Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Tsukuyomi]

One more thing that I'd like to put in here is that a few posts I've read have had people pointing out that in some cases the guys in question may be confused as all living hell by the media and life in general.

I'm kind of one of those guys.

Obviously if a girl isn't interested in me a girl isn't interested. That's fine and I respect that. I don't wanna waste anyone's time or make anyone feel uncomfortable. I don't wanna be a creep or a douche or anything else. I'm just looking for someone who I can laugh with and hopefully make them laugh with my own little brand of humor, have fun with, relax around, trade a feeling or two and, yes it would be nice if at some point we might get around to having sex.

Yes, sex is that low on my list of priorities because I know that not only do I NOT have the raw animal magnetism to simply chase sex and get it, but it's probably the WORST thing I can be looking for as the type of person that I am. When I feel lonely, it's because I feel lonely, not because I haven't gotten laid. The latter is waaaaaaayyyy less of an issue or a feeling than the former. I can ignore the latter, the former just builds up over time as I push it and kick it into a corner so I can ignore it and carry on with life and more important matters until I'm sitting here one night and it breaks it's bonds and....jesus christ is it bad by that time. I can tell the difference between "I need a hug and someone to love" and "I need sex". It's really not that hard.

But THEN we get into society and this culture and there's about a fifteen million rules, expectations, double-standards, and things that just plain old have no logic or explanation. That's FINE to me, though.

What confuses me is stuff like this topic. I'm just trying to muddle through life trying to find a person I can have a connection with and that I can share some love with (I'd use the word "intimacy" but that has become rather synonymous with sex these days so sadly I can't.)

I'm nice to people, but that's bad. But I'm also a bit of an asshole to people that deserve it, so that's good? But that's also bad because people don't like jerks. I want sex on occasion, and that's okay because everyone does, but I'm a scumbag if I go out looking for just that?

It even extends into life in general, beyond romantic areas. Don't worry, after high school people won't judge you. People accept you for who you are in the REAL world. Oh really? Then why does my salary and ultimately my employment status rely on someone JUDGING me? Everyone is special. Oh really? Then why am I NOT as awesome as you stroked my ego into thinking I am? Genetics doesn't count for much in society unless you got the right end of the stick.

My point is: Yes, some of us are confused. DAMN confused. I've come to realize over the years that life, despite our best efforts, is one big gooey mess of strange stuff that happens for strange reasons or no reasons at all. Sometimes it's awesome. Sometimes it's not. The best we can do is muddle through it and learn from our mistakes, gathering these random bits of floatsam and clinging to them in the hope they can help us get to a place in our lives where we can find some kind of peace and happiness.

Instead of punishing us for being confused, (the genuinely confused of us, mind. The ones who are the real "Nice Guy" stereotypes can burn in a fire for making things worse for the rest of us) help us along. The entirety of this topic doesn't make me think: "oh! this is an interesting read!" It makes me think: "oh jesus I've DONE some of this stuff before. Apparently I'm a terrible person just like Glados told me I was."

So yeah...I'm confused, we're all confused. This, as illuminating as parts of it is, doesn't help.

 

[Raioken18]

So yeah...I'm confused, we're all confused. This, as illuminating as parts of it is, doesn't help.

Ok, lets see if I can provide some advice. Mainly because your post kind of reminds me of myself.

1. Seeking a relationship out of loneliness is the wrong way to go about it. If you aren't happy being you, adding someone else to that situation isn't going to make it any better. Try to better your life! Not to eventually be in a relationship, but because you want to be awesome, YOU!

2. You are completely right about people judging you. They even do it more often than you think, however most people won't tell you what they actually think of you. Leading to situations where most people feel entitled to more than they are worth. Also yes, your position in society counts for a lot.

3. I'd hate to tell you this but... you sound like you may be one of us. A "Nice Guy" stereotype. It's not your fault but there are a few organisational things you can do. The one I used was:

Set 10 goals for yourself to complete each week.
Achievable goals i.e. run every day, apply for x number of jobs, read a chapter in a book, write something.

