Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Phasmal]

If the woman in question don't want the gifts and affection, she could always say no and not put up with the behavior. Accepting these things, begrudgingly or not, is still deceitful.

Accepting gifts is deceitful?

How can accepting gifts EVER be deceitful?

You are confusing gifts with a transaction.

I wonder what the population of the Escapist would think of a woman who flat out refused to accept any gifts from men in case of any romantic intent? I imagine they would feel she certainly had `inflated sense of self-worth`.

`Well, gee, I know it's my birthday and you're my brother-in-law, but I couldn't possibly take a gift from you! What kind of girl do you think I am?`

Now, excuse me, I have to go count out the number of guys I've misled by taking gifts from them...
(counting)

Only all my friends and my boyfriends brothers.

 

[Phasmal]

I wonder what the population of the Escapist would think of a woman who flat out refused to accept any gifts from men in case of any romantic intent? I imagine they would feel she certainly had `inflated sense of self-worth`.

There is no need to put words into other people's mouth. There are plenty of stupid things being said by people themselves, that you don't need to imagine additional issues here.

I probably should have added I wasn't being completely serious there, but taking the concept of gifts as deception to its absurd conclusion.
I just think it's silly.

(Also, no one can ever tell when I'm joking around- it must be something I'm doing).

 

[Eamar]

The stereotypical "nice guy" who thinks that being "nice" to women should be enough to make them fall madly in love with him, who is only nice in the first place because he thinks it'll get him into someone's pants, and who harbours romantic feelings for his female friends but never says or implies this, then acts all furious and hurt that they didn't pick up on his feelings and "friendzoned" him (despite the fact that he only ever presented himself as a friend in the first place) etc, etc very much does exist. I have met them, and I have been the object of their "affections"...

...However, this isn't something I've encountered in real life since my mid-teens.

All it is is emotional immaturity, pure and simple. It indicates a lack of experience with real life relationships and an over-reliance on the ideas perpetuated by movies and such. I'd even say it's entirely forgiveable, even expected, in teenagers (of both genders, because let's not kid ourselves that teenage girls don't act like this too), so long as they learn from it and eventually transition to a more healthy way of looking at relationships with people of whatever gender they're attracted to, be they romantic or platonic.

I have no idea how common it is among grown men, but I'd have much less sympathy if I encountered one who acted like this. Teenagers do stupid stuff and get things completely wrong because they're still learning the basics of how to be a functional human being. If you're still acting like this in your twenties and beyond, I'd say its more likely to be indicative of some major personality flaws and worrying attitudes towards other people in general. As I said though, this isn't something I've encountered in the adult world, so I like to think its prevalence is exaggerated on the internet.

 

[invadergaz]

The stereotypical "nice guy" who thinks that being "nice" to women should be enough to make them fall madly in love with him, who is only nice in the first place because he thinks it'll get him into someone's pants, and who harbours romantic feelings for his female friends but never says or implies this, then acts all furious and hurt that they didn't pick up on his feelings and "friendzoned" him (despite the fact that he only ever presented himself as a friend in the first place) etc, etc very much does exist. I have met them, and I have been the object of their "affections"...

...However, this isn't something I've encountered in real life since my mid-teens.

All it is is emotional immaturity, pure and simple. It indicates a lack of experience with real life relationships and an over-reliance on the ideas perpetuated by movies and such. I'd even say it's entirely forgiveable, even expected, in teenagers (of both genders, because let's not kid ourselves that teenage girls don't act like this too), so long as they learn from it and eventually transition to a more healthy way of looking at relationships with people of whatever gender they're attracted to, be they romantic or platonic.

I have no idea how common it is among grown men, but I'd have much less sympathy if I encountered one who acted like this. Teenagers do stupid stuff and get things completely wrong because they're still learning the basics of how to be a functional human being. If you're still acting like this in your twenties and beyond, I'd say its more likely to be indicative of some major personality flaws and worrying attitudes towards other people in general. As I said though, this isn't something I've encountered in the adult world, so I like to think its prevalence is exaggerated on the internet.

