to the object of their affection with the intent of sexual favors as a reward. Asinine and selfish, and I've known at least 2 guys doing this in my life, introverted, nice as friends, but really did not get how to forge a more serious relationship, so wasted weeks and months of their lives doing 'favors' for their targets and then getting all huffy and enraged at the world when said favours did not result in ...well you get the idea.

They were both smacked on the head by yours truly.

Exactly my point, they didn't know how to forge a more serious relationship. The worst part is that you seemed to know they were socially inept, but rather than explain to them how their attitude was wrong you decided to assault them.

This whole topic wreaks of picking on the kid with learning difficulties.

 

[Vegosiux]

Or in the more milder cases, just get all frustrated and then break off the friendship the other person thought they had.

Not sure what's wrong with that, honestly. I mean, nobody should be forced to be in a relationship they don't want to be in, and if they don't want to be friends, well, they don't want to be friends. They don't owe their "friendship" to anyone any more than any woman owes them her private parts because they were nice to her. I just find it a bit of a double standard. Being "nice" to someone doesn't mean you can take them for granted when you make moves on them (which is 100% true, it doesn't), but someone being nice to you makes it okay to take them for granted? That's...not really good, is it?

And just because I'm feeling cheeky, you're better off without such a "friend" anyway, unless you're only in it for the pampering.

PS: I've actually "cut contact" with many women who were not romantically interested in me (and some that were!), not out of spite though, people just drift apart sometimes. And sometimes it's a real shame we do

 

[mindfaQ]

What? The nice guy stereotype has anything to do with women? It though it was just general being nice without specific reason.
Also I would note that being nice to women actually makes it harder to get her into their bed, just makes you more potential child raising material, after she's had enough adventures. I'm not saying this is true for all women, but most women like a strong leading male rather than someone on their level, when it's about sex.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

Hrm, I definitely understand where the hate comes from here. Seems like these "Nice Guys" are definitely doing something that's not good for them or anyone else.

Most of this topic makes me feel pretty bad, or at least self-conscious, since I've done some of this kinda crap at least in private. Mostly the part of wondering "why do people who seem to be terrible asshole people get girlfriends?" Thankfully I did that in private for the most part, although I can think of a few times where I've said it to others. I'm also happy to note that the last time I knew a woman who I was friends with and we went out and things basically misfired and she wasn't interested, we were and are still friends. She's not a ***** or only likes assholes or anything else. We just didn't click (and I kinda blew it, but that's another story) and that was okay. When my ex told me she's dating another guy (we're still friends, which is apparently weird to everyone I know), I figured he was probably a good person (which, after talking to him over several games of League, he is.)

But as much as I understand I violate certain conventions of this personality-type, I still feel bad since I recognize some parts of it in me. Thankfully I stopped wearing fedoras. Thinking I might hit a proper hat store sometime soon and see if they can tell me what will actually work for me.

I have to ask, though: Everyone here certainly has a right to decry how awful this is and everything, but what do you say to people like me who notice themselves in at least some of what you're saying? What do you tell someone who says "Wow! I never realized I was acting like such a douche! How do I become better and break this habit?"

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Nice guys do finish last.

They say they're nice guys, but always reminding everyone that we jerks suffer from premature ejaculation ;_; (ha-HA! Good one, Marvelous)

OT again: This is kind of something I didn't notice until I considered my friend and her boyfriend, maybe some of the problem we have here is that it's kinda indiscriminate. I think some people have touched on this (I did briefly even) but the nice guys probably need some kind of guiding hand to know when a girl is actually interested. Or, in my philosophy, if they are close to the relationship-zone, which is a teeny tiny spot located inside the friendzone (because if you want them to be your girlfriend, you should probably work at least a little on the second part of that word)