The first week, you probably are going to do one or two... it's not good enough.

You have to work on doing them until you set 10 goals each week and are inclined to complete them because they benefit you.

Lastly... Just stop trying to analyse the world around you as if it owes you something. Try to participate in the world instead.

Also just quietly, it's ok to be an asshole to someone who deserves it, you know why? They deserve it! XD

 

[Riot3000]

Thing is, at least around here, these terms have not been tossed about by guys lamenting unrequited love, but in the majority of cases, by people making threads "Hey, how about those nice guys whining about friendzone", "Is friendzone a thing?" (a bit like this thread), and sometimes a reactionary "Stop bashing" thread. Even reading though the Advice Forum, where such a predicament ("girl trouble") happens rather often, I literally don't remember any NiceGuy? whining about having been friendzoned.

That is the same thing I have noticed. I see more people ragging on this "nice guy" thing or ragging on the friend zone than I see the actual thing. Even in some threads I see more people sounding off on saying "friend zone doesn't exist" or making that stupid analogy about "tokens" to ad nauseum. I think the haters out weigh the actual thing.

snip

There is no "women". They are all different and nobody has a license to speak for 52% of earth's population.
There is a "nice guy" trap, where a guy thinks he's being nice, but he's really being manipulative.

This doesn't mean that being nice is a bad thing, it only means that being nice and then expecting something in return isn't really all that nice.

In Muhammad Ali's words: "If you are annoyed that after you hold a door open, the person walking through doesn't say "thank you", you weren't really holding open the door."

Personally, I try to be good guy, but I'm sure there are plenty who would call me an asshole. These things are really in the eye of the beholder.

For further reading, this website might help: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/comments6.shtml

You know someone earlier made a good point if you are getting your view and opinion of a nice guy from some blog then you are doing yourself and others a huge disservice. That reductionist nonsense is really not going to help anyone but just provide confirmation bias for people. Heartlessbitches is a rant fest of random that can make the MRA blush so again its is doing a great disservice to get info about from any of those two blogospheres.

 

[DoctorObviously]

You know what I'm getting so tired of? When you compliment somebody - be it man or woman - that they look visually attractive, they always seem to HEAR you but not LISTEN to you. They can never say: "Oh, my, thank you. That's very kind of you. I'll remember that." but always say: "No, you're wrong, I've always been told that I'm ugly so much that I'm thinking this way of myself."

FINE THEN, BE UGLY, JEEZ.

Seriously, where are the adult women?

 

[kurupt87]

Snip

There is no "women". They are all different and nobody has a license to speak for 52% of earth's population.

That's not necessarily true, social conditioning does exist and (pulling a figure out of my arse but it won't be too far wrong) it says that 8/10 women will be and will prefer to be the submissive partner in a relationship. Just like 8/10 men will be and will prefer to be the dominant. Neither is good, neither is bad; it's just what society has moulded us to be.

It is not therefore surprising then that the 2/10 men that act, frankly, like doormats are left wanting by the majority 8/10 of women.

Those ratios slacken off as people age, their personalities gradually become more sculpted by the self than the society, but they will remain favouring the originals.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

I don't think I've ever seen non-trolls rag on someone on the internet just for lamenting about unrequited love. I've only seen people rag on people who blame women for their unrequited love.

Or blame men. Kind of getting tired of reading "reputable" new's sites that talk about "Where all the good men have gone". It seems it's always the other gender right?

And that's the point that really undermines your whole post. It's not that "Nice Guys" are unhappy. It's not that "Nice Guys" are doing it wrong. It's that "Nice Guys" think they are entitled to love, and if they aren't getting it, then it must be the fault of someone else.

So true. Others have already commented on the social aspect that's creating that entitlement. Bugs the shit out of me.

Make a thread about how bummed you are that a girl you like doesn't like you back, and I'm fairly sure the worst that will happen is that your thread will be forgotten because no one will care. But the moment you start tossing around terms like "friendzoned" or claiming that women only like bad guys, that's when you're going to start getting some ire.