I am dating women in their early to mid-thirties and some of them are have been married before and I can tell you some women are just as guilty of romanticizing relationships even to the point of wanting the Disney experience. I dont think its a sign of emotional immaturity so much as baggage and hurts from past relationships

 

[Eamar]

I am dating women in their early to mid-thirties and some of them are have been married before and I can tell you some women are just as guilty of romanticizing relationships even to the point of wanting the Disney experience. I dont think its a sign of emotional immaturity so much as baggage and hurts from past relationships

Cool story, but I never said anything about over-romanticising relationships. I was talking about the belief that if you're a decent human being to someone/just really like someone for long enough they'll eventually fall in love with you without any additional input on your part. That's more specific than just over-romanticising in general (which is also a problem, just not the same one).

 

[invadergaz]

I am dating women in their early to mid-thirties and some of them are have been married before and I can tell you some women are just as guilty of romanticizing relationships even to the point of wanting the Disney experience. I dont think its a sign of emotional immaturity so much as baggage and hurts from past relationships

Cool story, but I never said anything about over-romanticising relationships. I was talking about the belief that if you're a decent human being to someone/just really like someone for long enough they'll eventually fall in love with you without any additional input on your part. That's more specific than just over-romanticising in general (which is also a problem, just not the same one).

Yes, you did. You said romance perpetuated by movies whereas I just called it Disney. They may be different problems, but they are indemic with how the different genders process romance and relationships. One can play the nice guy because of past hurts whereas the other is looking for perfection in another partner. Both men and women have issues and your post came off as overly hostile to young men and their immaturity

 

[Raesvelg]

I think this applies somewhat to the "nice guy" scenario - http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/

The screaming hypocrisy of that article was that, for all intents and purposes, it reduced the entire purpose of self-improvement down to a scheme for getting laid. It effectively advocates donning a facade in order to fool women into sleeping with you...

Which is, of course, the equivalent of the stereotypical "nice guy" that the article is focused at.

The "nice guy" isn't being nice because he was raised not to be a douche, he's being nice because he figures it's a low-cost, low-risk way of getting laid. All he has to be is nice, after all; he doesn't have to assume any of the risks of actually pushing for a relationship, and when his strategy doesn't work, he blames the object of his affections rather than accepting the fact that she (or he, because don't kid yourselves, women can be the "nice guy" stereotype too) simply isn't interested.

The irritation factor for me in the "nice guy" stereotype is that it's become so firmly entrenched in the collective subconscious that I've had to deal with women who thought the fact that I was polite and reasonably thoughtful meant I was expressing a romantic interest, and the resulting fallout when I told them I simply wasn't interested.

The irony there, of course, is that I'm not polite to my friends. We exist in a circle of collective insults; it's how we express our affection for one another, male and female alike. If you find any of us in particular, or god forbid the group as a collective, being polite to you, it generally means your presence is simply being tolerated rather than embraced. It's not a group for people with low self esteem. At the very least, a thick skin is required.

 

[Weaver]

I am dating women in their early to mid-thirties and some of them are have been married before and I can tell you some women are just as guilty of romanticizing relationships even to the point of wanting the Disney experience. I dont think its a sign of emotional immaturity so much as baggage and hurts from past relationships

Cool story, but I never said anything about over-romanticising relationships. I was talking about the belief that if you're a decent human being to someone/just really like someone for long enough they'll eventually fall in love with you without any additional input on your part. That's more specific than just over-romanticising in general (which is also a problem, just not the same one).

Then I'm not really sure you're rallying against a group of people that really exist. I truly don't think this is the widespread epidemic everyone is making it out to be. I'm starting to believe this is just something that exists in the anecdotal fiction of the internet.

It seems to me that some guy who isn't a total douche falls in love with a friend and then everyone lambasts him for being a deceptive creep.

 

[Eamar]

Yes, you did.

No, I didn't. I'm sorry if it came across that way, but that honestly wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. I apologise if my wording was unclear.