But talking about things we all agree on gets boring!

1. Seeking a relationship out of loneliness is the wrong way to go about it. If you aren't happy being you, adding someone else to that situation isn't going to make it any better. Try to better your life! Not to eventually be in a relationship, but because you want to be awesome, YOU!

Oh dear god yes! Unfortunately, there is a massive chunk of people who seek relationships because they are lonely. One of those "just want someone to snuggle with" crap that I see all the time. I don't see that problem ever going away though; actively seeking relationships indicates an inherent loneliness, or whatever you prefer to call it.

2. You are completely right about people judging you. They even do it more often than you think, however most people won't tell you what they actually think of you. Leading to situations where most people feel entitled to more than they are worth. Also yes, your position in society counts for a lot.

This is one of the reasons I remain single to this day. I'll be professional about things at first, usually they don't care to know the reasons. I don't much care for them either; I'm not going to change and I'm interested in someone who's interested in me as I am, not what they want me to be. Likewise, I'm looking for specific things and I'm rather blunt about it when people don't possess said traits, or they possess the exact opposite.

It usually goes like this...
Thanks, but I'm not interested, good luck.
I'm not interested.
No, because X.
I'm done talking to you.

Most people are good with the first. I've had a few push me beyond that because they either needed closure or they wanted to argue with me. Certain women have demonstrated the same callous nature that "Nice guys" do during the rejection phase.

(Incoming stereotype) I've noticed the inflated sense of self worth, especially prevalent in the female gender, just given the supply/demand ratio in the dating paradigm. It's interesting to view the reactions of women who have their desirability challenged through disinterest (and personally for me, *because* of their inflated sense of self worth). But most people are fairly hypocritical when it comes to these dynamics, no one really likes being judged on the negative.

 

[Vegosiux]

Oh dear god yes! Unfortunately, there is a massive chunk of people who seek relationships because they are lonely. One of those "just want someone to snuggle with" crap that I see all the time. I don't see that problem ever going away though; actively seeking relationships indicates an inherent loneliness, or whatever you prefer to call it.

Hey, that's not crap ^^ I had a "snuggle friend" myself. With the agreement that if whichever of us finds someone they want a deeper relationship with, it ends.

It ended because we somehow simply drifted apart in the end, though. I was sad for a while, and miss her still sometimes, but that's just how it is. Life goes on.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Hey, that's not crap ^^ I had a "snuggle friend" myself. With the agreement that if whichever of us finds someone they want a deeper relationship with, it ends.

It ended because we somehow simply drifted apart in the end, though. I was sad for a while, and miss her still sometimes, but that's just how it is. Life goes on.

It's crap because it's one of the more childish ways to go about it. If they want someone to snuggle they can buy a fucking teddy bear. If they use colloquialisms like "cuddle buddy" instead of just asking for sex, they are not mature or direct enough for my tastes.

And probably part of the reason we get threads like this one. People need to fucking be honest with each other about fucking.

 

[Riot3000]

Oh dear god yes! Unfortunately, there is a massive chunk of people who seek relationships because they are lonely. One of those "just want someone to snuggle with" crap that I see all the time. I don't see that problem ever going away though; actively seeking relationships indicates an inherent loneliness, or whatever you prefer to call it.

Hey, that's not crap ^^ I had a "snuggle friend" myself. With the agreement that if whichever of us finds someone they want a deeper relationship with, it ends.

It ended because we somehow simply drifted apart in the end, though. I was sad for a while, and miss her still sometimes, but that's just how it is. Life goes on.

Also I find that whole thing disingenuous don't seek a relationship because you are feeling lonely. Cut the fat and really that is the point relationships is to not be lonely you know human social animals evo psych blah bleeb blah. All this stuff assertive and stating it in the beginning but don't actively seek?. Its like in attempt to simplify this its just becomes more convoluted.

Sorry to hear about that people you know drifting away is hard thing at times whether it is family, lovers, or friends I am pretty sure a lot of people know the feeling.

 

[Grahav]

I'm coming to this conversation fairly late, but I think the most important thing to remember about inter-gender dynamics is this: always pay attention to context and perspective because they will often determine how people view these issues. A girl might think a particular "nice guy" is an entitled creep. A guy might think a girl is a selfish user. "Surprisingly", they both might be talking about the exact same situation, and there's a decent chance they might both be right. Even an appeal to third party observation typically solves nothing; there are plenty of people on both sides of such debates, all of them armed with powerful personal anecdotes and/or "statistics" aimed at demonstrating, unequivocally, the rightness of their side.

For the most part, it's a bunch of tricky alternate language deployed in an attempt to dress-up the age-old conflicts and hurt feelings that arise whenever and wherever human courtship rears its head. Despite the best wishes of many, and the explicit demands of so many online dating profiles, romantic entanglements frequently involve drama. That drama manifests in nuanced and multifaceted fashions, and the notion that we can somehow crystallize such interactions into digestible little bits of wisdom and custom is ridiculous.

If, however, we're going to dive headlong into these kinds of discussions, we should at least be methodical and respectful of both sides. When a gal finds out all of the affection she'd been soaking up was, in fact, some sort of bargain for her intimacy, she feels mislead. She's logically upset, yes, but might she also be indulging in overly reductive reasoning? If you want to head down the road of distilling/dividing human behavior into two distinct camps, "the stuff we do for free" and "the stuff we do for exchange", I've got some bad news for you: there's only one camp. So where do we draw the line between acceptable versus unacceptable "exchange-based" behavior? Who draws it?

You know who else feels mislead? The guy who internalized pretty much a life-time of media and real-life women telling him how to attract a woman (be sweet, be her friend, be asexual, etc.) only to find out none of that amounts to a damn thing. The only deciding factor is the chemistry of raw attraction, and that can never be negotiated or manipulated - not in the way society has programmed young men to behave. So those young men, upon failing, become confused and upset as well - especially when so much of what they contributed to the "courtship" involved valuable commodities like time, opportunity, and money. It should be noted: there are more than a few women out there who will gladly suck up these commodities knowing they can't/won't reciprocate the deeper feelings that are (almost always) obvious.

There's also the male/female divide when considering things like "relationship equity". By in large, men believe in it. It's a very deductive principle. It's also completely wrong. There aren't, unfortunately, many sources telling people such things. Probably because a lot of groups directly profit from the continued wayward fumblings of so many confused mislead people.

Anyways, I've rambled for quite a bit. If only one thing can stand out, though, it should be this: these things are ridiculously complex with a ton of variables related to context and, often times, the individual. Anyone who buys into the sweeping generalizations of this MRA blog or that Social Justice tumblr is doing everyone, including themselves, a disservice.

Yours was the best post.

I have thought about the "relationship equity" during the day.

A certain imbalance is that if an average genuinely nice woman falls for a guy she has better chances of getting him to notice her than an average genuinely nice guy has for a woman to notice him.

What bothers a lot of men is the amount of qualities they feel pressured to pile up to date: Be confident, charming, professional, elegant, etc. It is similar to the pressures that women feel: Be charming, funny, seductive, beautifful, etc.

A world of resents.

This lady, said it the best way:

 

[Vegosiux]

Hey, that's not crap ^^ I had a "snuggle friend" myself. With the agreement that if whichever of us finds someone they want a deeper relationship with, it ends.

It ended because we somehow simply drifted apart in the end, though. I was sad for a while, and miss her still sometimes, but that's just how it is. Life goes on.

It's crap because it's one of the more childish ways to go about it. If they want someone to snuggle they can buy a fucking teddy bear. If they use colloquialisms like "cuddle buddy" instead of just asking for sex, they are not mature or direct enough for my tastes.

And probably part of the reason we get threads like this one. People need to fucking be honest with each other about fucking.

But what I meant is that there was no sex involved and we were both completely happy with that. Some sort of a romantic, yet non-sexual friendship.