Both men and women have issues

I specifically addressed that girls act in exactly the same way:

let's not kid ourselves that teenage girls don't act like this too

and your post came off as overly hostile to young men and their immaturity

Ok, I have no idea where you got that from, because I clearly stated that this behaviour is a natural, understandable part of being a teenager. When I spoke about "emotional immaturity" that wasn't an insult, it was a statement of fact: teenagers are immature (as in not yet fully formed, be that physically, mentally, emotionally or socially), that's why we differentiate them from adults. There's nothing wrong with that, so no hostility intended at all:

I'd even say it's entirely forgiveable, even expected, in teenagers

Then I'm not really sure you're rallying against a group of people that really exist.

I'm not "rallying against" anyone, I'm saying that this behaviour is a normal part of growing up and learning about relationships and how they work in reality. I said that hypothetically I'd be less sympathetic to an adult who acted like this, but I also said I'd never actually encountered one, so that wasn't an issue. In my experience this is a teenage thing.

I truly don't think this is the widespread epidemic everyone is making it out to be. I'm starting to believe this is just something that exists in the anecdotal fiction of the internet.

I agree with you:

As I said though, this isn't something I've encountered in the adult world, so I like to think its prevalence is exaggerated on the internet.

 

[DementedSheep]

The stereotypical "nice guy" who thinks that being "nice" to women should be enough to make them fall madly in love with him, who is only nice in the first place because he thinks it'll get him into someone's pants, and who harbours romantic feelings for his female friends but never says or implies this, then acts all furious and hurt that they didn't pick up on his feelings and "friendzoned" him (despite the fact that he only ever presented himself as a friend in the first place) etc, etc very much does exist. I have met them, and I have been the object of their "affections"...

...However, this isn't something I've encountered in real life since my mid-teens.

All it is is emotional immaturity, pure and simple. It indicates a lack of experience with real life relationships and an over-reliance on the ideas perpetuated by movies and such. I'd even say it's entirely forgiveable, even expected, in teenagers (of both genders, because let's not kid ourselves that teenage girls don't act like this too), so long as they learn from it and eventually transition to a more healthy way of looking at relationships with people of whatever gender they're attracted to, be they romantic or platonic.

I have no idea how common it is among grown men, but I'd have much less sympathy if I encountered one who acted like this. Teenagers do stupid stuff and get things completely wrong because they're still learning the basics of how to be a functional human being. If you're still acting like this in your twenties and beyond, I'd say its more likely to be indicative of some major personality flaws and worrying attitudes towards other people in general. As I said though, this isn't something I've encountered in the adult world, so I like to think its prevalence is exaggerated on the internet.

Last guy I had do this was in my first year of university which was 4 years ago but he very obviously had some issues, no confidence and was one of the types that threatens suicide if you don't date them types so not your standard.
It seems to mostly be a high school thing and that is understandable. Teenagers do many stupid things. It's part of the learning process.

Girls definitely do it to.
They do this and then go from hating the other girl and making all sorts of judgements about them to getting bitter and angry at they guy when life isn't like their fantasies and he doesn't "realise the truth" even if they never asked him out. I sat next to a girl in math who was doing this to a guy who wasn't even in the same country. She was calling the girl he was dating a ***** and paranoid because the girl asked her to stop chasing her boyfriend under the pretence of friendship which she had admitted to me she was doing!

 

[Bebus]

It certainly is "a thing", and in my experience most people who deny it are, well, usually part of it themselves possibly without realising it. Symptoms include insecurity manifesting in the form of defensively lashing out against women who offer any genuine insight into their condition. But as a post above said (and, incidentally, went on to prove with the subsequent lashing out...), it's mostly a teenage thing that thankfully most people grow out of. My source... well, ex "nice guy" here. Hello!

And it's certainly not a totally recent thing: here's a story from a website that, as far as I can tell, is well over 10 years old.

The man with no spine.

There once was a man without a spine.

He was a very likable guy. The advantage of not having a spine was that he could fit himself to anyone, and he frequently did. He could flex this way and that.

But he couldn't stand up ...

...and being kinda mushy and flat most of the time, people often walked on him without realizing he was there.