Please do not denigrate the value of that by calling it crap. It was real nice ^^

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

But what I meant is that there was no sex involved and we were both completely happy with that. Some sort of a romantic, yet non-sexual friendship.

Honestly I'm not sure if that's better or worse (I'm legitimately confused by the recent mainstream attention/progress of the "cuddle community"). But as far as the discussion we find ourselves in; it's worse. You wanted an intimate emotional romantic connection with someone without the physical component (bizarre but sure, whatever floats your boat). That's all fine and dandy, but this just adds to the varied myriad layers of human relationships that blurs together at the end of the day. Now if someone is up front about that, I say more power to them. But on the other hand, I can see arguments where that type of behavior is entirely selfish; considering you're using someone for emotional intimacy but screwing someone else (or wanting more, whatever). Likewise the reverse, where someone merely wants to use you physically, but gains their emotional intimacy with a 3rd party. And yes, I'm one of the first proponents of sex not being the same thing as love, etc.

Again though, if all parties are on the same page, I can't really argue against it. But when they're not, or they want a change of relationship status, that's where we get issues like this thread.

The reply was directed at those seeking out relationships *specifically* because they don't want to be alone. People who can only identify themselves as part of a couple, etc. A subtle difference from what your situation was I think. And hey, empathizing-bro-fist for a second; my "never-quite-identified-relationship" ended because while she enjoyed spending time with me, screwing me, and all the grand things about being with me, she didn't see us staying together so was searching for that kind of guy for the duration of our "whatever-the-fuck-it-was". Bitches be crazy right bro?!

Please do not denigrate the value of that by calling it crap. It was real nice ^^

One man's treasure is another man's trash.

 

[softclocks]

snip

There is no "women". They are all different and nobody has a license to speak for 52% of earth's population.

Was this supposed to be an argument against my post? Because you're just echoing what I said.

Which doesn't explain why you quoted me.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Any guy who describes himself as `a nice guy` will usually send up warning signs to me.

Truly nice people don't need to go around telling people they're nice, and can usually find better positive attributes about themselves than the `nice` label. Nice is pretty basic.

Now I'm a guy so I never had a "nice guy" come onto me but this is kind of a brilliant observation. If you have to tell people that you're something, you are almost certainly not that. I had more to say on that but you encompassed that idea completely in a few sentences here so I'll move onto the truly "nice guys" rather than the ones using the "nice guy" card.

OT: You're basically describing everyone's favorite topic "The Friend Zone", which technically exists but not in the "Oh whoa is me, the girl of my dreams doesn't realize how much I love her" and more "I keep doing nice things for this girl, why doesn't she want to bounce on my pogo-stick like the movies say she should!?!! What a tease!".

For the most part, I've noticed people who complain about that zone are some of the more pathetic people I've met. They either:

A. Truly believe that being nice to someone is the only criteria needed to get the lady to wet their whistle. When it's demonstrated that it takes a little more than being nice, they have a hissy fit.

B. They're allowing themselves to be walked on by someone who's making them dance like a puppet.

B is a bit more forgivable since they might not realize the lady is manipulating the hell out of him (even if it's obvious to everyone else around him) but it's still at least a little pathetic...

(Also note, ladies can complain about the Friend-Zone)

Those two categories even cross over a bit within the same person, even within that persons dealings with the exact same second person.

I have a friend who allowed a girl to lead him on for a very long time, well after everyone around him had stopped pretending to have anything but contempt for her and everyone had started openly telling him to stop fucking with her. This continued for far too long, and during that he complained about being in the friend zone overtly.

When he stopped allowing himself to be quite so dragged around by her though, rather than simply being happy that he was done with that insufferable *****, he still believed she in some sense owed him sex for the nice deeds he'd done for her, when in reality, while he gave her money, rides to places, and other goods, he truly never offered her anything as a suitable romantic partner.

I feel like both of these categories come into play in the same situation quite a bit, although they can certainly exist independent of each other.

 

[softclocks]

I never did quote you until now. Wake up.

YEs, I'm sorry. This other guy quoted both of us and I must've misunderstood