So he got sad, having this dreadful absence of a spine, and he was resentful too. He wondered why other people couldn't fit themselves to him the way he fit himself to others, but that was silly because he never felt he had the right to ask anyone directly to fit themselves to him. He was formless, what was there to fit to anyway? In cyberspace he talked tough as if he had a spine, but people could clearly see by his rage and resentment that he didn't have one in real life, and he perished in the flame wars he provoked and only came out feeling more ashamed and ineffectual.

He wished he could be with a woman, to help him the way a spine would. If he clung to a woman with a spine, he could stand up, but women didn't like it when he did that. He often called them "bitches" for the women with spines coldly asked him to let go of them, or unceremoniously shrugged him and his issues off onto the ground telling him to get his own spine.

If he fancied a spineless woman, on the other hand, he couldn't get her interest because they were looking for men with spines that they could cling to. But the spineless women would hang around with him for sympathy, and he'd be their platonic male friend and play "therapist" though he was as sick as they were. He'd often call himself a "feminist" and lecture these spineless women how to stand on their own when he had no idea of how to stand for himself.

With all the bending and flopping around he did, a spine never could get a chance to grow.

Then one day he had a brainstorm, he decided he'd make himself a spine.

He took a long stick.... and he put it far up his ass.

It was an improvement, though uncomfortable. It was the first time in his life he could walk tall, if not a bit stiff. He found he could have opinions at odds with others, and stand for them. He found out that he didn't have to be liked, that the world didn't end if he pissed someone off. He didn't want to fit easily with other people anymore, in fact he became inflexible.

People commented on the change, some people didn't particularly like him with the stick up his ass but they did notice him more. Some people felt that at least they could respect him, even if they didn't always like him because he did less whining. At least nobody stepped on him by accident.

However relationships still didn't come easy, it was hard for a woman with a spine to love him with the stick up his ass. He was stiff, cold, brutally opinionated, condescending, and self-righteously hostile. But eventually he did attract a very pretty woman without a spine who saw him as a tower of strength to cling to.

At first he loved this woman, he thought the stick up his ass was the answer to his dating problems. He was finally being loved the way he once loved others. At first it was great, and then it was good, and then it was ok, and then it was uncomfortable, and by the end of a year it was infuriatingly suffocating. The spineless woman clung like a straightjacket. The horror!!! The horror!!!

But the stick up his ass made him so inflexible he didn't know how to get the spineless woman off of him, If only he could bend. He was trapped, upright in his "obligations", "duty to her", "guilt", "pride in his commitment", he spent months with his arms helplessly flapping about trying to get her off of him and trying not to look like he was doing that.

He was hoping that she would leave by hinting her indirectly, he used sarcasic tones, said mean things that were "just a joke", neglect, "constructive" criticism intended to insult. He only made the spineless woman feel more insecure, so she clung HARDER.

Spineless men envied him, called him a jerk for the way he was treating her, just the way he remembered how he used to envy other men before he had the stick up his ass (when he'd play consoler to their teary-eyed spineless girlfreinds). If only they knew what it was like to be on the receiving end of a spineless person's embrace they'd understand. He wished she'd leave him for one of the spineless men who envied him. He felt ashamed for the way he must have made women feel in the past when he was trying to cling to them, he knew that they weren't so evil after all.

One day he decided that there was only one way to be free of the spineless woman once and for all, the stick up his ass had to go.

So he pulled the stick out, and to his amazement a miracle happened: he was still standing! All of the years of inflexibility allowed him the chance to grow a spine. At first he was still a bit stiff but eventually he had the flexibility to contort a bit and yet maintained the firmness to struggle, push, and wriggle from the spineless woman's grasp (though she protested much). He stayed far out of her reach and the reach of other spineless women so that he could never be grasped by one again.

He was overjoyed with his new-found freedom; he could bend sometimes like he used to (but not too far) and also he could stand tall. He went out, partied, enjoyed life to the fullest, and eventually found a woman with a normal spine like his.

They stood together as separate individuals giving mutual support and enjoying time alone too, and lived (relatively) "happily ever after"...

The end

<url=http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/spineless.shtml>Source (A very good website that a lot of young guys and girls can learn from)

 

[Ice Car]

...... Why am I not surprised this topic has so many replies?

OT: The nice guy stereotype is NOT discouraging people from being nice. It's about people who think being a nice person somehow entitles them to special treatment of any kind, let alone sex. So, are you a nice person, do you hold doors open for people, let people step all over you, and try to do everything for everyone? Good! Do you do it for the purpose of getting laid? If so, go away.

On a similar note, the concept of the friendzone annoys me extremely. Just because somebody doesn't want to date you when they ask you out, then somehow they're antagonizing you? Are you obligated to go out with the first person who asks you out if you're not fucking interested at all? No, fuck these people, and screw anybody who treats woman like garbage because they're simply not interested. It's not the woman being shallow in this case, it's you.

 

[Smeatza]

Ugh, no the "nice guy" stereotype isn't actually a thing.
No stereotypes are actually things. They are sets of generalised characteristics that have absoulutely no merit in the real world.

People develop feelings and often the object of their affections will not feel the same way, some deal with this poorly.
Everything else is pure theory.

snip

Let me get this straight.
Dude had no confidence, so he became an asshole.
Being an asshole got him a woman with no confidence.
And through the magic of being a an asshole and exploiting this weak individual, he developed confidence.
So he was able to cast the woman aside and get a better one, Happy Ending?

I get the message they're trying to get across here. I get what they're trying to say.
But my god they've failed.
They should have just posted a link to the Scott Pilgrim movie on amazon.

 

[Ice Car]

No stereotypes are actually things. They are sets of generalised characteristics that have absoulutely no merit in the real world.

"It has no material value, or worth, so it does not exist"

u wot m8

Intangible things like that tend to have that nature. Some of these intangible concepts don't have any purpose. They're arbitrary, and they have no bearing on anything. That does not mean they don't exist. Even if stereotypes don't matter [to you], it's still a widespread concept that is constantly being perpetuated and it affects a lot of people. Stereotyping is indeed a thing. An intangible, yet omnipresent, and all-encompassing, thing.

 

[Smeatza]

"It has no material value, or worth, so it does not exist"

u wot m8

I said nothing of the sort.

Intangible things like that tend to have that nature. Some of these intangible concepts don't have any purpose. They're arbitrary, and they have no bearing on anything.

All of which agrees with me.

That does not mean they don't exist. Even if stereotypes don't matter [to you], it's still a widespread concept that is constantly being perpetuated and it affects a lot of people. Stereotyping is indeed a thing. An intangible, yet omnipresent, and all-encompassing, thing.

Ah I see, we appear to have a bit of a misunderstanding as I never denied any of this.
I was discussing the stereotype directly so I was acknowledging it's existence just through doing that.

The stereotype "black people are thieves" exists but that doesn't make it true. Statistics might even show that more black people commit acts of theft than white people but that still doesn't mean a black individual is more likely to be a thief than a white individual.

The nice guy stereotype is just that, a stereotype.
And human beings are more complicated than stereotypes.

 

[Ice Car]

"It has no material value, or worth, so it does not exist"

u wot m8

I said nothing of the sort.

Intangible things like that tend to have that nature. Some of these intangible concepts don't have any purpose. They're arbitrary, and they have no bearing on anything.

All of which agrees with me.

That does not mean they don't exist. Even if stereotypes don't matter [to you], it's still a widespread concept that is constantly being perpetuated and it affects a lot of people. Stereotyping is indeed a thing. An intangible, yet omnipresent, and all-encompassing, thing.

Ah I see, we appear to have a bit of a misunderstanding as I never denied any of this.
I was discussing the stereotype directly so I was acknowledging it's existence just through doing that.

The stereotype "black people are thieves" exists but that doesn't make it true. Statistics might even show that more black people commit acts of theft than white people but that still doesn't mean a black individual is more likely to be a thief than a white individual.

The nice guy stereotype is just that, a stereotype.
And human beings are more complicated than stereotypes.

Ah, that makes more sense.

Still, I'd go probably go out and say that the nice guy stereotype does exist. Not necessarily that wearing a trilby automatically makes you a MRA-Activist, Nice-Guy Neckbeard, but that the stereotype of people being nice just to get attention or special treatment does exist.

The mere fact that people unironically use the word "friendzone" in any context where a girl turns them down and that this phrase is widespread should be one indicator.

 

[Smeatza]

Still, I'd go probably go out and say that the nice guy stereotype does exist. Not necessarily that wearing a trilby automatically makes you a MRA-Activist, Nice-Guy Neckbeard, but that the stereotype of people being nice just to get attention or special treatment does exist.

There are two reasons to be nice to anybody.
1). Because it feels good.
2). Because of "do unto others."
Your definition of the "nice guy" stereotype would have the second reason made invalid and the world a significantly worse place.

That's not the stereotype though is it.
The stereotype is guys that pretend to be nice, or act inordinately nice towards certain people because they want either romance or sex from them (which in itself isn't even unethical, just ignorant) and will cease to be nice when it's clear that's not what they're gonna get (which is where the shitty person part comes in).

The mere fact that people unironically use the word "friendzone" in any context where a girl turns them down and that this phrase is widespread should be one indicator.

You ever see Scrubs? that was my first exposure to the idea of the friendzone, and frankly the majority of people who use the term seem to be the same way.

"Friendzone" is just a term for unrequited feelings. "In my head she was in the girlfriend zone, in her head I was in the friend zone."
It's as simple as that. Sometimes people who are in the "friendzone" will deal with it badly and lash out at others, but that has no bearing on the term's meaning.
After all, most people in the "friendzone" deal with it maturely or refer to it in a different way (surprise surprise, a colloquial term is mostly used by young folk) and people who aren't in "the friendzone" have no opportunity to react badly to it.

 

[Ice Car]

Still, I'd go probably go out and say that the nice guy stereotype does exist. Not necessarily that wearing a trilby automatically makes you a MRA-Activist, Nice-Guy Neckbeard, but that the stereotype of people being nice just to get attention or special treatment does exist.

There are two reasons to be nice to anybody.
1). Because it feels good.
2). Because of "do unto others."
Your definition of the "nice guy" stereotype would have the second reason made invalid and the world a significantly worse place.

That's not the stereotype though is it.
The stereotype is guys that pretend to be nice, or act inordinately nice towards certain people because they want either romance or sex from them (which in itself isn't even unethical, just ignorant) and will cease to be nice when it's clear that's not what they're gonna get (which is where the shitty person part comes in).

The mere fact that people unironically use the word "friendzone" in any context where a girl turns them down and that this phrase is widespread should be one indicator.

You ever see Scrubs? that was my first exposure to the idea of the friendzone, and frankly the majority of people who use the term seem to be the same way.

"Friendzone" is just a term for unrequited feelings. "In my head she was in the girlfriend zone, in her head I was in the friend zone."
It's as simple as that. Sometimes people who are in the "friendzone" will deal with it badly and lash out at others, but that has no bearing on the term's meaning.
After all, most people in the "friendzone" deal with it maturely or refer to it in a different way (surprise surprise, a colloquial term is mostly used by young folk) and people who aren't in "the friendzone" have no opportunity to react badly to it.

I think it's both, honestly. People aren't fond of niceness, if it's faked or clearly done for selfish reasons. The stereotype isn't a negative one towards people who are genuinely nice and don't hold ill will towards others for not giving anything back to them, it's to the other people that use it as a one-way ticket to the sac.

Like, seriously. Be nice to be nice. Don't be nice to get stuff, and then get angry when you don't get said stuff. That's nasty and it's you that's making the world a worse place.

 

[Vegosiux]

Don't be nice to get stuff, and then get angry when you don't get said stuff.

That's quite human, though. I mean the "being upset about not getting something you want". Hardly anyone's a true stoic. I mean, sure, some people handle their disappointments worse than others, but you can't fault them for being disappointed if life didn't turn out the way they hoped it would have.